Wagon Wheel System: weird or superb!?

[StraightPoolIU]

I plateaued as a player for many years. In the last year or so I've noticed a marked improvement in my game. I think the reason is that during the last year I changed my practicing pool routine from just "hitting balls" or "shooting around" to an actual practice routine doing drills. I'm finding out which shots I have problems with and I'm repeating them and learning how to execute them and move the cue ball. I'm the only person (with the exception of 1 or 2 others) I see in the pool hall doing drills. They probably think I'm a weirdo that never wants to play with anyone. I like playing, but truthfully I want to get better and playing casual games hasn't done that. I don't get that much time to practice so when I do I go there to work. Doing drills has helped my practice become more efficient, more effective, and when those shots come up in matches there is less pressure because I know I've practiced them a ton. Also, I want to note that I practice wagon wheel drills on the reg and I feel like it has been one of the biggest boosts to my game. I have a much better sense now of tangent lines and how to manipulate them to get where I want to go.

 

[Ratta]

Practicing the right way makes it easier to pull out the right picture at the right moment.


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[FranCrimi]

One of the things I try not to do when I post is to add a threat, like, if you don't do what I say you should do then there is something wrong with you. Or, if you don't practice what I preach to you, you will lose out.

I see that a lot here.

Now back to giving our opinions:

It is my opinion that there are different types of drills. One type is when a player sets up a particular shot and practices it over and over until they figure it out because they missed it in competition.

I think that's a great drill.

Setting up a drill with several balls can confuse a player and leave them with a less than clear idea of having learned anything specific.

 

[Neil]

One of the things I try not to do when I post is to add a threat, like, if you don't do what I say you should do then there is something wrong with you. Or, if you don't practice what I preach to you, you will lose out.

I see that a lot here.

Now back to giving our opinions:

It is my opinion that there are different types of drills. One type is when a player sets up a particular shot and practices it over and over until they figure it out because they missed it in competition.

I think that's a great drill.

Setting up a drill with several balls can confuse a player and leave them with a less than clear idea of having learned anything specific.

But yet, you do it also. It's just that you always seem to want to take "the other road" while doing the same thing. In this very post of yours, one can easily read your "threat" (your term, not mine) of becoming confused when doing a drill with several balls, and therefore should not do that.

Again, it all goes back to how the drill is taught, and how the student does the drill. The latter being the most important, of course. If you just shoot the same shot over and over for the sake of getting through the drill, one isn't going to learn much, and sometimes nothing. When doing any drill, one should pay extreme attention to every little detail. Thereby, mentally noting exactly what does what.

Example: straight stop shot- Did I make the ball? Did the cue ball stop at contact with no forward or backward movement? Did it stop with no sideways spin? If the answer is no to any of them, you should know exactly how you hit it, and now know what you need to do differently. Getting sidespin, yet thought you hit center axis? Well, obviously, you didn't hit center axis. Now you can start to look to fix it. Are you actually hitting where you think you are? Or are you not seeing center axis correctly? Ect. ect. Same thing goes with any drill. Didn't quite get my position, need to add or subtract a hair of spin. It's all about paying attention to details. THAT is where one learns by doing drills.

edit: When one starts doing drills the proper way, then they start to see reference lines like Eckert teaches. There are many more than he has shown in his you-tube videos. But, you will only find them by paying close attention to details.

 

[FranCrimi]

But yet, you do it also. It's just that you always seem to want to take "the other road" while doing the same thing. In this very post of yours, one can easily read your "threat" (your term, not mine) of becoming confused when doing a drill with several balls, and therefore should not do that.

Again, it all goes back to how the drill is taught, and how the student does the drill. The latter being the most important, of course. If you just shoot the same shot over and over for the sake of getting through the drill, one isn't going to learn much, and sometimes nothing. When doing any drill, one should pay extreme attention to every little detail. Thereby, mentally noting exactly what does what.

