Was it a foul?

[MattPoland]

What a touchy subject. In my experience tournaments roughly come in one of three flavors:

1) Follow BCAPL or WPA rules strictly
2) Have "local rules" with some stated in an abridged rules sheet and the rest covered by tournament tradition or TD/ref discretion.
3) Advertised as #1 but operates as #2

If you're playing in a #1 tournament, you need to declare the balls are frozen or they are assumed not frozen. Then you may shoot directly at and through the object ball.

If you're playing in #2 or #3, then you probably have to shoot away at a minimum of a 45 degree angle.

This is a scenario where a knowledgeable/experienced player will take the time to settle the rules question with the opponent (and perhaps TD) before the shot is taken because this specific scenario is so often controversial. And remember, if the TD is wrong but doesn't acknowledge he's wrong...then he's right.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Yes you can play “through the ball” - it’s efftively a legal push shot.

If you stroke normally there's no prolonged contact, so no push - that's why it's legal.

were wired for the pocket, I played the shot with elevated cue

If this means you shot straight toward the pocket (not at a cut angle) with an elevated cue, then it's possible that you did double hit or pushed the CB. You can stroke straight through a frozen combo because they move away from the tip simultaneously and there's no prolonged tip contact - but if you elevate your cue the CB might be stopped in the way of your tip following through.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

ever get burned not calling a tap in on an eight ball?

And I'm tired of people jumping in without actually bothering to understand the post and the question. The issue was never not calling the balls frozen. The issue is that some people believe that whether the balls are touching or just close by, the same rules apply. If you don't understand that, I cannot make it more clear.

Julian

The title of the thread is "Was it a foul?" The answer is yes. You can't apply frozen ball rules to balls that weren't frozen according to those same rules. Generally different rules apply to frozen balls and those not frozen or not declared frozen.

Hu

 

[MattPoland]

And I'm tired of people jumping in without actually bothering to understand the post and the question. The issue was never not calling the balls frozen. The issue is that some people believe that whether the balls are touching or just close by, the same rules apply. If you don't understand that, I cannot make it more clear.

Julian

It’s because the specific rule about frozen balls has a specific stipulation about declaring it frozen. It’s hard to talk about one without mentioning the other.

http://www.playcsipool.com/uploads/7/3/5/9/7359673/official_rules_of_csi__170714_.pdf

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[fastone371]

Saturday I played in an 8-ball tournament and at one point during the game, the CB came resting again one of my object balls (frozen balls). They were wired for the pocket, I played the shot with elevated cue and made the ball.

My oponent jumped up, called foul and grabbed the CB off the table. There was no referee, we went to the tournament leader and explained the situation and he said it was hard to say without watching, but grated my opponent the foul.

I had actually just watched an instructional video by Dr Dave explaining that when then balls are frozen, it's not a foul even if you play straight through the CB so I was fairly confident on that shot.

Julian

Edit: Just to clarify, my oponent and the TD were of the opinion that although the balls were frozen, a foul was still possible and therefore awarded. There was no debate whether the balls were frozen or not.

The biggest error was made by the TD for not listening to both sides of the story. It is possible to shoot a frozen ball shot without jacking up but it is very difficult to determine if it is a legal hit, thats why BCA have adopted the rule that you are allowed to shoot thru frozen balls but first these frozen balls must be declared frozen by the shooter and agreed upon by the opponent or referee. When I am shooting in a tournament I always find out which rule set we are playing by. Then during the actual competition if a ball frozen to another ball or rail shot comes up I inform my opponent that a ball is frozen and he is free to come look and agree or disagree. If he disagrees we need to find a ref, TD, or another player we trust to make that determination. Most of the time when a questionable shot comes up I look for a ref or a 3rd party who my opponent agrees upon to make a call, I believe in most rule sets a questionable call goes to the shooter. Your opponent definitely crapped the bed when he walked over and picked up the cue ball, I think that is the biggest violation here. I think that is what should have been ruled on, not the shot because your opponent effectively took any decision making away by picking up the cue ball.

 

[ctyhntr]

Great summarization. Seems everyone is focused on nitpicking the different rules rather than zooming out and looking at the bigger picture.

The biggest error was made by the TD for not listening to both sides of the story. It is possible to shoot a frozen ball shot without jacking up but it is very difficult to determine if it is a legal hit, thats why BCA have adopted the rule that you are allowed to shoot thru frozen balls but first these frozen balls must be declared frozen by the shooter and agreed upon by the opponent or referee. When I am shooting in a tournament I always find out which rule set we are playing by. Then during the actual competition if a ball frozen to another ball or rail shot comes up I inform my opponent that a ball is frozen and he is free to come look and agree or disagree. If he disagrees we need to find a ref, TD, or another player we trust to make that determination. Most of the time when a questionable shot comes up I look for a ref or a 3rd party who my opponent agrees upon to make a call, I believe in most rule sets a questionable call goes to the shooter. Your opponent definitely crapped the bed when he walked over and picked up the cue ball, I think that is the biggest violation here. I think that is what should have been ruled on, not the shot because your opponent effectively took any decision making away by picking up the cue ball.

 

[jimmyco]

Yes, it was.