What are fair fees for tournament directors to charge
- Thread starter 336Robin
- Start date
Regardless of the perception of pool, it truly Is a professional position so I'd think AT LEAST $30 an hour
TD Charges
12hrs first day....6 hrs the next....18 x 30=$540
I dont think thats too far off......what about when you have small crowds vs....large crowds?
12hrs first day....6 hrs the next....18 x 30=$540
I dont think thats too far off......what about when you have small crowds vs....large crowds?
if he is organizing it and doing all the wok to bring it to fruition, at least 50 an hour for his services.
30 if he is just showing up and running an already setup tournament.
flat fee for the calcutta. not right to take a % of it. probably he shouldnt be involved in it and someone else should run that.
30 if he is just showing up and running an already setup tournament.
flat fee for the calcutta. not right to take a % of it. probably he shouldnt be involved in it and someone else should run that.
It doesn't work for small so I don't know. Like the next poster said and how I said at least, if they put a bunch of time into it it needs to be more. I disagree about r he calcutta. I think that is the perfect place to draw funds from btw.
Agree/Disagree
I like the part that you agree $50 and hour is not too much but the calcutta I disagree. Its a service the TD can offer in order to get paid. To me that's sort of like giving the icing away off of the cake.
I agree here. There is whole risk reward scenario here. The TD puts in a lot of hours off the clock so he has a lot of labor at risk that he might or might not get paid for. If he doesn't come with a product that the players favor then he's penalized for that. So I think its only right that when he does he gets a fair percentage of the fruits of his work to pay him back for the lean times. As far as percentage I think the idea is come with a fair percentage and maintain that no matter how his events shape up. This way he gets paid and people know that he's fair no matter what the size of the field.
I like the part that you agree $50 and hour is not too much but the calcutta I disagree. Its a service the TD can offer in order to get paid. To me that's sort of like giving the icing away off of the cake.
I agree here. There is whole risk reward scenario here. The TD puts in a lot of hours off the clock so he has a lot of labor at risk that he might or might not get paid for. If he doesn't come with a product that the players favor then he's penalized for that. So I think its only right that when he does he gets a fair percentage of the fruits of his work to pay him back for the lean times. As far as percentage I think the idea is come with a fair percentage and maintain that no matter how his events shape up. This way he gets paid and people know that he's fair no matter what the size of the field.
Last edited:
Whatever the market will support, which depends on the demand and the perceived quality of their service. I assume that this question comes from hearing players grumbling about the TD taking too much out of the pot, or something to that effect. I think that the issue there is usually that expectations are not set appropriately. If a TD is going to take a cut out of the pot, that amount should be specified along with the entry fee, whether it's a flat fee, a percentage, or just specifying the payouts in advance. If they can find another way to get paid (by the host establishment, sponsors, whatever...), then they can advertise a full payout.
Just to be clear, I do think that a good TD provides a service that they deserve to be compensated for. I also think that most tournament players are willing to pay for that service as long as they don't feel misled or ripped off. Whether they are willing to pay enough to make being a TD a viable occupation is just going to depend on the quality of service and the demand for it, so it's up to the TD to find the right balance. If they can get $50+/hour running a tournament and stay in business, that's great. Even then, I'm not sure it's really worth it if you consider travel and marketing, but if someone has a passion for it, maybe it's worth it to them.
Just to be clear, I do think that a good TD provides a service that they deserve to be compensated for. I also think that most tournament players are willing to pay for that service as long as they don't feel misled or ripped off. Whether they are willing to pay enough to make being a TD a viable occupation is just going to depend on the quality of service and the demand for it, so it's up to the TD to find the right balance. If they can get $50+/hour running a tournament and stay in business, that's great. Even then, I'm not sure it's really worth it if you consider travel and marketing, but if someone has a passion for it, maybe it's worth it to them.
The market
I agree. I think its a market type of thing. I haven't met a player yet that was opposed to the TD getting paid something and what they consider fair is usually me with......would you do it for that ? and them saying .....oh no not me. Which tells you what its really worth and who you are going to be dealing with a lot of the time. I'm almost of the opinion that a TD should just let the players figure it out because they are going to anyway. Someone is going to take the information that's public like prizes add the prizes up then divide the number of players and then find out what the percentage is. Just ask a player who plays a lot. They will tell you. The reason I posted the question is sort of a litmus test. I don't get to play much because of other things I do. Since I write Pool books I keep up with the current market for the sport and have conversations weekly about the market with other people.
