Just FYI, in case there is any confusion here I didn't start this thread to cause trouble. I had seen something and was curious as it seems were some others. Sorry Randy, not my intention.
What did I miss with the BCA instructors
- Thread starter bfdlad
- Start date
I think we all understand
Bfdlad, we all understand that you had real questions and concerns. I thought it was a good thread. A great chance to clear the air of some misinformation. It all went wrong when someone attacked Randy G .
That person will not accept any explanation cause he has a preconceived view of the way the PBIA / BCA was formed and how it handles its finances.
Its like trying to push rope, no matter what way you push it , it will find a way to go another direction.
Bfdlad, we all understand that you had real questions and concerns. I thought it was a good thread. A great chance to clear the air of some misinformation. It all went wrong when someone attacked Randy G .
That person will not accept any explanation cause he has a preconceived view of the way the PBIA / BCA was formed and how it handles its finances.
Its like trying to push rope, no matter what way you push it , it will find a way to go another direction.
OK, I'm starting to understand it now.
On the PBIA web site it states:
"The PBIA, formerly known as the BCA Instructor Program, was established in 1992 by the Billiard Congress of America. While still an asset of the Billiard Congress of America, the association elected to create a separate organization in 2011 to better carry out the organization’s mission."
It's a bit of a strange way to define it as an 'asset' since that word is a very specific accounting term. Usually owned companies are listed as equity items on the balance sheet, but I can understand what they mean.
Also, the announcement of 3 founding 'partners' on the web site is also a very specific accounting term. It seems to be now sharing ownership with three other organizations. The specifics of that new arrangement as well as percentage of ownership is obviously, their private arrangement.
I'm sure that the instructors don't own the organization. They are just managing it under the present owners.
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???
What's wrong with the truth? It's on the web site. It's not like the BCA is looking to hide anything.
Sir,
I may be wrong, but I thought that the governing body was now the WPA. I think that the BCA is more or less under the WPA. Again, I may be wrong. That is part of the problem, confusion.
I am sorry if I have mis-stated. However that does not change my concern about knowing the true relationship between the BCA & the PBIA. Especially if one is thinking about 'joining' either one.
American 'pool' needs help. Any help would be appreciated.
Best Regards to You &
What kind of response is that to a fellow master instructor that is simply trying to understand the true relationship that now exists since the creation of the PBIA?
Ms. Crimi's credentials & accomplishments speak for themselves. If she does not understand it how can a newly certified or potential instructor understand it?
Is it all based on faith?
It seems that the BCA 'sold' out it's responsibility regarding their 'certifiication' of instuctors. If so, shame on them.
If I am wrong, then please correct.
I'm not trying to fan any flames or cause any 'hard feelings'.
It just seems that there is much misunderstanding that is not being clarified in simple terms.
One answer seems to beget another question.
Can anyone but the PBIA certify an instructor that would be acceptable to the BCA? If the BCA is the governing body of cue sports in the U.S. then that would seem to be a monopoly, if as has been said earlier that the 'instructors' 'own' the PBIA. If that is the case, then there would seem to be a conflict of interest.
In other words, is the PBIA the BCA's exclusive instructor 'certification' process?
The more I think about it the more the whole thing seems to smell.
No offense meant & with Regards &
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Billiard Congress of America Trade Association
Because the BCA has turned towards the Trade Association configuration, the umbrella for the organization changed.
The BCA Pool Leagues were formerly under this umbrella. In their context of "asset", they were never self sustaining with league dues, and had to be partially supported from Trade Member Association Dues.
The BCA Certified Instructors Program is the exact description of their position within the BCA umbrella. A Program created to develop and enhance the abilities for teaching pool. This was not connected to the pool league, but a completely separate entity in the programs department. Randy Goettlicher, Bob Jewett, Richard Rohrer, Jerry Briesath, and others are some of the founding developers of this Program. Because it is a Program, it is not defined as an asset for accounting purposes. BCA Staff handle BCA Instructor services as a part of the job description.
The renaming of the Instructors Program to the PBIA, is quite possibly a preparatory move, to eventually reach full fledged independence from the Trade Association. Since I am not privvy to Board meetings, I am only speculating. As a Non Profit Trade Group it would be in their best interest to do this, and save the cost of administration. Because all PBIA Board Members pay their own way, this has an economic impact on the ability of the organization to stand alone at this time.
The sponsorship of PBIA is actually a show of support by those 3 companies, as they are already dues paying members to the Trade Association, and vis a vis, are already paying for Admin Support. They should be applauded for their Marketing Support, which is something we all want.
There is no "ownership" of the PBIA. The BCA doesn't own it.
This was the same questioned posed by the BCA Attorney's in regards to the State Associations that BCA Pool Leagues had established before being sold to Mark Griffin. Each State Association was declared Independent, and not under the control, but rather the "sanctioning" clause. This is very similar to the "sanctioning" of instructors(which allows instructors to earn an income as a service, just like league operators are allowed to.).
