Wanted: deflation of custom cue prices!
- Thread starter paulybatz
- Start date
I ain't shy. I'll be the first cue maker to reply.
Try buying the $20k+ in equipment and materials so that you can try to make a cue. Then whenever you get one that is table worthy, I will give you $300 for it. I mean, of course, that's as long as it has multiple ivory and abalone inlays, veneers, a real ivory joint, ivory ferrules, 2 shafts and moori tips.
=)
JW Petree
Petree Custom Cues
Try buying the $20k+ in equipment and materials so that you can try to make a cue. Then whenever you get one that is table worthy, I will give you $300 for it. I mean, of course, that's as long as it has multiple ivory and abalone inlays, veneers, a real ivory joint, ivory ferrules, 2 shafts and moori tips.
=)
JW Petree
Petree Custom Cues
paulybatz said:
IMO, this has been happening over the last few years. Just a few examples that come to mind are DP and Coker cues. They have always been nice cues, but their market prices (especially the secondary market) have deflated. Many reasons have caused this and lots of them have been discussed right here on AZB forum threads. One of the most noteworthy reasons is that there are a TON of new cuemakers on the scene. Go through your BB and look at the guys that begun making cues in 1994/1995-on. You'll be amazed. Everybody is online now, too, and folks are able to reach these new cuemakers very easily.
Also, you have to remember that we are talking items 'made in America' here. There are substantial costs that cuemakers incur....overhead, electricity, materials, shipping, machinery, repairs, R & D, long distance phone service, etc. This stuff adds up and most of it ain't cheap.
Guess it's like anything, though....you get what you pay for...that is, if you are in this for the quality, investment value, and prestige.
Sean
$$$$
It costs the rest of us money because of the few people that are never happy no matter how the cue turns out. also the most of the cue cost is labor, materials are the pretty much standard cost. but overall you get what you pay for!
It costs the rest of us money because of the few people that are never happy no matter how the cue turns out. also the most of the cue cost is labor, materials are the pretty much standard cost. but overall you get what you pay for!
I just came back from a art gallery. They sell a piece of paper that was printed on by a glorified bubble jet printer that they call a Giclee. It is a limited and numbered print. $1500. Signed by the artist. It looked like something that was done by a first grader doing finger painting. This was one of the cheaper ones. Some went as high as $50,000. and they are not originals just copies.
I will take a cue anyday for $1500 or more.
I will take a cue anyday for $1500 or more.
PetreeCues said:
Pete, you are very correct in posting those remarks here. A good Custom Cue, "personally or professionally designed" should start at $750 or more, depending on the design intricasies or the woods chosen & exotic materials requested, that might drive that low end price higher.
You, as a Professioanl Cue Maker, have invested your hard earned money into precision equipment& a facility. You have spent umpteen thousand hours of playing pool & instructing players to learn the game of Pocket Billiards. You have also spent tens of thousands of hours, making pool equipment. The audacity of the unlearned player to question the price of a professionally made cue is ignorant & rude.
I 'm not sure most players really understand the Custom Cue market.
A true Custom Cue, incorporates several types of wood, more than several configurations, exotic materials & more than several hours of construction & modification. The Cue Maker has to fabricate the "elusive weight to balance ratio", add a great shaft & end up with a TRUE Masterpiece.
SouthWest gets $2500 & a multi-year wait for their "low end" Cues. ($2500-UP)
I have seen the quality of your Cues, in person, you are definitely a Craftsman.
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you get what you pay for,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,high prices are a supply and demand deal,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,now, anyone got any Gus Szambotis for less than 1 k ?????????,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,lol
All things considered I think most well made older and newer custom cues are relative bargains when compared to many other collectables. This is just my opinion but I back this up with my experience as a personal property appraiser for more than 30 years. Fine cues are much harder to make than most other collectables (except fine watches) and it requires a very substantial investment in equipment and time to be able to make these pieces of art. Supply and demand rule, however, and there is a limited market for cues relative to other popular collectables and art. This is why I consider fine custom cues, both old and new, to be relative bargains at the prevailing prices found today. I think demand for the more rare finer cues will increase as time goes by. Just my two cents.
Never happen...
...nor should it.
I'm guessing you don't understand the time and materials sum. As such, production cues are what you'll end up with.