I agree. I think its a market type of thing. I haven't met a player yet that was opposed to the TD getting paid something and what they consider fair is usually me with......would you do it for that ? and them saying .....oh no not me. Which tells you what its really worth and who you are going to be dealing with a lot of the time. I'm almost of the opinion that a TD should just let the players figure it out because they are going to anyway. Someone is going to take the information that's public like prizes add the prizes up then divide the number of players and then find out what the percentage is. Just ask a player who plays a lot. They will tell you. The reason I posted the question is sort of a litmus test. I don't get to play much because of other things I do. Since I write Pool books I keep up with the current market for the sport and have conversations weekly about the market with other people.
If you ask the players or most fans of players they would say that you are screwing the players by taking a single penny. You should do it "to grow the game" or some other nonsense.
If they wanna "grow the game" then THEY should put up the money and not expect somebody to WORK for free.
Jason
If they wanna "grow the game" then THEY should put up the money and not expect somebody to WORK for free.
Jason
I don't see any problem with just publishing the entry fee and payouts and letting the players figure things out from there. The truth is that I don't often see that on tournament advertisements. Usually it's just the entry fee and some ambiguous statement about the payouts, such as "$X added with X players". Added to what? I suppose that telling players up front that the TD will be taking some of their entry fee isn't ideal for marketing purposes, but it seems like full disclosure could save a lot of questions later on. Maybe most of the players that play in these events already know what that percentage is and are okay with it, but it seems like there's always someone complaining at the end of the tournament.
Personally, I'm not trying to get rich playing pool tournaments, so I just consider the entry fee an entertainment expense with a chance of an occasional return. I imagine a lot of the players in local and regional tournaments look at it the same way, so it really shouldn't be a deterrent to know that the person putting in all the work is getting a decent cut. It's the players that think they are owed something for the time they put into the game that are the issue...and I'll stop there before this becomes a rant. :smile:
I agree
I agree with what you are saying here pretty much a 100% part of me would publish what the take is and part of me knows people are either going to like it or not and some you can't please with anything you do. The reason that I sort of lean with the non disclosure is tournaments really shouldnt be some sort of race to see who doesn't mind doing them for nothing. Those tournaments won't happen often. I think the word of mouth advertising speaks for itself. Its not a get rich or even break even business in my opinion but this end of the business is reflective of the state of the sport.
I agree with what you are saying here pretty much a 100% part of me would publish what the take is and part of me knows people are either going to like it or not and some you can't please with anything you do. The reason that I sort of lean with the non disclosure is tournaments really shouldnt be some sort of race to see who doesn't mind doing them for nothing. Those tournaments won't happen often. I think the word of mouth advertising speaks for itself. Its not a get rich or even break even business in my opinion but this end of the business is reflective of the state of the sport.
60% to the TD for putting up with all the crybabies.
I would only ask - why isn't the place hosting the tournament paying this person directly and not the players?
If a place wants a DJ or Band to bring in customers, then they pay them to do so.
If a place is hosting a benefit, then they pay to do so (by giving time, space, items, labor and some times a % of $ taken in) as they make a killing on those.
The list of examples could go on but the bottom line is that the TD is providing a service to the place hosting to bring those players there.
In my opinion -
If a place is hosting a tournament then they should be paying the TD to organize, advertise and run it as it is bringing in customers for them. How well they do that would determine if they are paid or recommended to do it again.
A TD, over time, should accumulate a following just like a band or DJ that they directly communicate with and thus they have people they bring along with them.
I do not believe a TD is a $50/hr line of work.
=======
End of my opinion
If a place wants a DJ or Band to bring in customers, then they pay them to do so.
If a place is hosting a benefit, then they pay to do so (by giving time, space, items, labor and some times a % of $ taken in) as they make a killing on those.
The list of examples could go on but the bottom line is that the TD is providing a service to the place hosting to bring those players there.
In my opinion -
If a place is hosting a tournament then they should be paying the TD to organize, advertise and run it as it is bringing in customers for them. How well they do that would determine if they are paid or recommended to do it again.
A TD, over time, should accumulate a following just like a band or DJ that they directly communicate with and thus they have people they bring along with them.
I do not believe a TD is a $50/hr line of work.
=======
End of my opinion
Ideally yes, but those others that you mentioned are bringing in crowds that are buying a lot of alcohol and that is where the money is, not so much with the pool crowd.
