Wei Table ...help with shot .....long

[frankncali]

Last night in an APA league match I had the following shot.

Its hard to get it exactly right but basically ......
*I had no room or little room to bank the 8 in corner "a"
*I did not think it would two rail into corner "c"
*my opponnet needs one game and I need 3
*Opponet is a lower level player(sl 3) but can make balls and
has already won a game by running 4 balls and then the 8.
* I did not want to turn the cue ball loose on the really thin cut

What I did decide to do was to try and bank the 8 off the six into
corner "A". The angle was such that I thought it was hard to get the cueball
out of the way. Once down on the shot I REALLY did not think I could get the ball out of the way but figured I would try it. I did not make the ball.

One other factor is that this is playoffs and if we win my match then we are qualified for our regionals. This is the fifth match out of 5. The teams are playing the 4th and 5th at the same time due to time. In the 4th match
at the time of this shot my teammate is in a bad spot and his opponet
only needs 1 game. My teammate is a bit of an underdog in the match anyway.

This was the layout before
START(
%A^5F7%C^7I0%Fl1W1%Gr8W4%Hi5E1%Ph3S6

)END

this is what I left
START(
%A^5F7%C^7I0%Fl1W1%Gr8W4%Hq4K7%Pf0M6%Qs2[2%Ss3B4

)END

My opponnet then shot the 6ball and then the 1ball leaving this shot on the three
START(
%A^5F7%C_0I4%Fl1W1%Gr8W4%Hq4K7%PU5F8%Qs2[2%Ss3B4%Wk2V0%Xf4N4
%YW6G0%Z^0G6%]`2H4%^f4L5%_h2N7%`j3[1%ak1W0
)END

I got a break here when their coach called for a timeout. I think he messed the player up. The person was going to shoot the ball into corner "A" but he wanted them to miss the ball and leave the cueball behind the 8 near pocket "C".
Had he left the player alone I think the plaeyr makes the 3 and is out.
The player misses the three leaving this..
START(
%A[7B6%C_0I4%Ft1\2%Gr8W4%Hq4K7%PU5F8%Qs2[2%Ss3B4%Un1[0%Vs3Y8
%Wq6G0%Xk6C7%Yr8Y1%Z_7I8%[i9M2%\r9G8%]j4D0%^^8H5
)END
I cut in the eight.....
I think I dodged a bullet by getting back to the table with a thin but makeable shot.
I thought about a lot of shots on the original 8 ball shot but really did not
come up with anything great.
I did not want to just keep the 8 on that side due to 3 and 1 having pockets in the side or the other corner. Also it did not better my position due to the player still had 2 timeouts and could have left me the same type shot again. My opponet had that stinking 6 ball sitting so good.
I thought about laying the cueball on the endrail and try to get her straight in on the 7 but did not.
Banking the 8 back across side looked a little tougher in real life then it does on the Wei table. Its a slower bar table as well. I did not want to let the cueball go or maybe have the 8 go two rail in the other side.
I probably shoule have tried to thin the 8 and get the cueball back up table
to the end rail. I figured my opponet would make the 6 easily and would have pretty good shape. As well as I did not want my 8 on the end rail.

My end philosphy was not to beat myself and make the lower SL player
win it. It worked but I would have rather been in a better position after my
original 8ball attempt.
The 2 timeouts left hurt alot as did the easiness of the balls.

BTW-- My teammate in the 4th match came back and won making my match
not needed. I was in good shape in the next game but anything
can happen. We finished the session in first and will now play for 1st overall
next week. Both 1st and 2nd qualify for the regionals which is why this week
is bigger than next in a way. Our team has finished 1st or 2nd 5 straight
sessions(1st 4 times) and won regionals winning the trip to last months Vegas Nationals.
We had fun and finished 129th (in the money out of 680 teams).
A couple changes in the team most sessions but the nucleus has remained.
I know alot of people hate the APA but I do it for a night out with friends and theres not really a good pool hall close.

Any suggestions for the original 8 ball shot.

 

[Koop]

Images to make it easier

 

[nfty9er]

Last night in an APA league match I had the following shot.

Its hard to get it exactly right but basically ......
*I had no room or little room to bank the 8 in corner "a"
*I did not think it would two rail into corner "c"
*my opponnet needs one game and I need 3
*Opponet is a lower level player(sl 3) but can make balls and
has already won a game by running 4 balls and then the 8.
* I did not want to turn the cue ball loose on the really thin cut

What I did decide to do was to try and bank the 8 off the six into
corner "A". The angle was such that I thought it was hard to get the cueball
out of the way. Once down on the shot I REALLY did not think I could get the ball out of the way but figured I would try it. I did not make the ball.