Fran's questions are good ones.
The PBIA needs to grow, and I am hopeful they will. Two hundred Instructors is not adequate to meet the needs of the millions of players, and the generations to come. The PBIA is a Good Thing.
As far as the WPA and "Governing Body" question, I'll save that for later.
cajunfats
Knows and Loves RandyG, Scott Lee and Fran Crimi!
Perhaps the way the BCA is structured as a Non Profit 501(c)3 Association has a lot to do with the confusion.
Because the BCA has turned towards the Trade Association configuration, the umbrella for the organization changed.
The BCA Pool Leagues were formerly under this umbrella. In their context of "asset", they were never self sustaining with league dues, and had to be partially supported from Trade Member Association Dues.
The BCA Certified Instructors Program is the exact description of their position within the BCA umbrella. A Program created to develop and enhance the abilities for teaching pool. This was not connected to the pool league, but a completely separate entity in the programs department. Randy Goettlicher, Bob Jewett, Richard Rohrer, Jerry Briesath, and others are some of the founding developers of this Program. Because it is a Program, it is not defined as an asset for accounting purposes. BCA Staff handle BCA Instructor services as a part of the job description.
The renaming of the Instructors Program to the PBIA, is quite possibly a preparatory move, to eventually reach full fledged independence from the Trade Association. Since I am not privvy to Board meetings, I am only speculating. As a Non Profit Trade Group it would be in their best interest to do this, and save the cost of administration. Because all PBIA Board Members pay their own way, this has an economic impact on the ability of the organization to stand alone at this time.
The sponsorship of PBIA is actually a show of support by those 3 companies, as they are already dues paying members to the Trade Association, and vis a vis, are already paying for Admin Support. They should be applauded for their Marketing Support, which is something we all want.
There is no "ownership" of the PBIA. The BCA doesn't own it.
This was the same questioned posed by the BCA Attorney's in regards to the State Associations that BCA Pool Leagues had established before being sold to Mark Griffin. Each State Association was declared Independent, and not under the control, but rather the "sanctioning" clause. This is very similar to the "sanctioning" of instructors(which allows instructors to earn an income as a service, just like league operators are allowed to.).
Fran's questions are good ones.
The PBIA needs to grow, and I am hopeful they will. Two hundred Instructors is not adequate to meet the needs of the millions of players, and the generations to come. The PBIA is a Good Thing.
As far as the WPA and "Governing Body" question, I'll save that for later.
cajunfats
Knows and Loves RandyG, Scott Lee and Fran Crimi!
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What kind of response is that to a fellow master instructor that is simply trying to understand the true relationship that now exists since the creation of the PBIA?
Ms. Crimi's credentials & accomplishments speak for themselves. If she does not understand it how can a newly certified or potential instructor understand it? Fran understands it very well.
Is it all based on faith? NO!
It seems that the BCA 'sold' out it's responsibility regarding their 'certifiication' of instuctors. If so, shame on them.
They did not sell out. Shame on you.
If I am wrong, then please correct.
I'm not trying to fan any flames or cause any 'hard feelings'.
None taken.
I just seems that there is much misunderstanding that is not being clarified in simple terms.
One answer seems to beget another question.
Can anyone but the PBIA certify an instructor that would be acceptable to the BCA? If the BCA is the governing body of cue sports in the U.S. then that woud seem to be a monopoly, if as has been said earlier that the 'instructors' 'own' the PBIA. If that is the case, then there would seem to be a conflict of interest.
The BCA does neither accept or reject, the PBIA does.
In other words, is the PBIA the BCA's exclusive instructor 'certification' process? NO
The more I think about it the more the whole thing seems to smell.
Quit thinking and the smell will go away....
No offense meant & with Regards &
See you soon,
randyg
I appreciate how much thought you put into this.
If the BCA is still a non profit org, then I'm pretty sure it is a 501(c)6. The (c)3 status of tax exempt was taken away from sport associations several years ago. However, the BEF (Billiard Education Foundation) still qualifies as a (c)3 due to it's education scholarship foundation aspect.
No organization is owned by 'no one.' Corporations are owned by shareholders. Partnerships are owned by partners. Somebody, some people, or some entity(s) owns the PBIA. They have a bank account, because that's who we wrote our dues checks to. Therefore they are an entity and not a program.
I'm leaning towards the 'founding partners' along with the BCA as owners.
What does, "See you soon" mean? Will I now be banned for asking questions?
Again, you play a word game by going through my post & nit picking it in some regard.
So, 'we', or I, am made to pull 'teeth' like a dentist.
If Ms. Crimi understands, as you say, then why is she asking questions?
It certainly seems to be faith based since we can't seem to get a full & complete explanation without word games.
If they did not 'sell out' or shirk or pass off, how so?
No... no shame on me. I did nothing to warrant shame & how dare you suggest such.
I'm glad there are no hard feelings, but this is getting a bit frustrating.
