What are the "different strokes that you need to develop," per Billy Incardona?

[JoeyA]

Some of the different strokes I use in one-pocket a drag shot, a drag shot with english, a masse shot, a wrist turn shot, a jump shot, a jacked up shot to jump over object ball with draw or follow, a punch shot, a roll shot, a power shot, extreme english shots, and probably a dozen more.

Wayne, would you mind detailing precisely what a "wrist turn shot" is and when it should be used? (Don't worry about the other poster, I'm serious and would love to hear your description)
Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[JoeyA]

To me, in the context of what Billy is saying, his meaning is that he thinks pocketing the balls in rotation is more difficult not only because of more difficult shots (read longer shots), but because of the combination of having to make the difficult long shots while using every imaginable combination of spin to get shape. Often, it is the unnatural position needed which makes the shot difficult.

He called it "strokes", others refer to them as "hits", and some even called them "englishes", but they are all referring to the different ways a cueball can be manipulated to achieve position. He is merely saying that these spins, which are needed to get shape, make the difficult shots even more difficult -and I don't think too many players would disagree with that statement. What is "developed" is not so much a special stroke, but the knowledge of how to hit the ball to achieve a particular effect.


Chris

REP to you Chris. I think you are spot on. And I think that many top players learn how to hit the cue ball to achieve unique effects and if you don't call that different strokes then I guess you can call them unique cue ball hits.

Every now and then when I am in stroke I some times need unusual shape and it requires me to hit the cue ball with inside spin and a partial drag stroke. It slows the cue ball's speed and then allow the inside spin to take affect and procure a position that I can't get any other way. I don't know what you want to call it but it feels a little different from my regular pendulum swing because I kind of let up on the forward swing of the cue stick when i do it (instead of following all the way through). It works and I'll let the dissenters have their way and let them call it what they want. even though it feels like a different stroke to me.
JoeyA

 

[scottycoyote]

i use some different variations on shots for a few of those unusual situations but i agree with some of the others where they say its all the same stroke. I will alter my back hand grip or whip my wrist more or less for some shots, but im still using the same over all "stroke"......i mean just because you slow it down or speed it up, does that make it a new stroke?

 

[JoeyA]

i use some different variations on shots for a few of those unusual situations but i agree with some of the others where they say its all the same stroke. I will alter my back hand grip or whip my wrist more or less for some shots, but im still using the same over all "stroke"......i mean just because you slow it down or speed it up, does that make it a new stroke?

ireally don't know. it is different than a regular stroke as I dont follow through as much. You know over on RSB, people used to argue that you couldn't "accelerate your cue through the cue ball". And the physics guys were probably correct but I am not interested in the letter of the law. I believe that the attempt to accelerate the cue through the cue ball has a postive and consistent effect on the outcome of your stroke. It's not just that either. There are many things that different players do thta possibly aren't scientifically correct but that doesn't mean that they are wrong, it simply means that we have to find a way to describe what it is that they are doing to accomplish those fantastic results. Think about Corey's super stroke shots. Just what else is he doing besides putting a pendulum stroke on the cue ball to get that cue ball to dance? Do you think it is just speed that does what he does?

JoeyA

 

[JoeyA]

i mean just because you slow it down or speed it up, does that make it a new stroke?

I guess it just depends upon your definition of "stroke"
Joeya

 

[prewarhero]

Freddy a couple of years ago mentioned an important stroke is the slip stroke. This is a must

 

[wincardona]

You Are A Player

To me, in the context of what Billy is saying, his meaning is that he thinks pocketing the balls in rotation is more difficult not only because of more difficult shots (read longer shots), but because of the combination of having to make the difficult long shots while using every imaginable combination of spin to get shape. Often, it is the unnatural position needed which makes the shot difficult.

He called it "strokes", others refer to them as "hits", and some even called them "englishes", but they are all referring to the different ways a cueball can be manipulated to achieve position. He is merely saying that these spins, which are needed to get shape, make the difficult shots even more difficult -and I don't think too many players would disagree with that statement. What is "developed" is not so much a special stroke, but the knowledge of how to hit the ball to achieve a particular effect.


Chris

Tate,
Your perception of my reference of differen't strokes was summarized perfectly. And no I don't want to play you.

 

[Jimmy M.]

While I might have a handful of different strokes I employ, I think the "fire-it-into-the-rail" stroke is the one that sees the most action these days.

I'd try to explain it in more detail but I don't think anyone wants to learn it.

 

[selftaut]

While I might have a handful of different strokes I employ, I think the "fire-it-into-the-rail" stroke is the one that sees the most action these days.

I'd try to explain it in more detail but I don't think anyone wants to learn it.

Jimmy, I have been perfecting that stroke for years, I use it on most my shots. The rest of the shots I use the "no-stroke" to complete my defeats.