One other factor is that this is playoffs and if we win my match then we are qualified for our regionals. This is the fifth match out of 5. The teams are playing the 4th and 5th at the same time due to time. In the 4th match
at the time of this shot my teammate is in a bad spot and his opponet
only needs 1 game. My teammate is a bit of an underdog in the match anyway.

This was the layout before
START(
%A^5F7%C^7I0%Fl1W1%Gr8W4%Hi5E1%Ph3S6

)END

this is what I left
START(
%A^5F7%C^7I0%Fl1W1%Gr8W4%Hq4K7%Pf0M6%Qs2[2%Ss3B4

)END

My opponnet then shot the 6ball and then the 1ball leaving this shot on the three
START(
%A^5F7%C_0I4%Fl1W1%Gr8W4%Hq4K7%PU5F8%Qs2[2%Ss3B4%Wk2V0%Xf4N4
%YW6G0%Z^0G6%]`2H4%^f4L5%_h2N7%`j3[1%ak1W0
)END

I got a break here when their coach called for a timeout. I think he messed the player up. The person was going to shoot the ball into corner "A" but he wanted them to miss the ball and leave the cueball behind the 8 near pocket "C".
Had he left the player alone I think the plaeyr makes the 3 and is out.
The player misses the three leaving this..
START(
%A[7B6%C_0I4%Ft1\2%Gr8W4%Hq4K7%PU5F8%Qs2[2%Ss3B4%Un1[0%Vs3Y8
%Wq6G0%Xk6C7%Yr8Y1%Z_7I8%[i9M2%\r9G8%]j4D0%^^8H5
)END
I cut in the eight.....
I think I dodged a bullet by getting back to the table with a thin but makeable shot.
I thought about a lot of shots on the original 8 ball shot but really did not
come up with anything great.
I did not want to just keep the 8 on that side due to 3 and 1 having pockets in the side or the other corner. Also it did not better my position due to the player still had 2 timeouts and could have left me the same type shot again. My opponet had that stinking 6 ball sitting so good.
I thought about laying the cueball on the endrail and try to get her straight in on the 7 but did not.
Banking the 8 back across side looked a little tougher in real life then it does on the Wei table. Its a slower bar table as well. I did not want to let the cueball go or maybe have the 8 go two rail in the other side.
I probably shoule have tried to thin the 8 and get the cueball back up table
to the end rail. I figured my opponet would make the 6 easily and would have pretty good shape. As well as I did not want my 8 on the end rail.

My end philosphy was not to beat myself and make the lower SL player
win it. It worked but I would have rather been in a better position after my
original 8ball attempt.
The 2 timeouts left hurt alot as did the easiness of the balls.

BTW-- My teammate in the 4th match came back and won making my match
not needed. I was in good shape in the next game but anything
can happen. We finished the session in first and will now play for 1st overall
next week. Both 1st and 2nd qualify for the regionals which is why this week
is bigger than next in a way. Our team has finished 1st or 2nd 5 straight
sessions(1st 4 times) and won regionals winning the trip to last months Vegas Nationals.
We had fun and finished 129th (in the money out of 680 teams).
A couple changes in the team most sessions but the nucleus has remained.
I know alot of people hate the APA but I do it for a night out with friends and theres not really a good pool hall close.

Any suggestions for the original 8 ball shot.

Bank the eight into end rail and tie up the 7. If you have your speed in control should be easy.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Bank the eight into end rail and tie up the 7. If you have your speed in control should be easy.

I agree with this approach but have a slight variation. My initial instinct (which I'm sticking with) would be to bank the eight-ball toward the 6 but softly. That way, if it caroms in or goes straight in, I win. If it hangs up or stays anywhere in that vicinity, my opponent has some work cut out for them.

No matter what, whenever you can't make the 8-ball and your opponent has several balls left, you're usually going to lose. The only two things you should be thinking of are how you can make it especially difficult for them to win and if they mess up, how can you guarantee you'll win in your next inning.

By banking the 8-ball toward two of his balls that are parked near the corner, you accomplish both goals. Things can get tied up or you can cover a pocket he's going to need to get out and that's if you miss!

 

[frankncali]

I agree with this approach but have a slight variation. My initial instinct (which I'm sticking with) would be to bank the eight-ball toward the 6 but softly. That way, if it caroms in or goes straight in, I win. If it hangs up or stays anywhere in that vicinity, my opponent has some work cut out for them.

No matter what, whenever you can't make the 8-ball and your opponent has several balls left, you're usually going to lose. The only two things you should be thinking of are how you can make it especially difficult for them to win and if they mess up, how can you guarantee you'll win in your next inning.

