What are the "different strokes that you need to develop," per Billy Incardona?

[wayne]

Wayne, would you mind detailing precisely what a "wrist turn shot" is and when it should be used? (Don't worry about the other poster, I'm serious and would love to hear your description)
Thanks,
JoeyA

A wrist turn is a way to impart English while hitting the center of the cueball, you just turn your wrist left or right depending on what English you want. The more you turn your wrist the more English imparted.

You can use it in banking instead of using normal english. You can also make balls that don't quite go (the same way you can do it with english on the cueball) the advantage being you can hit center ball so it is easier to aim.

Some use it all the time because you don't need to compensate for throw or squirt. If you watch for it you will see some top pros using it regularly.

Just turn your wrist as you stroke and see the result.

 

[wincardona]

??????

And in particular, you can't change the amount of squirt by changing your stroke.

pj
chgo

Are you saying that if I hit the cue ball with two tips of english ,opposed to 3 tips of english with the same speed i'll get the same amount of squirt? You seem to be very versed on this topic.I've always compensated my aim depending on the amount of english I used. Please explain why i'm doing this wrong.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

JoeyA:
When shooting a shot, what do you think holding the cue tightly actually accomplishes?

AndrewM:
Slows down the cue a bit due to muscle tension, may cause a slight lifting of the tip before contact, provides a different "feel" due to your grip dampening the vibrations that occur after contact. The muscle tension will affect different strokes different ways, and can be almost counted upon to affect where your tip actually hits the ball vs. where you intended.

I'll defer to Andrew about the effects on your stroke, except that I agree with the highlighted part (probably affects tip placement). As for what a tighter grip does to the hit: nothing, IMO. The tip actually stops momentarily when it hits the cue ball - I don't think this is changed by a tighter grip because the soft flesh of your hand isn't rigid enough.

JoeyA:
What does the attempt at holding the cue tip on to the cue ball for an extra nanosecond do?

AndrewM:
If you're trying to hold the tip on the ball, to me that implies you're trying to sneak up to it and "push" rather than "hit". What this really means is hitting it a lot softer, because you delay the acceleration of the cue until it's close to the ball and doesn't have much room to gather speed.

I don't believe it can have any effect on tip/ball contact time - the tip is stopped by the impact and your fleshy grip hand can't countereffect that.

JoeyA:
What does the attempt to accelerate the cue stick through the cue ball do?

AndrewM:
It generally ensures that you accelerate the whole way TO the ball, meaning you hit with more speed. Also, thinking about acceleration for me leads to a subconscious idea of smoothness (rather than jerkiness), which is conducive to a more rapid muscle contraction, which also means you hit with more speed. So you're using a mental trick to just plain hit it harder.

I don't believe it has any effect on the shot (unless it's psychological).

JoeyA:
What technique in shooting a shot can reduce the amount of squirt? (using the same amount of side spin)

AndrewM:
Only hitting it softer (or using a different shaft with less tip end mass). Of course, as I've said, many of the mental tricks people use probably do result in hitting is softer, and thus decreasing squirt.

I'd say that hitting softer doesn't "reduce the amount of squirt", but increases the effect of swerve, which looks like reduced squirt.

I think all these different ways of thinking about your stroke *can* have some effect on the your stroke accuracy and consistency, and maybe it can be a positive effect, but it can just as easily be negative and it certainly overcomplicates things. I'd advise a learning player to keep it simple and focus on developing a straight, smooth, repeatable stroke.

I've never encountered any "voodoo" in pool that held up to close scrutiny. It ain't rocket surgery (it ain't easy either).

pj
chgo

 

[George Fels]

Couldn't agree more, Billy. Byrne would not be the teacher to whom top players would turn to for refinements, and he would not budge from that view even if they did. Good to hear from you! Best regards, GF

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
... you can't change the amount of squirt by changing your stroke.

Billy:
Are you saying that if I hit the cue ball with two tips of english ,opposed to 3 tips of english with the same speed i'll get the same amount of squirt? You seem to be very versed on this topic.I've always compensated my aim depending on the amount of english I used. Please explain why i'm doing this wrong.

I meant if you hit the same spot on the cue ball both times you'll get the same amount of squirt both times. If you hit harder or softer, then the amount of *apparent* squirt changes (it's actually the amount of swerve that changes), but I don't know of any other stroke change that can make a difference, assuming the contact point, butt elevation, etc. are the same.

Others here, like Mike Page, Ron Shepard and Bob Jewett (and probably some others I don't know), are much more versed in this stuff than I am. I'm just a wannabe pool scientist.

pj
chgo

 

[mikepage]

Are you saying that if I hit the cue ball with two tips of english ,opposed to 3 tips of english with the same speed i'll get the same amount of squirt? You seem to be very versed on this topic.I've always compensated my aim depending on the amount of english I used. Please explain why i'm doing this wrong.

Billy, I'm quite sure that's not what Patrick is saying.

I believe he's saying that you get the same squirt at two tips of english and a certain speed whether you got there by an SPFF stroke, a punch stroke, or as part of the final step in an eastern European folk dance.