Example: straight stop shot- Did I make the ball? Did the cue ball stop at contact with no forward or backward movement? Did it stop with no sideways spin? If the answer is no to any of them, you should know exactly how you hit it, and now know what you need to do differently. Getting sidespin, yet thought you hit center axis? Well, obviously, you didn't hit center axis. Now you can start to look to fix it. Are you actually hitting where you think you are? Or are you not seeing center axis correctly? Ect. ect. Same thing goes with any drill. Didn't quite get my position, need to add or subtract a hair of spin. It's all about paying attention to details. THAT is where one learns by doing drills.

edit: When one starts doing drills the proper way, then they start to see reference lines like Eckert teaches. There are many more than he has shown in his you-tube videos. But, you will only find them by paying close attention to details.

Actually, no, I don't threaten the general public with my posts, but you do.

Yes, I agree ---- Whatever makes the player pay attention more will always be helpful. If some players require a multi-ball drill format to learn how to pay attention, then I guess it's better for them.

But I do think it's harder to recognize something they learned in a multi-ball drill when something similar comes up in a game situation. When players practice a multi-ball drill where balls are set up all around in a specific way, they are taking in the total environment of the drill, which includes how the balls are laid out.

Translating that into a single shot during an actual game with balls all around in a random and often blocking manner does not make the situation easily recognizable. Sure, the drill would have helped more than not practicing at all, but I know there are better ways to practice where there is a quicker and more productive translation to real game play.

 

[JoeW]

Without getting too technical I will quote from Wikipedia

"Generalization is the notion that animals and humans are able to respond similarly to different stimuli provided those stimuli have similar properties as implied using conditioning. For example, spatial generalization is when you try to use your hands to reach for a glass of water in front of you, your brain fires motor commands to your arm and hand; a map is associated with the command as well as the resulting movement. This map is then able to allow the user to use the same sets of command to reach for another object in a different physical location.[1]

Generalization has been shown to be refined and/or stabilized after sleep.[2]"

As you can see from the definition and introduction to generalization theory we form maps. Learning specific discriminations helps the neurophysiological system in making other discriminations and this type of learning does indeed generalize to other situations..

Many aspects of learning theory including behavior modification and instrumental conditioning support this type of improvement in one's skills over time. In essence it is the way we proceed from novice to Professional. We see a situation that is similar to a previous situation and estimate what needs to be done.

The Wagon Wheel drill is an excellent way to incrementally learn tip offsets that can be used in various ways. Similar situations can be worked with in a similar way. As one refines their ability to estimate offsets they are better able to estimate situations they have not seen.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... The Wagon Wheel drill is an excellent way to incrementally learn tip offsets that can be used in various ways. Similar situations can be worked with in a similar way. As one refines their ability to estimate offsets they are better able to estimate situations they have not seen.

My suspicion is that one of the things that separates those who learn quickly from those who don't is the ability to extend experience out from the specific examples already seen. In the wagon wheel drill, the shot is straight into the side pocket so the tangent/kiss line is parallel to the long cushions. If the shot is turned 45 degrees (object ball on the foot spot), the action of the cue ball off the object ball will be the same but the reference has turned. Some players will pick up faster on the fact that the new reference is different.

 

[CurvedCue]

But I do think it's harder to recognize something they learned in a multi-ball drill when something similar comes up in a game situation. When players practice a multi-ball drill where balls are set up all around in a specific way, they are taking in the total environment of the drill, which includes how the balls are laid out.

Translating that into a single shot during an actual game with balls all around in a random and often blocking manner does not make the situation easily recognizable. Sure, the drill would have helped more than not practicing at all, but I know there are better ways to practice where there is a quicker and more productive translation to real game play.

Fran,

As a novice I whole-heartedly agree with you! :thumbup:

I get super-flustered when I'm in a real game situation and can't fall back on any of the drills I've practiced to help me. Finding that direct correlation between a "drill" and a "real game" is pretty tough. I mean you get this completely new and bewildering arrangement of balls every time when playing.