By banking the 8-ball toward two of his balls that are parked near the corner, you accomplish both goals. Things can get tied up or you can cover a pocket he's going to need to get out and that's if you miss!

I thought of your and nfty49's approach but I was worry about something you said in your post above.

This line
"The only two things you should be thinking of are how you can make it especially difficult for them to win and if they mess up, how can you guarantee you'll win in your next inning"

I was worried that if I lay the 8 on the seven or even near the seven I limit my chances of winning even more. Same with getting it behind the 6.
With the low SL player I was afraid that they might not even need to take a timeout and would be able to leave me in the same or worse situation.
I thought I had a good chance to lose when I saw the cueball easing towards the end rail. To me thats trouble. I was lucky.....in the APA there are bad coaches. My opponet could ahve easily shot at the 3 and not only left me a
bank if missing. If its made then the 7 to the eight is not that much trouble.

Bottom line was that I left myself in that spot. Had I lost it would have been
the shot before the 8 ball that beat me.
I wsa very surprised to see the ball come out for a cut on the 8

Their coach actually thought that if his player left the cueball near pocket c behind the 8 that I would bank at the 8. There I believe I would ahve looked for a safe first.

thanks for the help guys

 

[Hal]

Personally I would prefer to play the 3ball into pocket C and have the cue ball go to the side rail and back over for the 7ball.

 

[frankncali]

Personally I would prefer to play the 3ball into pocket C and have the cue ball go to the side rail and back over for the 7ball.

I think that would be a shot for a higher skill level player but a lower one could play the shot the other way and not sell out.
Me or you might not think twice.

Nice stadium pic of Neyland BTW--- I wonder how many people would have know the stadium without you putting the name up there. I would have especially with it wasy to see its pregame right before the team comes out or as the team is coming out.

heres one that I like from this year.....

 

[Colin Colenso]

Any suggestions for the original 8 ball shot.

To tie up the 6 or 7 is almost as hard as the bank in the center.

The bank is 30% makable even if you're average at banks. I'll take 30% chance anytime from that situation. Though I reckon it's a 50% shot for a very good player.

Note, even if you miss, you'll leave a long shot, and against this average player you're probably still 40% chance to get another decent shot at the 8.

Don't think negative here, play the bank and make him panic that if he misses you're willing to have a go.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I thought of your and nfty49's approach but I was worry about something you said in your post above.

This line
"The only two things you should be thinking of are how you can make it especially difficult for them to win and if they mess up, how can you guarantee you'll win in your next inning"

I was worried that if I lay the 8 on the seven or even near the seven I limit my chances of winning even more. Same with getting it behind the 6.
With the low SL player I was afraid that they might not even need to take a timeout and would be able to leave me in the same or worse situation.
I thought I had a good chance to lose when I saw the cueball easing towards the end rail. To me thats trouble. I was lucky.....in the APA there are bad coaches. My opponet could ahve easily shot at the 3 and not only left me a
bank if missing. If its made then the 7 to the eight is not that much trouble.

Bottom line was that I left myself in that spot. Had I lost it would have been
the shot before the 8 ball that beat me.
I wsa very surprised to see the ball come out for a cut on the 8

Their coach actually thought that if his player left the cueball near pocket c behind the 8 that I would bank at the 8. There I believe I would ahve looked for a safe first.

thanks for the help guys

OK seriously, I know you're of good intention and I don't mean to sound offensive even if it's taken that way but my advice is for the serious player playing against a worthy opponent. Either you're not serious about winning or your opponent wasn't worthy of serious consideration if leaving the table wide-open was your intent. This has nothing to do with your ability and everything to do with your approach. If you want to learn about the right shot, you gotta think of something that's applicable against nearly anyone. You wanna recap a silly win from league night and allow victory to justify your mistakes then just say so.

If you make your decisions based on your opponent's skill level, eventually, you start to play at their level. In my opinion, I think it'd be best if you played everyone as though you were playing Efren Reyes.

 

[frankncali]

OK seriously, I know you're of good intention and I don't mean to sound offensive even if it's taken that way but my advice is for the serious player playing against a worthy opponent. Either you're not serious about winning or your opponent wasn't worthy of serious consideration if leaving the table wide-open was your intent. This has nothing to do with your ability and everything to do with your approach. If you want to learn about the right shot, you gotta think of something that's applicable against nearly anyone. You wanna recap a silly win from league night and allow victory to justify your mistakes then just say so.

If you make your decisions based on your opponent's skill level, eventually, you start to play at their level. In my opinion, I think it'd be best if you played everyone as though you were playing Efren Reyes.

