What do you aim at?

[pete lafond]

Seems to me if youl don't know all of the different systems that are actually out there and how perform them, that's a totally incorrect statement. Fact is...they very well may, and DO, go FAR BEYOND anything that you've been discussing so far to help make balls.

Let's assume you're playing 9-ball...race to 7. You're down 6-4.

The 9ball is one diamond from the corner pocket and 6" from the rail. The 6 is at the middle diamond 5" from the rail and the 7 & 8 are tied up kissing each other on the other end of the table with no way of breaking them up. The CB is at the next diamond from the center pocket about 3-4" from the rail. You rule out a safety or a kick and have to take the combination shot right now.
Tell me your exact step by step process of lining that shot up and visualizing how to make it into the corner pocket, or explaining it to someone else.

As I am stroking I am looking at the 9 balls path to the pocket. My alignment it to shoot it on a slight over cut side. The cb is not being considered as I now see the 6 ball as the cue ball. My alignment is done. I simply hit the 6 into the nine to place it on its path. Mentally this shot is easier if my mind sees paths, not points. It is knowing and having all the confidence in the world that I will hit the 6 into the nine. No, I do not align points, as I can see both paths at once and even adjust my alignments as I am stroking.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Aiming on the cutting edge...by Todd Leveck

I guess if you never stop to read a book on any subject...nothing will be relevant to you. Therefore, it doesn't exist. Physics on paper in 2D doesn't mean shit.

C'mon DM,
I've read every book I've been able to get my hands on related to billiards.

A lot of the US stuff I have missed...wish a had a few spare grand and I'd purchase the lot on amazon if I had a comprehensive list.

Anyway, thanks for the book name, I'll look it up.

btw: I'm in a good mood after picking up 500RMB playing a few donkeys for cash tonight. They challenged me, I never challenge for $$. Sometimes christmas comes in August

 

[billfishhead]

i look at the babe 3 tables away,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,prob why i miss so much

 

[JLW]

I've been reading a lot on this thread about snooker, and I wanted to put in my .02 worth.

I've played a fair amount of the game, and it does require superior pocketing skills. No question about it. The tables are bigger, the balls are smaller, and the pockets are smaller. No pool table I have ever played on has pockets even close to the tightness of the snooker tables I play on. So forget about making long shots down the rail on most snooker tables. If they're not hit perfectly, they'll jar out. The side pockets are rounded and seem to be easy targets. But, again, you must hit the cb exactly in the middle of them or the ball will jar out. Don't use too much english, or the ball will jar out. And don't shoot too hard, or guess what, the ball will jar out.

As for some of the comments about pool somehow requiring more all around skill than snooker, I would say that's not necessarilly true. Snooker is a lot more than just pocketing straight in shots. The break in snooker is basically a straight pool break. And often, the pack must be opened in much the same manner that you would open a pack in straight pool. Defense and leave are huge parts of the snooker game, and snooker players must be very adept at banking and kicking at balls. Why do you think Allison Fisher and Karen Corr are so good at playing safeties and kicking at balls? As far as the position of the numbered balls. They are usually not on the spots when the final red ball has been made. So the notion that they are easy to run out because of where they get spotted doesn't make sense to me. They could be anywhere on the table.

Snooker is a great game, and I would highly recommend it to anyone who plays pool. There is a great deal of strategy involved, especially when you play as a team. And if you want to improve your aim, play a few hours of snooker for a few days. You'll be amazed at how easy some shots will look on a pool table.

 

[wayne]

No need to edit it Wayne,
People may reasonable debate the number, but I believe their are thousands of very accurate potting snooker players.

I did clarify that pool players have other strengths such as banking, kicks, pool strategy, masses etc, and I would add to that list playing with a lot of side english and probably cut shots as they do these a lot more.

But in straight up potting, such a potting from full angle to 1/4 ball over 4 to 10 feet into a narrow pocket target, which requires very accurate aiming, the snooker players are much better than pool players on average.