Yes but no
Some of what you say sounds right until you consider the Pool Crowd doesn't draw a crowd nor spend a lot of money.Its not as if the Pool crowd doesnt have any value its just something that takes a long time to build
Ditto, it takes time and effort to make the Pool Crowd into an event that makes the room owner any money.I'm not against the players but if the rooms don't make there isnt anywhere to play.
Some of what you say sounds right until you consider the Pool Crowd doesn't draw a crowd nor spend a lot of money.Its not as if the Pool crowd doesnt have any value its just something that takes a long time to build
Ditto, it takes time and effort to make the Pool Crowd into an event that makes the room owner any money.I'm not against the players but if the rooms don't make there isnt anywhere to play.
So true. I'd rather have a 1/2 full room of "bangers" than a room full of "players"
Jason
I TD'd over 200 tournaments in my career over a span of 30+ years. There were many factors that went into negotiating a fee for my services, including duration of the event, size of field and number of tables available, which determines how long each day will be, and my responsibilities as TD.
Typically I was required to do the draw, run the players meeting, set the match schedule each day, figure out the payouts, referee and announce the matches, and answer all the questions from the players and spectators, plus do my best to keep everyone happy (virtually impossible). I learned early on that you will never satisfy everyone no matter how you do things. There will always be someone who is unhappy with something.
I had one fee for regional events and another for major tournaments. My travel expenses were always covered as well. Like I said everything was negotiable and changed over the course of time as my reputation grew. For a weekend regional event I might do it for a flat $500, although early on I did some for less and later on negotiated a 10% cut of the gate.
For major tournaments, I started out in the 1980's making $100 a day and by the 1990's I was making as much as $500 a day (Bicycle Casino, Las Vegas casinos, U.S. Open or World Championships). Remember these were typically 12-14 hour days! I don't remember ever working for an hourly rate. Normally I received a flat fee for running the event.
Doing TV commentary also paid quite differently depending on location and the network. In the Philippines I might get paid 5-10,000 pesos a day ($100-200 is a high rate of pay over there) and for a national TV network if might be $500-750 a day plus expenses. Billiards commentators get paid on a par with regional college basketball guys.
I never got rich running tournaments. I used to say it was a good part time job. I made a lot more money running my own poolrooms (try 500 a day, seven days a week).
Nowadays the real estate business supports me. Better pay for less work! :thumbup:
Typically I was required to do the draw, run the players meeting, set the match schedule each day, figure out the payouts, referee and announce the matches, and answer all the questions from the players and spectators, plus do my best to keep everyone happy (virtually impossible). I learned early on that you will never satisfy everyone no matter how you do things. There will always be someone who is unhappy with something.
I had one fee for regional events and another for major tournaments. My travel expenses were always covered as well. Like I said everything was negotiable and changed over the course of time as my reputation grew. For a weekend regional event I might do it for a flat $500, although early on I did some for less and later on negotiated a 10% cut of the gate.
For major tournaments, I started out in the 1980's making $100 a day and by the 1990's I was making as much as $500 a day (Bicycle Casino, Las Vegas casinos, U.S. Open or World Championships). Remember these were typically 12-14 hour days! I don't remember ever working for an hourly rate. Normally I received a flat fee for running the event.
Doing TV commentary also paid quite differently depending on location and the network. In the Philippines I might get paid 5-10,000 pesos a day ($100-200 is a high rate of pay over there) and for a national TV network if might be $500-750 a day plus expenses. Billiards commentators get paid on a par with regional college basketball guys.
I never got rich running tournaments. I used to say it was a good part time job. I made a lot more money running my own poolrooms (try 500 a day, seven days a week).
Nowadays the real estate business supports me. Better pay for less work! :thumbup:
Reasonable costs example
Sounds to me like you've made a lifetime example of reasonable TD charges. I'm not entirely sure I could have done it on what you did. Of course the cost of living has changed a lot over time. I can tell you wanted to work by your fees and how you've built such a following. Kudos to you but yes Real Estate is probably a lot easier.
Sounds to me like you've made a lifetime example of reasonable TD charges. I'm not entirely sure I could have done it on what you did. Of course the cost of living has changed a lot over time. I can tell you wanted to work by your fees and how you've built such a following. Kudos to you but yes Real Estate is probably a lot easier.
Agreed. It's unfortunate that most pool halls really have to be a bar first and a pool hall second to stay afloat, but that describes all of the rooms around here. If pool halls charged enough for table time to cover the rent, staff, and upkeep, everyone would go somewhere else. All the owners I know want to have a pool hall, but would probably be more profitable just running a bar with a few coin-ops.