Okay i read this post a bunch of times. For one I was asking for opinions and
got some. Whats wrong with that?
For you to belittle me for playing a league match is wrong.
As for the shot and situation why not play the opponent? Is it different than playing someone that can jump very well versus someone that can kick pretty good but does not jump. I would think I would play different shots against different players.
This post is far from the Jude that I have gotten tips and advice from in the past.
To know I am from good intention yet post that I am recapping a silly win from league night looking for justification is a major contradiction.

All I was looking for was options. I got a few. I was a little baffled that I could not see a more clearcut way to play the shot.
I like your option and in a way thats what I tried. I was hoping that the
8ball would catch the 6 and either go in or block the pocket.
All I was looking for on here was another option.

If I were playing you or a player of your SL and I place the ball on the 7 or behind the 6 you win roughly 95% of the time. IMO I would need to play more aggressively in that case. Maybe thats wrong.
I started to post this and not mention the skill level of the opponent just to see if I got responses that asked how the other person played but I did not.

Sorry that I am beneath you by playing in league play. Sorry for trying to find a different shot but thanks for the advice. I took it and filed it away.

 

[Snapshot9]

What I would have done

Frank ... If you could not possibly just cut the 8 into
the corner, then I would undercut it slightly and bring
the cue ball across side to the first diamond to the
right of the closest side pocket. Considering that
lower level players can make simple shots okay, and
that they usually have trouble playing shape, it leaves
him a hard table to get out for shape. He could cut
the 6 in, but the angle would be hard for him to get
good shape, and even if he had a shot on the 7, the
angle would be thiin, giving him another hard shot
to get on the 1 or 3 (considering that the 8 might
be tying up the corner pocket from the first shot),
plus the angle to cut the 1 or 3 into the corner
(up table where the 8 is) is a bad angle and could
scratch easily. So, what I am advocating is low
percentage out because of shape, and that's what
he would have after the first shot I described.

 

[Hal]

This is what I meant. My first impression was to do this:
START(
%C_0I4%Gr8W4%Hq4K7%PU5F8%Qs2[2%Ss3B4%Uf9J1%Vc8Z5%Wc5Z1%X^5J2
%Y]5I8%ZV4G5%]r3D4%^`1I2%eB4a0
)END
It just seems easier than doing this:
START(
%C_0I4%Gr8W4%Hq4K7%PU5F8%Qs2[2%Ss3B4%Uc0D5%V_9H6%Wr2Y9%X_8J0
%Y]5H5%ZV4G5%]g8I6%^c7D0%eB4a0
)END
But that's just me.

 

[Cory in DC]

I was worried that if I lay the 8 on the seven or even near the seven I limit my chances of winning even more. Same with getting it behind the 6.
With the low SL player I was afraid that they might not even need to take a timeout and would be able to leave me in the same or worse situation.

I agree with tying up the 8 with the 7, but it's not clear from the first suggestion and your response which side of the 7 you are talking about. The key seems to be getting the 8 between the 7 and the pocket, not banking it to freeze on the outside of the 7 (between the 7 and the center diamond on the head rail).

You said the 8 doesn't bank into the pocket past the 7, but it looks like you could come real close, hitting on the long rail just short of the pocket, with pocket speed. Not a 100% shot, but not all that much of a long shot, either. It would depend on the angle, but if you could also get the cue to the long rail and leave a tough back-cut on the 6, all the better. [I can only view, not use, the WEI table at work or I'd draw it up.]

Regarding Jude's point, I don't think he meant to be insulting. But I think, for league purposes, I would also play a 3 much differently than I would someone of Jude's speed. Against Jude (or per his suggestion, Efren) I think you take the 8 cross-side and try to bring the CB four rails to the freeze on the foot rail.

Or, thinking that trying to do anything more than not scratching might lower the odds on the bank, and noting that even putting it on the foot rail probably loses, I might just shoot the bank and make sure to beat the 2-rail scratch in the side.

Cory

 

[Rod]

To me this shot looks fairly simple and your not giving up anything. Bank the 8 to carom off the 6. The c/b just slides over by the side pocket. The angle looks perfect plus its a slow shot.

START(
%A^5F7%C^7I0%Fl1W1%Gr8W4%Hi5E1%Ph3S6%Q[1C3%Wm4Y6%Xi6C7%]i4D9
%^h1T9%eB5b3%_\3D2%`c0C8%ah6E0
)END

Rod

 

[frankncali]

I agree with tying up the 8 with the 7, but it's not clear from the first suggestion and your response which side of the 7 you are talking about. The key seems to be getting the 8 between the 7 and the pocket, not banking it to freeze on the outside of the 7 (between the 7 and the center diamond on the head rail).