Everyone I have talked to that is familiar with both games and has spent a reasonable amount of time watching the best players in both games has agreed that this is the case.

I have watched probably a thousand hours of videos of each game...have you?

Snooker players who try 9-ball may struggle at times, because they are not used to the larger balls and positioning strategies. They're out of their element. But a most good snooker players can become very good 9-ball players quite quickly with a bit of practice.

Take 'The One' as an example. After only a few 9-ball events under his belt he is matching it with many of the best pro 9 ballers. His background was snooker and he was a very good junior, but still quite a way from the pros. Outside the top 1000 I'd guess.

The fact is, in pool, potting accuracy is not as crucial as in snooker. Snooker is also a much bigger money sport, so there is a big depth of very accurate potters in the game. To me it is ridiculous to ignore what can be learned about straight up potting systems that snooker players use.

When it comes to pool potting systems using a lot of english, they may have viability because pool players do play more shots with heavy english than snooker players.

Maybe some players here who have watched a lot of snooker or who have played with some top snooker players could comment on the relative accuracy of snooker players v pool players in regards to straight up potting. That is, shots with little english required.

Please explain to me how a guy (Efren) who is out of the top 10,000 in potting skill could defeat Jimmy White and Ronnie O'Sullivan in challenge matches using his friggin' pool cue and run 3 centuries while he is doing it at the ripe old age of 44 and without even practicing or playing snooker regularly before he did it?????

There are lot of poolplayers who have tremendous potting skills, just because none of them ever took up Snooker seriously doesnt mean they weren't capable of doing it. Snooker is a much easier game to pot balls than pool since you are doing the same patterns over and over and over again. Running out the yellow through black is a piece of cake on a snooker table because they are almost always in the same place and it is so simple to play position. After you play the game for awhile it gets very easy. A lot of the safeties are repeated over and over again also. If you want to see some players with some real potting skills watch some 1-pocket players running out into one hole from everywhere. I would venture to say that there are 10,000 one pocket players who could make shots that snooker players have never even dreamt of. Talk about pocketing skills.

Wayne

 

[LastTwo]

What do you mean by lag?

Snooker players on average hit many more power shots than pool players. They are very accurate with power. They avoid dribbling balls in whenever possible as it leads to a lot of kicks.

Rarely do you see a snooker player draw the table length or follow three or four cushions for position. They have the strokes and ability to do it, but the game doesn't require it as often as 9-ball. A strong 9-ball plays patterns as simple as possible so some racks never require a power stroke, but some do, and much more often than snooker. Snooker has the straight pool aspect to it and after the cherries are cleared the game becomes rotation, but MOST of the time the pattern is the EXACT SAME THING every time, and the balls are positioned so that you work in one direction running out rather than going up and down the table. Please explain why you think snooker players use more power shots than 9-ball players.

 

[JLW]

Snooker has the straight pool aspect to it and after the cherries are cleared the game becomes rotation, but MOST of the time the pattern is the EXACT SAME THING every time, and the balls are positioned so that you work in one direction running out rather than going up and down the table.

This thread has had a lot of discussion about snooker players' pocketing ability and playing skill. Many seem to feel that all you need to do to play snooker is shoot long straight in shots and a few simple patterns that never change.

I've got to respectfully disagree with this argument. It takes a great deal of skill to play snooker well. Like straight pool, it's about more than just shooting a few straight in shots. My experience has been that the numbered balls are usually not on all the spots after the last red has been made. And the pattern is definitely not exactly the same every time. There are a lot of balls on a snooker table, and numbered balls tend to get bumped around just like on any other table. For example, you shoot a red ball and the cb hits the 7 unintentionally knocking it toward a rail and making it a more difficult ball to pocket. Therefore, you would choose to shoot other numbered balls instead. Once all the red balls are gone, the 7 is still on the rail. In fact, many times you will have the 6 and 7 at opposite ends of the table when the last red is made. What's more difficult than going back and forth on a pool table to pocket balls? Doing it on a snooker table.