 

[Andrew Manning]

I meant if you hit the same spot on the cue ball both times you'll get the same amount of squirt both times. If you hit harder or softer, then the amount of *apparent* squirt changes (it's actually the amount of swerve that changes), but I don't know of any other stroke change that can make a difference, assuming the contact point, butt elevation, etc. are the same.

Others here, like Mike Page, Ron Shepard and Bob Jewett (and probably some others I don't know), are much more versed in this stuff than I am. I'm just a wannabe pool scientist.

pj
chgo

I disagree with what you're saying about apparent squirt. I'm pretty sure actual squirt increases with a harder stroke with the same tip placement. I don't have the formulae on hand, but I believe stroke speed does change the squirt. Can someone who's more familiar with the Ron Shepard paper than I am clear that up?

-Andrew

 

[mikepage]

I disagree with what you're saying about apparent squirt. I'm pretty sure actual squirt increases with a harder stroke with the same tip placement. I don't have the formulae on hand, but I believe stroke speed does change the squirt. Can someone who's more familiar with the Ron Shepard paper than I am clear that up?

-Andrew

I haven't looked at Ron's paper in a while. I'm pretty sure he thinks squirt has at best a weak dependence on speed. His simple model of a constant "endmass" predicts no dependence at all. I think more good experiments are needed here.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

In another thread, Billy Incardona says there are "different strokes that you need to develop". Although Mr. Incardona didn't answer my questions about his very interesting statement in that other thread, for whatever reason, his post intrigued me quite a bit.

Could someone fill me in on what he's referring to, as Randy and Scott Lee and others seem to suggest there's really only one stroke that is necessary, a pendulum stroke with minimal or no elbow movement.

I've seen some doozies on the pool table, the cue ball doing the jitter bug and so on, and hope to gain some further understanding about which other strokes "need to be developed."

Perhaps Billy will see this thread and post here, and I hope he does. I also hope others will jump in...

Flex

I think he was talking about these strokes, not the mechanics.

Punch/Jab Stroke
Draw Stroke
Follow Stroke
Spin Stroke
. . . of course, combinations are implied

 

[Snap9]

Billy, these guys have not played enough one pocket to understand the effects of different strokes. LOL I agree with you 100% that there are numerous strokes to master for simply pocketing a ball no rail, one-rail, two-rails and three-rails. Throwing a ball into a pocket that will not go with nothing but english, a desired speed and an odd stroke will get you the cheese when you need it. This is just one example. Play enough one hole with some old-timers and you will eventually see some magic.

 

[Jal]

I disagree with what you're saying about apparent squirt. I'm pretty sure actual squirt increases with a harder stroke with the same tip placement. I don't have the formulae on hand, but I believe stroke speed does change the squirt. Can someone who's more familiar with the Ron Shepard paper than I am clear that up?

-Andrew

Platinum Billiards measured a 2-3% increase in squirt over a range of cueball speeds from 9mph to 21mph. One has to wonder how accurate this can be since it obviously takes a very precise setup to get these results. But these numbers are in the ball park of what some relatively simple theory would predict, based on effective offset. (The effective offset is greater than the initial offset because of ball rotation during contact.)

A big unknown is the difference in contact times at different speeds. However, you wouldn't expect too big a difference here.

So both theory and Platinum's tests suggest only a very small change in squirt with speed.

Jim

 

[wincardona]

I disagree with what you're saying about apparent squirt. I'm pretty sure actual squirt increases with a harder stroke with the same tip placement. I don't have the formulae on hand, but I believe stroke speed does change the squirt. Can someone who's more familiar with the Ron Shepard paper than I am clear that up?

-Andrew

I believe your right,atleast that's the way i've been playing for over 45 years with fairly good results.Just imagine if we were wrong how much we could improve our games with a minor adjustment.

 

[wincardona]

Platinum Billiards measured a 2-3% increase in squirt over a range of cueball speeds from 9mph to 21mph. One has to wonder how accurate this can be since it obviously takes a very precise setup to get these results. But these numbers are in the ball park of what some relatively simple theory would predict, based on effective offset. (The effective offset is greater than the initial offset because of ball rotation during contact.)

A big unknown is the difference in contact times at different speeds. However, you wouldn't expect too big a difference here.

So both theory and Platinum's tests suggest only a very small change in squirt with speed.

Jim

But enough of a difference in squirt to lose your inning,or match,or even a tournament if not compensated for.

 

[Jal]

But enough of a difference in squirt to lose your inning,or match,or even a tournament if not compensated for.

Maybe in your game, but not mine. (I probably couldn't tell the difference between a 30% change in squirt and a duck.) Trying to separate this out from the much larger effects of a change in swerve, throw, and maybe even ball compression, would be asking too much of my skill level....and perhaps anyone's?

Jim

 

[Flex]

And in particular, you can't change the amount of squirt by changing your stroke.

pj
chgo

While you may be right Pat, Adrian showed me the difference in person. Maybe his stroke changed when he did one or the other. I can't really say. But at least he believes it, and depending on how he stroked the same shot at apparently the same speed, which was not warp speed, but a medium stroke, he sure did get two slightly different results.