Most custom builders charge a fair price and don't drive Mercedes', though some are skilled enough to deserve to. When I handle a terrific cue I appreciate the effort and materials that went into it - and I wouldn't have it any other way.
But some are IMO overpriced. There's nothing fair about what the market will bear. Pay the man or move on, period. I move on for basic cues with decent ringwork over $600 or so. A Basic Cog for $1400 - $1700 is way past my obscenity threshold. Ditto a 6 point SW for $2500. I've played with them and remain mystified why so many are willing to cough up that kind of cash AND wait for years. Much of that has to be simply for the prestige; I have no problem with that, but most won't admit to it and praise the unworldly "hit".
But the bottom line remains: you can still build a darn good collection AND support better cuebuilders for honest prices, if you have a discerning eye and know what you want in playability.
paulybatz said:
...nor should it.
I'm guessing you don't understand the time and materials sum. As such, production cues are what you'll end up with.
Most custom builders charge a fair price and don't drive Mercedes', though some are skilled enough to deserve to. When I handle a terrific cue I appreciate the effort and materials that went into it - and I wouldn't have it any other way.
But some are IMO overpriced. There's nothing fair about what the market will bear. Pay the man or move on, period. I move on for basic cues with decent ringwork over $600 or so. A Basic Cog for $1400 - $1700 is way past my obscenity threshold. Ditto a 6 point SW for $2500. I've played with them and remain mystified why so many are willing to cough up that kind of cash AND wait for years. Much of that has to be simply for the prestige; I have no problem with that, but most won't admit to it and praise the unworldly "hit".
But the bottom line remains: you can still build a darn good collection AND support better cuebuilders for honest prices, if you have a discerning eye and know what you want in playability.
Wow very difficult topic to come to some agreement.
It is difficult to say that cues are inflated in prices when the cues are sold years in advance from the best cue makers out there. Some turn out 30-40 custom cues a year and have a wait list that starts at 2 years, some out to 8 years (South West) and those who are not taking any new orders (Tascarella and Szamboti).
The cue maker’s prices are not high to the person who has the order in place at all. The prices are in line with the market, the years of experience and the quality of material being used. After all ivory is banned from being sold unless it is pre-banned ivory. But for every year of wait each dealer has a “Market Area Adjustment” tacked on top of the cue maker’s price. I have seen South West Cues and Hercek cues adjusted about $100 to $125 for each year of wait (both currently at about 7 years) while the Szamboti cues have an adjustment of almost $150 to $200 with 10 years as the magic number of wait time. But Barry is no longer taking any new orders and collectors have procured all the available cues so his cues are fast becoming priceless. But look at the Black Boar cues, each is a work of art with highly detailed work and all being sold in the 5 digit area and all going overseas.
So would I pay for a Szamboti or a Black Boar at an inflated price?
Maybe not today but I will some time in my lifetime - If I can only find one the is available!
It is difficult to say that cues are inflated in prices when the cues are sold years in advance from the best cue makers out there. Some turn out 30-40 custom cues a year and have a wait list that starts at 2 years, some out to 8 years (South West) and those who are not taking any new orders (Tascarella and Szamboti).
The cue maker’s prices are not high to the person who has the order in place at all. The prices are in line with the market, the years of experience and the quality of material being used. After all ivory is banned from being sold unless it is pre-banned ivory. But for every year of wait each dealer has a “Market Area Adjustment” tacked on top of the cue maker’s price. I have seen South West Cues and Hercek cues adjusted about $100 to $125 for each year of wait (both currently at about 7 years) while the Szamboti cues have an adjustment of almost $150 to $200 with 10 years as the magic number of wait time. But Barry is no longer taking any new orders and collectors have procured all the available cues so his cues are fast becoming priceless. But look at the Black Boar cues, each is a work of art with highly detailed work and all being sold in the 5 digit area and all going overseas.
So would I pay for a Szamboti or a Black Boar at an inflated price?
Maybe not today but I will some time in my lifetime - If I can only find one the is available!
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I will gladly build a cue for you for a fee of, shall we say $200.00(?)paulybatz said:
Of course, you will be required to offset my other expenses & costs
as well. Just a few of them are listed below:
1. Electricity & all other utilities required in the usual work day of a cuemaker, (phone, heat, A/C, etc).
2. All materials (Tip, ferrule material, shaft wood, joint collar, joint screw, forearm wood, handle, butt sleeve & butt cap, epoxy, clear coat. etc, etc).