Let's give snooker players their due. They are very skilled players. And, as it relates to aiming, they must shoot extremely accurately in order to pocket balls.

 

[LastTwo]

I've got to respectfully disagree with this argument. My experience has been that the numbered balls are usually not on all the spots after the last red has been made. And the pattern is definitely not exactly the same every time. There are a lot of balls on a snooker table, and numbered balls tend to get bumped around just like on any other table. For example, you shoot a red ball and the 7 gets unintentionally knocked toward a rail, making it a more difficult ball to pocket. Therefore, you would choose to shoot other balls instead. Once all the red balls are gone, the 7 is still on the rail. In fact, many times you will have the 6 and 7 at opposite ends of the table when the last red is made. What's more difficult than going back and forth on a pool table to pocket balls? Doing it on a snooker table.

There is a big difference in me saying MOST of the time and EVERY time. I said most. I am also talking about professional snooker, not when amatuers play. I've watched many tapes of pro snooker rarely do the balls down table get disturbed, and if they do it's not by much.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Rarely do you see a snooker player draw the table length or follow three or four cushions for position. They have the strokes and ability to do it, but the game doesn't require it as often as 9-ball. A strong 9-ball plays patterns as simple as possible so some racks never require a power stroke, but some do, and much more often than snooker. Snooker has the straight pool aspect to it and after the cherries are cleared the game becomes rotation, but MOST of the time the pattern is the EXACT SAME THING every time, and the balls are positioned so that you work in one direction running out rather than going up and down the table. Please explain why you think snooker players use more power shots than 9-ball players.

You obviously know the game pretty well, but I would still contend that if we averaged the speed of the average shot in snooker v 9-ball, snooker would have the higher average speed shot delivery for pot attempts.

I was watching the recent world championships Friday night and paid particular attention to this.

Anyway, it would be interesting if shot speeds were clocked and we had some real data.

Certainly 8-ball and 14.1 have a lot of slower shots.

 

[Fred Agnir]

I've stated several times that it seems a useful system in 80% of situations and I'm sure it has helped a lot of players, but that doesn't warrant it being beyond criticism or deeper analysis.

Deeper analysis is fine. If there were hints at positive analysis, that'd be fine, as well. I don't get that positive vibe.

Fred

 

[Fred Agnir]

Why do you think Allison Fisher and Karen Corr are so good at playing safeties and kicking at balls? .

Along with their great straight strokes, Grady Matthews and Pete Fusco. Ask them yourself.

Karen Corr is the best 2-rail kicker among her peers. Pete Fusco. As I said, ask her yourself. The 2-rail kick is not in the snooker game.

Fred

 

[Fred Agnir]

Note that no American pool player has made the conversion to professional snooker, despite the lucrative gains. Australia and Canada are snooker nations and yet they have only managed a couple of highly competitive players in the last 30 years.

I often wonder about this. You take a look at someone like Fong Pang Chao. Why didn't he go the snooker route? He's mechanical one of the soundest pool players on the planet. He's also one of the best shot makers. My guess is that snooker simply doesn't hold his interest. The game has to be fun before any pursuit happens. It's not all about the money, and the games are just too different for a simple leap to the next country.

The fact you made fifties in your only games indicates you are a good player. Many people play for 40 years and never achieve that. However, you probably went to the table 50 times to achieve this. The top pros make a 50 about 50% of the time they are left open.
.

I am a nobody in this pool world. I have to go a 100 innings before I can pop out a 50 ball run in straight pool as well. I consider both marks about the same.

Fred

 

[JLW]

Along with their great straight strokes, Grady Matthews and Pete Fusco. Ask them yourself.

Karen Corr is the best 2-rail kicker among her peers. Pete Fusco. As I said, ask her yourself. The 2-rail kick is not in the snooker game.