Of course, maybe it's different when there's an cool instructor around to say stuff like: "Okay, I'm gonna set up this drill, but in a real situation it's not gonna be like this. No, it's gonna be more like this..."

If there were exercises that could bridge a drill to a real situation that would be pretty AWESOME.

 

[Neil]

Fran,

As a novice I whole-heartedly agree with you! :thumbup:

I get super-flustered when I'm in a real game situation and can't fall back on any of the drills I've practiced to help me. Finding that direct correlation between a "drill" and a "real game" is pretty tough. I mean you get this completely new and bewildering arrangement of balls every time when playing.

Of course, maybe it's different when there's an cool instructor around to say stuff like: "Okay, I'm gonna set up this drill, but in a real situation it's not gonna be like this. No, it's gonna be more like this..."

If there were exercises that could bridge a drill to a real situation that would be pretty AWESOME.

What kind of drills are you practicing?

 

[Neil]

My suspicion is that one of the things that separates those who learn quickly from those who don't is the ability to extend experience out from the specific examples already seen. In the wagon wheel drill, the shot is straight into the side pocket so the tangent/kiss line is parallel to the long cushions. If the shot is turned 45 degrees (object ball on the foot spot), the action of the cue ball off the object ball will be the same but the reference has turned. Some players will pick up faster on the fact that the new reference is different.

To me, it's the same thing as being taught that 1+1=2, 1+2=3, and 2+2=4. And then, from that figuring out that 4-1=3, 4-2=2, and 3-1=2 without getting flustered that I was never taught subtraction.

 

[Ratta]

What fran said i saw a lot of times too. That students start to struggle bc of too much information at one time. Before i let the dog out i prefer to first ket him play a bit in the garden ;-)

If you then see and know that he can make the shot technically and furthermore understood why and how i ll place him situations where he can use the learnt things - by using his just earned expirience.

Difficult and dynamic drills i usually for more expirienced players to burn in things 100% and sharpen mental and pgysical stuff.

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[JoeW]

My suspicion is that one of the things that separates those who learn quickly from those who don't is the ability to extend experience out from the specific examples already seen. In the wagon wheel drill, the shot is straight into the side pocket so the tangent/kiss line is parallel to the long cushions. If the shot is turned 45 degrees (object ball on the foot spot), the action of the cue ball off the object ball will be the same but the reference has turned. Some players will pick up faster on the fact that the new reference is different.

This is true in many ways. It seems that some people need to be taught to see the tangent line from different perspectives. One of the things I find interesting is that when I have explained the use of the tangent line when the object ball is within two inches of the pocket, some people just can't see it. Demonstrations are often needed. All in all it is a strange phenomena.

A fellow named Witken developed the "Rod and Frame Task."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Witkin

Basically, people are asked to orient a rod vertically that is within a frame that may or may not be oriented vertically. Some people are dependent on the frame and cannot get the rod vertical. Other people exhibit "Field Independence" and they can orient the rod vertically regardless of the position of the frame.

Field dependence / independence is a cognitive style with several covariates. I suspect that field dependent people may have a more difficult time on a pool table when it comes to generalizing what has been learned.

It is an interesting topic and probably has implications for teaching people how to play pool. Here are a few correlates, " field-independent subjects tended to be more unconventional, aggressive, antisocial, and perhaps defensive than field-dependent subjects. " at least is a psychiatric population. Seems like your average AZB pool player to me.

Anyway -- some people just can't see those tangent lines without referencing the frame (the table). Other methods of teaching would be needed and I am not sure what those would be, perhaps they should be advised to take two weeks off and then quit.:embarrassed2:

 

[JoeW]

Here is an online Embedded Figures Test that can be used to determine field independence.

http://www.indiabix.com/non-verbal-reasoning/embedded-images/

I did not complete the test (I already know I am field independent). So I am not sure how good the results would be or how useful they are. There are other variations online and some are probably better than others.