You said the 8 doesn't bank into the pocket past the 7, but it looks like you could come real close, hitting on the long rail just short of the pocket, with pocket speed. Not a 100% shot, but not all that much of a long shot, either. It would depend on the angle, but if you could also get the cue to the long rail and leave a tough back-cut on the 6, all the better. [I can only view, not use, the WEI table at work or I'd draw it up.]

Regarding Jude's point, I don't think he meant to be insulting. But I think, for league purposes, I would also play a 3 much differently than I would someone of Jude's speed. Against Jude (or per his suggestion, Efren) I think you take the 8 cross-side and try to bring the CB four rails to the freeze on the foot rail.

Or, thinking that trying to do anything more than not scratching might lower the odds on the bank, and noting that even putting it on the foot rail probably loses, I might just shoot the bank and make sure to beat the 2-rail scratch in the side.

Cory

Thanks
You have the shot in your head exactly as I saw it. I actually thought I might could bank it almost into the pocket near the 7ball.
Playing a better player I shoot at the bank in the side and still dont tie the ball up. That might be wrong but I figure that if I tie it up the better player
can out move me.
After looking at the suggestion I do like trying to get the cueball back to the long rail on the 7ball side of the table. My thoughts were that I did not want to give the person the 6 or an easy safe by touching the 7 but all in all I think leaving the ball on the long rail leaves more trouble.
thanks again.
BTW-- I saw your picture in the new gallery and I played a 3 man match right next to you I believe. I had a good time playing in the event and we finished 5th. There were some tough teams this year.
frankncali

 

[frankncali]

To me this shot looks fairly simple and your not giving up anything. Bank the 8 to carom off the 6. The c/b just slides over by the side pocket. The angle looks perfect plus its a slow shot.

START(
%A^5F7%C^7I0%Fl1W1%Gr8W4%Hi5E1%Ph3S6%Q[1C3%Wm4Y6%Xi6C7%]i4D9
%^h1T9%eB5b3%_\3D2%`c0C8%ah6E0
)END

Rod

Rod

When I shot it I was trying to get it off the 6. One problem was that the table was slow and I was not sure if I could have gotten the cueball out of the way. With the Wei table its tough sometimes to get the angles right.
It was defintely one of those shots that I would love to be able to set up exactly after shooting it.
It would be cool to have a button on the table that once pushed would indicate where to put the balls back to get the last layout.
thanks for your thoughts
frankncali

 

[Colin Colenso]

Rod

When I shot it I was trying to get it off the 6. One problem was that the table was slow and I was not sure if I could have gotten the cueball out of the way. With the Wei table its tough sometimes to get the angles right.
It was defintely one of those shots that I would love to be able to set up exactly after shooting it.
It would be cool to have a button on the table that once pushed would indicate where to put the balls back to get the last layout.
thanks for your thoughts
frankncali

Do you have a reply to my recommendation, as described a few posts back?

Diagram below to help visualize.

 

[Cory in DC]

BTW-- I saw your picture in the new gallery and I played a 3 man match right next to you I believe. I had a good time playing in the event and we finished 5th. There were some tough teams this year.
frankncali

Congrats on the 5th -- that's pretty strong in, I think, the toughest field yet. We took 17th (a 16 way tie), which made us pretty happy given that we just had 3 strong 6's and a super-7 who had to leave Monday night. In fact, when we got knocked out 2-1 on Tuesday I think our 7 was around a 10-1 favorite against their last player, if only he were still there...I'm pretty sure we'll be back next year.

Cory

 

[frankncali]

Do you have a reply to my recommendation, as described a few posts back?

Diagram below to help visualize.

Sorry Colin
I saw the shot and think I would play that one playing a good player.
For some reason the shot looks easier on the Wei Table than it did in the heat of the moment. I dont mind banking but in that situation I did not want to take to many chances.
Would you play that with just right or add top or bottom to it?...........................nevermind I see you have the english in the diagram.
thanks
frankncali

 

[Cory in DC]

Do you have a reply to my recommendation, as described a few posts back?

Diagram below to help visualize.

That's close to what I said: "Against Jude (or per his suggestion, Efren) I think you take the 8 cross-side and try to bring the CB four rails to the freeze on the foot rail." I pictured it coming a bit farther down the 2nd rail, then close to hitting the six, then over to the top-left rail, then down to the bottom rail.

Your way has the advantage of much less risk of running into the 6. On the other hand, with my way the speed to hold the CB on the foot rail is much easier to achieve because the CB will die off the third rail.

Cory