VNEA rules question
- Thread starter steev
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This is a valid call in VNEA. You can call a ball, pocket, and safety on an open table.
After the shot, (assuming the ball is pocketed), it's the other player's turn at the table, and they have the other group.
Edited to add this from the VNEA rules:
C. OPEN TABLE
The table is “open” when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. On an open table, all pocketed balls remain pocketed. The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups. THE TABLE IS ALWAYS OPEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BREAK SHOT. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.
“SAFETY” SHOT: For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a “safety” to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.
After the shot, (assuming the ball is pocketed), it's the other player's turn at the table, and they have the other group.
Edited to add this from the VNEA rules:
C. OPEN TABLE
The table is “open” when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. On an open table, all pocketed balls remain pocketed. The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups. THE TABLE IS ALWAYS OPEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BREAK SHOT. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.
“SAFETY” SHOT: For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a “safety” to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.
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These sentences from the rules above cover what you are asking about.
The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.
For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot.
The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.
For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot.
Hi Steev. I just called the head ref where I live to get an answer for you. no answer. Sorry.
I did take the ref cert in Vegas several years ago. I would like to be able to give you a 100% definite answer. And darn, even after several years of reffing a bit,
you can still find yourself in a spot where the answer should be an easy one, but one that may have not ever come up for you in play.
Altho I can see your point very well, I am going to go with: The player called his ball. He also called a safety. He pocketed the ball so Head bands belong to him. He doesn't have to shoot again. Shouldn't be any different than calling a ball in a pocket and also a safety at the same time even when the balls have been determined under normal play.
If he had missed the 11, and yet left the cue ball in a bad spot for yourself, the table would still be open for you, but if his safety play was good, mission accomplished altho he didn't pocket a ball.
The table is still open for yourself. You can still call a safety and leave him bad in return. You left him nothing, the table is still open. As long as either of you made a legal shot.
My 2 cents and I will try and get a hold of the ref later if your answer hasn't been answered.
I did take the ref cert in Vegas several years ago. I would like to be able to give you a 100% definite answer. And darn, even after several years of reffing a bit,
you can still find yourself in a spot where the answer should be an easy one, but one that may have not ever come up for you in play.
Altho I can see your point very well, I am going to go with: The player called his ball. He also called a safety. He pocketed the ball so Head bands belong to him. He doesn't have to shoot again. Shouldn't be any different than calling a ball in a pocket and also a safety at the same time even when the balls have been determined under normal play.
If he had missed the 11, and yet left the cue ball in a bad spot for yourself, the table would still be open for you, but if his safety play was good, mission accomplished altho he didn't pocket a ball.
The table is still open for yourself. You can still call a safety and leave him bad in return. You left him nothing, the table is still open. As long as either of you made a legal shot.
My 2 cents and I will try and get a hold of the ref later if your answer hasn't been answered.
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I totally disagree with the above opinions, and here's why.
First, the rule regarding 'safety' calls mentions pocketing an object ball, NOT calling it. these two things are very different.
Second, I hold that calling safety, by definition, precludes calling an object ball, and vice versa. Calling an intended ball implies intent to continue your turn, while calling safe does just the opposite. Doing both should actually be impossible.
If this situation arose in tournament or league play, I would argue these points very vehemently.
any other viewpoints? is this situation defined under other rulesets?
-s
First, the rule regarding 'safety' calls mentions pocketing an object ball, NOT calling it. these two things are very different.
Second, I hold that calling safety, by definition, precludes calling an object ball, and vice versa. Calling an intended ball implies intent to continue your turn, while calling safe does just the opposite. Doing both should actually be impossible.
If this situation arose in tournament or league play, I would argue these points very vehemently.
any other viewpoints? is this situation defined under other rulesets?
-s
What needs to be done is that priority needs to be established between calling a shot or calling a safe?
If the groups were established and you intend to pocket a ball during a safe, so what if the ball is called. The shot is either a safe or not simply by whether it is verbalized. If the ball was not called verbally, the stripes would still be his set unless it was a bank or slopped into another pocket, IMO.
It is not necessary to call every pocket if it is obvious what the intended pocket is. (unless the rules have changed since I was actively playing)
If the groups were established and you intend to pocket a ball during a safe, so what if the ball is called. The shot is either a safe or not simply by whether it is verbalized. If the ball was not called verbally, the stripes would still be his set unless it was a bank or slopped into another pocket, IMO.
It is not necessary to call every pocket if it is obvious what the intended pocket is. (unless the rules have changed since I was actively playing)
randy maha
Registered
Just got certified at VNEA ref school. Tenzip nailed it.
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I completely agree with this. I don't believe it is legal to call a ball and play safe at the same time. Been playing VNEA for 20 plus years and never seen it done.
What would the guy shooting say??? "The 11 in the corner,,,and safety!!?? I don't believe this is possible.
I can't believe there would be a rule like that, it makes no sense.