Filed dependent people could be expected to have a difficult time determining lines on a pool table. In general, people are attracted to the things they can do well so I would expect that most people who play pool with any regularity are field independent. However, newbies who take up the game for social purposes are another story and they probably quickly lose interest in something they cannot do well.

I suspect that I really would recommend that field dependent people should take up another hobby/ sport. This is a cognitive style that is "hard wired" and basically does not change over time.

 

[FranCrimi]

I'm not sure that field dependence would be a reason why a player has trouble assimilating what he learned in a drill to real playing situations. I imagine it would play a role for some players but I've directly experienced players who responded better to setting up and practicing one shot at a time and simulating a specific game situation vs performing multi-ball drills.

If they're afflicted with field dependence and would be better off taking up something other than pool, as Joe suggests, then I would imagine that they couldn't progress, when in fact, they actually do progress.

 

[CurvedCue]

To me, it's the same thing as being taught that 1+1=2, 1+2=3, and 2+2=4. And then, from that figuring out that 4-1=3, 4-2=2, and 3-1=2 without getting flustered that I was never taught subtraction.

Okay, so I have a learning disability. What else is new?

I already know I'm probably spatially challenged or whatever the term is that JoeW uses.
But to have to take up another hobby because of it doesn't seem like a solution anymore.
It's kinda like: I'm not any good at picking up women, but that doesn't mean I want to date guys.

 

[Neil]

Okay, so I have a learning disability. What else is new?

I already know I'm probably spatially challenged or whatever the term is that JoeW uses.
But to have to take up another hobby because of it doesn't seem like a solution anymore.
It's kinda like: I'm not any good at picking up women, but that doesn't mean I want to date guys.

I don't look at it as a learning disability. Some can extrapolate from given information and come up with something totally new. Others have to go step by step. Both can still get to the same end spot with enough diligence. You may not be able to do it right now, but that does not mean that you can not learn to do it over time.

But, one thing is for sure....if you want drills to correlate to your actual game play, you also have to be looking for ways to do that.

 

[FranCrimi]

Okay, so I have a learning disability. What else is new?

I already know I'm probably spatially challenged or whatever the term is that JoeW uses.
But to have to take up another hobby because of it doesn't seem like a solution anymore.
It's kinda like: I'm not any good at picking up women, but that doesn't mean I want to date guys.

Well, then I have a learning disability too. We'll keep each other company in our disabilities.

 

[JoeW]

Field dependence is not a learning disability. It is a cognitive style: A way of perceiving and reacting to the world. It has a significant relationship to analytical intellectual ability but it is not a determinant (Analytical ability is only one subset of intelligence and is only of importance in some fields of endeavor such as occupations that require one to manipulate objects in three or more dimensions. This would include artists, and engineers among others).

Field Dependence is more along the lines of someone who has poor balance. They tend to slip and fall more than others. One of my daughters is vertically challenged. As we say she can (and some times does) trip over a chalk line. People who tend to lose their balance easily usually stay away from high places, tight rope walking and similar activities. We all have strengths and limitations. They are neither good or bad, just the way things are.

In general, people with limitations that are physiologically based avoid activities that others find enjoyable. Some people simply can't throw a baseball accurately. This does not mean they should not play baseball but they should recognize that they will never be very good with out a great deal of effort and much over compensation.

They are probably well advised to take up something else.

As I noted before, most anyone who has been playing pool for a few years and can obtain position for their level of expertise are probably Field Independent. Newbies who just can't seem to get the hang of positional play may have a cognitive style that is not conducive to pool playing, that's not a judgment, nor evaluation, just trying to get people to where they can succeed and have fun.

The whole point is that some people simply can't see the angles without a reference to the pool table as a frame.

 

[Ratta]

VerY interesting text joe.
Enjoyed to read it
:thumbup:

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