3. Use of my shop, to include insurance against fire, theft, damage by any "Act of God",workmens comp insurance. I'll give you a break and not charge you for maintenance on the shop. Hmmm, time to repaint!
4. Use of my lathe(s).
5. Use of my milling machine(s).
6. Use of my inlay machine(s).
7. Use of, and cost of resharpening my cutting tools.
8. Use of my vehice to pick up certain supplies (to include insurance & maintenance on that vehicle).
9. Use of my computer. Why? Hey, you will be emailing every week to "see how it's going".
10. My time while I answer those emails.
11. Cost of my past & continuing education to do my job.
My best estimate as to the final cost of your cue would be somewhere in the ball park of $3000.00.
ps: I will inlude shipping at no charge.
I was not trying to be a smart a$$ in my post pauly, even it sounded as though. My point is, there are a lot of hidden costs that the customer does not see. Perhaps you simply are not familiar with the process of making cues, many people are not. Cuemakers are doing their job, just as you are when you go to work each morning. You have some of the same costs to bear each day you work for your employer. I assume you pay for gas, your vehicle, insurance, etc, etc. Have you by chance ever calculated what it costs you to go to work over a period of one year? You might be surprised.paulybatz said:
Misunderstanding
I think most cue-builders are pretty reasonable with their pricing structures, its the secondary market that is just completely out of hand. Don't lecture me on supply and demand, I completely understand. I just think that the network of dealers and brokers is corrupting the custom cue market.The guys who have the cash to order 5 high end cues at a time are ruining it for the enthusiasts who want to order a cue to play with from one of the top name builders. You can't really blame any sector of the market, it's just the way it seems to be for the time being. I feel strongly that the cue-builders should make the cash, not the brokers, but that is just the way things are now a days and it is up to the builders to control this, but you can't blame them for making a living. The good news in my opinion, is that due to the demand created by these conditions, some real good new builders are going relativley un-noticed and their cues can be had at realistic prices .
I think most cue-builders are pretty reasonable with their pricing structures, its the secondary market that is just completely out of hand. Don't lecture me on supply and demand, I completely understand. I just think that the network of dealers and brokers is corrupting the custom cue market.The guys who have the cash to order 5 high end cues at a time are ruining it for the enthusiasts who want to order a cue to play with from one of the top name builders. You can't really blame any sector of the market, it's just the way it seems to be for the time being. I feel strongly that the cue-builders should make the cash, not the brokers, but that is just the way things are now a days and it is up to the builders to control this, but you can't blame them for making a living. The good news in my opinion, is that due to the demand created by these conditions, some real good new builders are going relativley un-noticed and their cues can be had at realistic prices .
I have to go with the cuemakers... I make custom made bamboo fly rods... starting price, $1200. You can spend $5000 if you really want to. I have decades of experience and around $50,000 in tools. If someone wants a $40 rod, then they can carry their happy a$$ to Walmart... I'm sure they'll find just what they're looking for there.
Same with cues. I never have complained about a cuemakers prices. If I can afford them, I pay them. If I can't, well then I save my money until I can! But, I'm NOT going to complain about their prices because, as a craftsman in another endeavor, I understand that they have more money invested in their tools and machines than most people have invested in their furniture and car.
Later,
Bob
Same with cues. I never have complained about a cuemakers prices. If I can afford them, I pay them. If I can't, well then I save my money until I can! But, I'm NOT going to complain about their prices because, as a craftsman in another endeavor, I understand that they have more money invested in their tools and machines than most people have invested in their furniture and car.
Later,
Bob
pathman said:
Complete disagreement. As I see it, dealers in the past, John Wright in particular, have really helped to get many these top cue makers on the map. The vast majority of consumers being on the net now has helped immensley, too. With only a few exceptions, dealers do not consume a lot of the best cuemaker's orders.
Please don't take this personally, but I don't think you know as much about dealing cues as you seem to about supply and demand. Furthermore, I know of no cue dealer that supports himself or his family entierly with sales of custom cues. Save maybe one in the central part of the US. There just is not much money to be made in it. Most all dealers also are collectors themselves.
Sean