What do you mean that the BCA neither accepts nor rejects, the PBIA does? Does the PBIA not do so on behalf of the BCA?
If the PBIA is not the exclusive instructor 'accepting' body, you else is?
"Quit thinking and the smell will go away". Are you serious? Do you know how that sounds? I can't believe you said that.
So...when something starts to 'smell', quit thinking about it & the 'smell' will go away, instead of continuing to sniff until the 'smell' is explained away.
Again I mean no harm. I am merely trying to get a full & meaningful understanding of the vaugaries that this thread has brought up.
A full & complete explanation of the relationship between the BCA & PBIA would be enlightening. Mr. Carl made an attempt to the best of his understanding, but he is not fully aware & thus much is still unclear.
It appears that it will remain unclear unless someone does an investigative report. It will not be me, but it appears that one should be done.
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Fran, you are correct. The By-Laws still show 501(c)3, but that was changed a few years ago for Trade Associations to the 501(c)6. I went to IRS.gov and checked. I have been involved with a local theatre non profit that has the 501(c)3 still applicable. Thanks for the update.
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Sure, no prob. When that change occurred several years ago, it created a massive uproar in the sporting world, because it went much deeper than just trade organizations. Player organizations like the PGA, suddenly found themselves unable to offer their sponsors charitible contribution deductions for their massive sponsorship payments.
The same goes for our sport. All Players Associations, like the WPBA, for example, were also downgraded to (c)6's.
What am I missing here? You are discussing a group of top notch billiard instructors. Around 200 I think. The yearly dues are less than an entry fee into a "Pro" tournament in Vegas. The discussion turned personal between longtime friends and colleagues. Why is it so important to know "where the money goes"? Is anyone getting rich? Sure doubt that. I have great respect for the instructors ability to explain to and guide a players a path to improvement. Why don't we just declare the BCA dead (which it is to pool players), declare a new winner and get on with helping the players? Whatever the organizations name is!
Lyn
Lyn
It's important to understand what you are a member of. You may not care, but I do.
As far as I can tell, nobody is taking anything personal here. It's just a discussion.
Going to Pay to become PBIA Certified
I am going to take the PBIA class.
I have several questions for RandyG.
RandyG are you a official spokesman and a owner in PBIA.
When I become certified PBIA instructor will I become a Partner/Owner.
Will I be a equal Partner/Qwner of the PBIA?
Will, I have the same voting rights as you, one vote in the Organization.
Or will I be just a dues paying member?
Thanks, Barney
I am going to take the PBIA class.
I have several questions for RandyG.
RandyG are you a official spokesman and a owner in PBIA.
When I become certified PBIA instructor will I become a Partner/Owner.
Will I be a equal Partner/Qwner of the PBIA?
Will, I have the same voting rights as you, one vote in the Organization.
Or will I be just a dues paying member?
Thanks, Barney
BCA is not "dead".
I liked your comment till your second last sentence.
Why do you think the BCA is "dead" to pool players? The BCA has had an active league system for over three decades, and it's still going strong.
Your statement is very inaccurate and unfair to the BCA and all of us who appreciate what they've done for the game over the years.
And while Randy did get a bit impatient on this thread, he did answer the questions...and he's given a lot for the game as well.
I liked your comment till your second last sentence.
Why do you think the BCA is "dead" to pool players? The BCA has had an active league system for over three decades, and it's still going strong.
Your statement is very inaccurate and unfair to the BCA and all of us who appreciate what they've done for the game over the years.
And while Randy did get a bit impatient on this thread, he did answer the questions...and he's given a lot for the game as well.
The BCA hasn't had a league system for many years now, they sold it to Mark Griffin, who still uses the name BCApl. ("pl" added for Pool League) The fact the name is the same has created confusion regarding what the BCA does or doesn't do, so far as actually being involved in pool beyond the trade show aspect.
What they actually do is a subject for others, but they have not had a league system for some time now.
calling out to Fran and English
You have drug this thread down to the dirt and then drug it over to the instructors forum and derailed a positive thread that randy had started.
Why don't you stop pussy footing around and ask the question that you want to know, WHERE IS THE MONEY, HOW MUCH , WHO IS IN CONTROLL. We all know that is what you really want to know. Now what makes you think you deserve to know this information? Second why do you bring this to a public forum instead of calling Randy and asking about the money, but I think that would take to much nerve, its much easier here behind the keyboard. Where were you a couple of years ago when the PBIA was started. Why now?
You have drug this thread down to the dirt and then drug it over to the instructors forum and derailed a positive thread that randy had started.
Why don't you stop pussy footing around and ask the question that you want to know, WHERE IS THE MONEY, HOW MUCH , WHO IS IN CONTROLL. We all know that is what you really want to know. Now what makes you think you deserve to know this information? Second why do you bring this to a public forum instead of calling Randy and asking about the money, but I think that would take to much nerve, its much easier here behind the keyboard. Where were you a couple of years ago when the PBIA was started. Why now?