 

[wincardona]

simplicity

The Monk teaches four different strokes, and claims to have had 50,000 satisfied students. (He advocates a different stroke for draw than for anything else, and admits that his "punch stroke" - the equivalent of boxing's jab - will cover close to 80% of all pool shots. Personally, I always liked Robert Byrne's analysis - "The ball does not know what you have done to it - and believe that one good sound stroke-production routine is really all you need. GF

Hi George,
He could be right when referring to the intermediate player,but if you want to play a world class speed you better develope more than the four basic strokes,my friend George. I know you have watched Reyes play quite a bit.He's a true technician ,and it's all about the stroke.Reyes is an artist in what he does,like a true artist painting a picture with differen't strokes of the brush to get the necessary results for the perfect picture.

 

[wincardona]

controlling the object ball

To me, in the context of what Billy is saying, his meaning is that he thinks pocketing the balls in rotation is more difficult not only because of more difficult shots (read longer shots), but because of the combination of having to make the difficult long shots while using every imaginable combination of spin to get shape. Often, it is the unnatural position needed which makes the shot difficult.

He called it "strokes", others refer to them as "hits", and some even called them "englishes", but they are all referring to the different ways a cueball can be manipulated to achieve position. He is merely saying that these spins, which are needed to get shape, make the difficult shots even more difficult -and I don't think too many players would disagree with that statement. What is "developed" is not so much a special stroke, but the knowledge of how to hit the ball to achieve a particular effect.
Chris
Very well put,like I agreed in an earlier post,but in addition to that you can also controll the object ball with the stroke. Once you develope an understanding of speed and how that effects the shot ,both in pocketing the ball and position play you'll take your game to another level. Finesse shots are hit with different speeds to achieve results,both in pocketing and positioning the balls

 

[Flex]

Very well put,like I agreed in an earlier post,but in addition to that you can also controll the object ball with the stroke. Once you develope an understanding of speed and how that effects the shot ,both in pocketing the ball and position play you'll take your game to another level. Finesse shots are hit with different speeds to achieve results,both in pocketing and positioning the balls

Thank you, sir, for weighing in on this.

One thing I've noticed, and would like your opinion on, is that when shooting a shot with english, for the same speed of stroke, it's possible to get different degrees of squirt on the cue ball, which obviously will affect how or if a ball pots, as well as different action on the cue ball after contact with the object ball. Adrian Vigueira, the 3 cushion player, told me that shooting with a stun stroke where the cue is gripped very tightly as opposed to using a very loose hold on the butt will produce two very different amounts of squirt.

Is this part of what you're saying above?

Thanks,

Flex

 

[wincardona]

Thank you, sir, for weighing in on this.

One thing I've noticed, and would like your opinion on, is that when shooting a shot with english, for the same speed of stroke, it's possible to get different degrees of squirt on the cue ball, which obviously will affect how or if a ball pots, as well as different action on the cue ball after contact with the object ball. Adrian Vigueira, the 3 cushion player, told me that shooting with a stun stroke where the cue is gripped very tightly as opposed to using a very loose hold on the butt will produce two very different amounts of squirt.

Is this part of what you're saying above?

Thanks,

Flex

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Originally Posted by Flex
Thank you, sir, for weighing in on this.

One thing I've noticed, and would like your opinion on, is that when shooting a shot with english, for the same speed of stroke, it's possible to get different degrees of squirt on the cue ball, which obviously will affect how or if a ball pots, as well as different action on the cue ball after contact with the object ball. Adrian Vigueira, the 3 cushion player, told me that shooting with a stun stroke where the cue is gripped very tightly as opposed to using a very loose hold on the butt will produce two very different amounts of squirt.

Is this part of what you're saying above?

Thanks,

Flex

Makes perfect sense to me.

Not to me. As George (kind of) says, the cue ball only "knows" three things about how you hit it: where (on the CB), from what direction and how hard. If any other information can be transmitted by a tip hitting a cue ball, I'd like to hear about it.

I'll bet anybody that I can reproduce any cue ball effect (even the effects produced by pros) with a simple "stroke machine", changing nothing but those three things. No accelerating through the ball, no extended contact time, no followthrough, no special techniques at all for follow, draw, force follow/draw, etc., etc. - just where on the CB, from what direction, and how hard. That's all there is.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Not to me. As George (kind of) says, the cue ball only "knows" three things about how you hit it: where (on the CB), from what direction and how hard. If any other information can be transmitted by a tip hitting a cue ball, I'd like to hear about it.

I'll bet anybody that I can reproduce any cue ball effect (even the effects produced by pros) with a simple "stroke machine", changing nothing but those three things. No accelerating through the ball, no extended contact time, no followthrough, no special techniques at all for follow, draw, force follow/draw, etc., etc. - just where on the CB, from what direction, and how hard. That's all there is.

pj
chgo

And in particular, you can't change the amount of squirt by changing your stroke.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyA]

Questions for Pat Johnson

And in particular, you can't change the amount of squirt by changing your stroke.

pj
chgo

Ok Pat, say I give you a pass on this? You're probably right anyway.