This reminds me of a game in the SD State 8 Ball Masters division. Shooter is in a better position if the opponent's hanger is off the table. It would be a foul to shoot it in because the rules state that you can not shoot directly at your opponent's ball to make it intentionally. Shooter brings up the question whether he could kick at the ball (not shooting directly at it). After quite a delay, it was determined to flip a coin. and the shooter lost the coin toss.
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Again, these two sentences from the rules are what you're asking about:
The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.
A safety shot is defined as a legal shot.
Yes, there have been some vehement, vociferous discussions when I was called to make a ruling, but them's the rules.
The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.
A safety shot is defined as a legal shot.
Yes, there have been some vehement, vociferous discussions when I was called to make a ruling, but them's the rules.
No kidding!!!
Steev... Just go to the web site and read the rules, it is clear as day
You may not like it but "thems the rules"
I don't understand your confusion.
Just talked to our head ref and he agrees with Tenzip.
Joel, your failure to understand my "confusion" is of little importance to me. I am merely trying to obtain a clear understanding of the situation (and maybe even make some other people think about it too). That's why I am having a discussion on an open forum about the topic. I do have strong opinions about this topic and will continue to push for understanding of my viewpoint. Please be considerate of myself and others in this discussion, or keep quiet.
here is something to add to the discussion:
a safety being a 'legal shot' means it is not a foul. it does not mean that pocketing a ball while playing safe is a 'legal pocketing' of the ball. to interpret that wording in the way that some have, no matter how official they are, is wrong IMO.
even in the face of certified refs saying otherwise, i will continue to interpret the rules this way. calling safe and calling a ball in the same shot feels like a 'move' that someone would pull to take advantage of vague wording in a rule.
for reference, i have 15 years experience playing VNEA, and have never seen someone pull this move. i was asked about it today, and had never heard of it before.
(i'm also classified as a master level player in my state, and have some top results to go with it)
-s
here is something to add to the discussion:
a safety being a 'legal shot' means it is not a foul. it does not mean that pocketing a ball while playing safe is a 'legal pocketing' of the ball. to interpret that wording in the way that some have, no matter how official they are, is wrong IMO.
even in the face of certified refs saying otherwise, i will continue to interpret the rules this way. calling safe and calling a ball in the same shot feels like a 'move' that someone would pull to take advantage of vague wording in a rule.
for reference, i have 15 years experience playing VNEA, and have never seen someone pull this move. i was asked about it today, and had never heard of it before.
(i'm also classified as a master level player in my state, and have some top results to go with it)
-s
steev, I see your point, and I have also played at a high level for at least as long as you. I never came across this situation until I started reffing 5 or 6 years ago, and then had to ask the head ref in our area about it.
It does seem a bit strange at first, but it is in line with safeties later in the game, where you can call a ball, pocket, and safe. But people generally just call safe, not the ball and pocket.
As far as "legally pocketing" the ball, or pocketing a ball on a legal shot, if it's not legally pocketed, then, by definition, it's illegally pocketed.
It does seem a bit strange at first, but it is in line with safeties later in the game, where you can call a ball, pocket, and safe. But people generally just call safe, not the ball and pocket.
As far as "legally pocketing" the ball, or pocketing a ball on a legal shot, if it's not legally pocketed, then, by definition, it's illegally pocketed.
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OK - try to hang in with this...
Well, since you asked...*sigh*...
I think I can clear things up a little for the doubters, particularly if they ever played under WSR/BCAPL rules in the past, and may be remembering those rules.
Disclaimer: Regardless of what is below, it has no relevance to VNEA rules as currently written. Offended by the VNEA rule? Fuggedaboutit. That's irrelevant.
But to clarify where I think some may be confused, consider the following:
Now - under pre-2008 WSR, there was no rule that explicitly said that you could not claim a group with a safety. However, that was the effect. You had to back into the ruling by combining two pre-2008 rules:
You also have to remember that under pre-2008 WSR you could have a legal shot that results in an illegally pocketed ball.
As far as WSR and BCAPL today, it is still the case that you cannot claim a group with a safety on an open table. The difference is that BCAPL rules state the rule unequivocally in BCAPL Rule 2-6-1: "...You cannot establish a group on a safety." End of discussion for BCAPL.
WSR, however, still has to back into the ruling, and it's worse than it was before. In 2008 WSR also dropped the definition of the illegally pocketed ball. Gone. Kaput. Seeyalaterbye. The closest thing left is the "wrongfully pocketed ball" in 10-Ball. And there is no outright rule, as there is in BCAPL, that you can't claim a group on a safety. So now you still have to back into the group-claiming issue in WSR 8-ball as follows:
Gotcha. The use of the word "instead" clearly disallows calling a shot and a safety at the same time. Can't do it. Therefore, if you call a safety you do not call a shot, and if you do not call a shot then you cannot satisfy the requirement to claim a group under 3.4. :yes:
*whew*
Now back to VNEA rules. As written, neither in the General Definitions nor in the 8-Ball section do they contemplate the concept of an illegally pocketed ball. Any attempt to use the phrase "illegally pocketed ball" as definitive under VNEA rules, while maybe logical, is both arbitrary and, necessarily, is also conjecture. Also, nowhere in VNEA rules is there either an explicit rule disallowing establishing a group on a safety, or any part of the definition of safety that would indicate that ball pocketed on a safety cannot be used to claim a group. Lastly, there is no VNEA rule that precludes calling a safety and ball/pocket at the same time.