Flex

 

[Flex]

Platinum Billiards measured a 2-3% increase in squirt over a range of cueball speeds from 9mph to 21mph. One has to wonder how accurate this can be since it obviously takes a very precise setup to get these results. But these numbers are in the ball park of what some relatively simple theory would predict, based on effective offset. (The effective offset is greater than the initial offset because of ball rotation during contact.)

A big unknown is the difference in contact times at different speeds. However, you wouldn't expect too big a difference here.

So both theory and Platinum's tests suggest only a very small change in squirt with speed.

Jim

Do you by any chance know what the speed of the cue ball coming off the tip of the cue when shooting a perfect lag shot on a fast 9 foot table might be?

And how that will differ if the shot will take the cue ball to the 3rd end rail?

I bet it's not 9 mph, but I'd love to know what these kinds of speeds are.

Or how fast the cue ball is moving to go from one long rail and die on the opposite long rail, straight across the table, would be.

Flex

 

[Flex]

I believe your right,atleast that's the way i've been playing for over 45 years with fairly good results.Just imagine if we were wrong how much we could improve our games with a minor adjustment.

Billy, there's no doubt that you're right. If anybody wants to do their own personal experiment to be convinced once and for all, do this:

Place an object ball anywhere on the table and the cue ball one diamond away. The point of this is not to pocket the ball, just to learn how tip placement and speed of stroke will affect squirt on the table.

Now, aiming straight through the cue ball at the edge of the object ball, shoot with the softest stroke you can to get the cue ball to kiss the edge of the object ball. It doesn't matter where you are aiming through the cue ball, that is to say with what amount of english, but to make it more interesting, do this with 2 tips of english, right on the equator of the cue ball. The english you should use will squirt the cue ball away from the object ball. Once you find you're getting the cue ball to just kiss the edge of the object ball with a very slow stroke speed, up the speed just a bit, and you'll find you're no longer hitting the object ball at all. Boost the stroke speed to firm and you'll miss the object ball by a lot. Shoot break speed and no way you'll hit that object ball.

Each cue and shaft and tip are different. What I've described here works with any cue, it's just the degree of compensation that will vary.

Once again, Billy, you are right.

Flex

 

[JoeyA]

Billy, these guys have not played enough one pocket to understand the effects of different strokes. LOL I agree with you 100% that there are numerous strokes to master for simply pocketing a ball no rail, one-rail, two-rails and three-rails. Throwing a ball into a pocket that will not go with nothing but english, a desired speed and an odd stroke will get you the cheese when you need it. This is just one example. Play enough one hole with some old-timers and you will eventually see some magic.

While Patrick may not play one pocket at the same speed as Billy Incardona, you can be sure that he does his homework as a wannabee pool scientist and is technically right in almost everything he says.

I like what Pat said about swerve possibly being the reason why it appears that a firm stroke squirts the cue more. (maybe he didn't say that but that's what i interpreted) Many players do not think much about swerve although they use it quite frequently to "swerve" the cue ball minutely around object balls. The natural downward stroke imparts a slight swerve to the cue ball especially at slower speeds. With a fast stroke and the swerve does not have as good a chance for it to take effect, so when you are shooting at a ball with inside spin the cue ball is going to swerve some at low to medium speeds. All good pool players already know this whether instinctively or by text book. In the past, I didn't think much about swerve except when I needed it to swerve around a ball and pocket an object ball but I just called it curving the cue ball.

I really don't know when a swerve becomes a masse but of course the masse has to be considered a major swerve.

Anyway, if you shoot the cue ball with inside spin at a fast rate of speed you will not get much swerve. Swerve counteracts squirt so if you have less swerve the cue ball will look like it squirts more. And so if you shoot with a medium stroke with a slight downward strike on the cue ball (which is very natural most of the time) the cue ball will swerve more than if you strike it with a fast stroke, therefore it will look like the cue ball did not squirt as much. Squirt sends the cue ball one direction and swerve pulls the cue ball in the opposite direction. (just trying to clarify swerve and squirt a little more as I have come to know it).

I may have not explained this well enough but that's my two cents on it and I'm sticking to it until Pat tells me different.

JoeyA

 

[Bob Jewett]

... ... I also hope others will jump in...

Maybe not related exactly to what has been discussed so far, but here are two columns about what some might consider different strokes.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-10.pdf

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-11.pdf

My own feeling is that one standard way of hitting the cue ball fits 99% of the shots at pool. If there are specific shots that require special techniques (that aren't covered in the articles above), I'd like to hear about them. Especially, I'd like to hear about shots that cannot be made with the standard "straight through the cue ball without the elbow moving much" shot. And there are such shots.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

Don'tchya

JoeyA. wrote:
Squirt sends the cue ball one direction and swerve pulls the cue ball in the opposite direction. (just trying to clarify swerve and squirt a little more as I have come to know it).


Yeah, but. You reduce both squirt and swerve with the use of backhand english as opposed to offset english.
Doug