So how about telling us what the attempt to do these things actually does.

When shooting a shot, what do you think holding the cue tightly actually accomplishes?

What does the attempt at holding the cue tip on to the cue ball for an extra nanosecond do?

What does the attempt to accelerate the cue stick through the cue ball do?

What technique in shooting a shot can reduce the amount of squirt? (using the same amount of side spin)

Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[Andrew Manning]

Not to me. As George (kind of) says, the cue ball only "knows" three things about how you hit it: where (on the CB), from what direction and how hard. If any other information can be transmitted by a tip hitting a cue ball, I'd like to hear about it.

I'll bet anybody that I can reproduce any cue ball effect (even the effects produced by pros) with a simple "stroke machine", changing nothing but those three things. No accelerating through the ball, no extended contact time, no followthrough, no special techniques at all for follow, draw, force follow/draw, etc., etc. - just where on the CB, from what direction, and how hard. That's all there is.

pj
chgo

I'm quite sure you're correct in this, but it's really just a semantics argument. Players that change the "kind of stroke" they use to produce a certain effect, if they are good players who get results, are really just changing some combination of those three variable, and mentally conceptualizing it as a "different stroke". The sub-conscious plays so heavily even in the player with the most textbook and consistent fundamentals, that if you think about "punching" instead of "whipping", the speed, tip location, and direction of the cue are going to come out differently, especially if you have put in a lot of practice using this mental conceptualization of stroke manipulation.

The whole story is that it's 100% true that the ball doesn't know what kind of stroke got the tip to it, and that what matters are the direction, location, and magnitude of the impulse provided by the tip to ball contact. However, since manipulating these variables with great subtlety and minute precision is very difficult, people are going to use different mental tricks and physical techniques to make it work for them. So the "type of stroke" won't directly effect the shot necessarily, but it will generally effect the variables that do effect the shot. One specific kind of stroke is almost never necessary to achieve the desired result, but some players have more luck achieving one result with one kind of stroke and another result with a different one.

That said, I think those that promote one consistent stroking motion are right that the game is simpler that way, and that simplification should lead to consistency. But while related, simpler and easier are not 100% married to each other, nor are simpler and more effective.

-Andrew

 

[Andrew Manning]

I'll give these a shot, we'll see if Pat and I agree:

So how about telling us what the attempt to do these things actually does.

When shooting a shot, what do you think holding the cue tightly actually accomplishes?
Slows down the cue a bit due to muscle tension, may cause a slight lifting of the tip before contact, provides a different "feel" due to your grip dampening the vibrations that occur after contact. The muscle tension will affect different strokes different ways, and can be almost counted upon to affect where your tip actually hits the ball vs. where you intended.

What does the attempt at holding the cue tip on to the cue ball for an extra nanosecond do?
If you're trying to hold the tip on the ball, to me that implies you're trying to sneak up to it and "push" rather than "hit". What this really means is hitting it a lot softer, because you delay the acceleration of the cue until it's close to the ball and doesn't have much room to gather speed.

What does the attempt to accelerate the cue stick through the cue ball do?
It generally ensures that you accelerate the whole way TO the ball, meaning you hit with more speed. Also, thinking about acceleration for me leads to a subconscious idea of smoothness (rather than jerkiness), which is conducive to a more rapid muscle contraction, which also means you hit with more speed. So you're using a mental trick to just plain hit it harder.

What technique in shooting a shot can reduce the amount of squirt? (using the same amount of side spin)
Only hitting it softer (or using a different shaft with less tip end mass). Of course, as I've said, many of the mental tricks people use probably do result in hitting is softer, and thus decreasing squirt.

Thanks,
JoeyA

-Andrew

 

[mikepage]

I'm quite sure you're correct in this, but it's really just a semantics argument. Players that change the "kind of stroke" they use to produce a certain effect, if they are good players who get results, are really just changing some combination of those three variable, and mentally conceptualizing it as a "different stroke". [...]

I think Patrick and Andrew hit the nail on the head.

Here is one more reason for different strokes for different shots. It's not really a different reason; it's just expanding on Patrick and Andrews description.

Say the three variables are (1) contact point, (2) stick direction, and (3) stick speed. When you execute a particular stroke, there will be a certain range of error or uncertainty in each of these that will cause a corresponding error in the action of the cueball.

Here's the rub. There's a toothpaste tube effect with these errors, like when you squeeze the tube at one end and it pops out on the other side. When you work too hard to reduce the error in one of these, the error gets bigger in another one. For example, it's easiest to hit a particular contact point accurately with a very short bridge. But then your speed control suffers as your stick is going from zero to sixty in two inches. The optimum stroke is the one that makes the overall error in the cueball action the smallest. The mix of importance of (1), (2), and (3) is different for different shots.

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

strokes

I'm surprised no one mentioned the "swipe" stroke.
-cOOp