Under VNEA, if you are still not convinced, then you must you fall to the basic principle of law (and rules in general) - any act is legal that is not explicitly or implicitly stated as illegal.
I hope that helps to explain some of the confusion. Though not a certified VNEA ref, if I were asked to testify as an expert pool rules writer purely on a forensic basis concerning the text of the VNEA rules, I would completely agree that a group can be claimed on an open table with a safety.
I would not testify as to the motive of whoever edited the VNEA rules. Whether the intention was to alter the WSR intent, or if the omission of the concept/definintion of the illegally pocketed ball was an oversight at the time, is anyone's guess. :smile:
Buddy
Well, since you asked...*sigh*...
I think I can clear things up a little for the doubters, particularly if they ever played under WSR/BCAPL rules in the past, and may be remembering those rules.
Disclaimer: Regardless of what is below, it has no relevance to VNEA rules as currently written. Offended by the VNEA rule? Fuggedaboutit. That's irrelevant.
But to clarify where I think some may be confused, consider the following:
- * It is clear that whoever cobbled together the VNEA rules borrowed heavily from the pre-2008 version of WSR. Much of the language is taken verbatim, sometimes entire paragraphs.
- * What was NOT taken from WSR, even though it was in WSR at the same time as the borrowed language, was the concept and definition of the "illegally pocketed ball".
Now - under pre-2008 WSR, there was no rule that explicitly said that you could not claim a group with a safety. However, that was the effect. You had to back into the ruling by combining two pre-2008 rules:
- * pre-2008 WSR Rule 4.10 - Groups were not established until a ball had been legally pocketed on a shot after the break, AND
- * pre-2008 WSR Rule 4.16 - Any ball pocketed on a safety was defined as an illegally pocketed ball.
You also have to remember that under pre-2008 WSR you could have a legal shot that results in an illegally pocketed ball.
As far as WSR and BCAPL today, it is still the case that you cannot claim a group with a safety on an open table. The difference is that BCAPL rules state the rule unequivocally in BCAPL Rule 2-6-1: "...You cannot establish a group on a safety." End of discussion for BCAPL.
WSR, however, still has to back into the ruling, and it's worse than it was before. In 2008 WSR also dropped the definition of the illegally pocketed ball. Gone. Kaput. Seeyalaterbye. The closest thing left is the "wrongfully pocketed ball" in 10-Ball. And there is no outright rule, as there is in BCAPL, that you can't claim a group on a safety. So now you still have to back into the group-claiming issue in WSR 8-ball as follows:
- * Under the 8-Ball rule 3.4, "Open Table/Choosing Groups", it states that the shooter must "call ball and pocket". If the shooter fails to make the shot as called, the table remains open for the incoming shooter.
- * Under WSR 8-ball Rule 3.6, "Calling Shots", it says the shooter may play a safety on any shot after the break.
- * Under WSR General Rule 1.6, "Calling Shots", It states that the shooter may choose to call a safety instead of ball and pocket, and that play passes to the opponent after the shot.
Gotcha. The use of the word "instead" clearly disallows calling a shot and a safety at the same time. Can't do it. Therefore, if you call a safety you do not call a shot, and if you do not call a shot then you cannot satisfy the requirement to claim a group under 3.4. :yes:
*whew*
Now back to VNEA rules. As written, neither in the General Definitions nor in the 8-Ball section do they contemplate the concept of an illegally pocketed ball. Any attempt to use the phrase "illegally pocketed ball" as definitive under VNEA rules, while maybe logical, is both arbitrary and, necessarily, is also conjecture. Also, nowhere in VNEA rules is there either an explicit rule disallowing establishing a group on a safety, or any part of the definition of safety that would indicate that ball pocketed on a safety cannot be used to claim a group. Lastly, there is no VNEA rule that precludes calling a safety and ball/pocket at the same time.
Under VNEA, if you are still not convinced, then you must you fall to the basic principle of law (and rules in general) - any act is legal that is not explicitly or implicitly stated as illegal.
I hope that helps to explain some of the confusion. Though not a certified VNEA ref, if I were asked to testify as an expert pool rules writer purely on a forensic basis concerning the text of the VNEA rules, I would completely agree that a group can be claimed on an open table with a safety.
I would not testify as to the motive of whoever edited the VNEA rules. Whether the intention was to alter the WSR intent, or if the omission of the concept/definintion of the illegally pocketed ball was an oversight at the time, is anyone's guess. :smile:
Buddy
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