Fred

Fred- I know why Allison and Karen are so good at playing safeties and kick shots. It's the same reason they have such accurate aim. Because of their snooker backgrounds. And yes, the 2 rail kick is played in snooker. I've played snooker for many years. I know how much safety play takes place. It is the nature of the game that you can win many snooker games by safety play alone.

You say you've had some 50's in snooker. My three questions to you would be: 1. How good was the person you were playing? 2. What was your high run for an inning? and 3. How many turns did it take you at the table? I've had many games in the 50's and 60's. But I've seldom run more than 30 or 40 points at a time. If you are as good as you say you are (and I'm not doubting that you are) you should be running 50's.

I'm sure you are a very good player and very knowledgeable about aim and the game of pool, but you seem to me to be trying to give people the impression that snooker is a fairly easy game. It's not. It is a very challenging game that requires very accurate aim, which is why it was brought up on this thread on aim. I think it would be worth anyone's time, if they are really interested in studying the various aiming methods, to study how snooker players aim. Peace.

 

[Skeezicks]

Either you try it or you don't. If you speculate before you shoot it, you've closed your mind. Try it especially on those close cut shots. But I want you to report you findings. I seem to always ask this, and I get the guys reporting that it works, but I never seem to get the guys reporting that it didn't work. I'm sure it won't work for some people, they just don't seem to be getting back to me.

I tried another aiming trick that you presented on CCB. I shot the shot many times. It didn't work for me. I kept posting that it didn't in hopes of further instruction and understanding. You said I was being an asshole.

Incidentally, I figured out what I was doing wrong. It still didn't work, but for other reasons.

As for this system... I did a cursory try, a brief speculation, and I will come back to it later.

 

[Skeezicks]

The observation I have is that people that have not learned the 3-line system which is Hal's base aiming system will have a hard time understanding the Shish-Kebob system...

Here's another one. I did it. It doesn't work for the in between angles without adjustment.

... just reporting back

 

[Skeezicks]

Let's just say for S & G that you're correct, and furthermore assume that it's actually a conscious adjustment rather than a subconscious one. Given the finite point aiming system, and the fact that I (and I ain't the only one, brother) can shoot blind back cuts and other typically difficult pots with this beautiful system under fire, under tournament conditions, under heinously tight pockets, what's the downside?

That it isn't traditional? That it isn't ghost ball? That people might actually start to pocket more balls? That they'll lose their posting priveleges?

Here's the big deal, IMO. If possible adjustment is admitted, the science guys would just shrug and say, "Good for him. He's found a way to help him see the shot and shoot the shot. Let's move on." If adjustment is denied, many newbies (the ones who will then not adjust) will learn a poor way to aim.

 

[Fred Agnir]

Fred- I know why Allison and Karen are so good at playing safeties and kick shots. It's the same reason they have such accurate aim. Because of their snooker backgrounds. And yes, the 2 rail kick is played in snooker. I've played snooker for many years. I know how much safety play takes place. It is the nature of the game that you can win many snooker games by safety play alone.

C'mon. You must confuse me with someone who doesn't know a thing about snooker. Did you ever ask Karen why she's so good at the 2-rail kicks? I did.

You say you've had some 50's in snooker. My three questions to you would be: 1. How good was the person you were playing

Crappy, just like me.

2. What was your high run for an inning?

Before that? I had a few 20's and 30's. But, I've only played snooker couple of times (a couple of days).

and 3. How many turns did it take you at the table?

I don't know what you're asking. I've had two breaks of 50. So, that's one.

I'm sure you are a very good player and very knowledgeable about aim and the game of pool, but you seem to me to be trying to give people the impression that snooker is a fairly easy game..

I can't explain why this is so ironic. I guess the thread is simply difficult to follow. You've got it opposite. I gave my anectode because of the implication by the snooker players that they are such great shotmakers. IMO, the game of snooker is difficult, but not so difficult that any decent cueist wouldn't be decent at snooker given any amount of time with the game. Same holds true for 1-pocket, banks, or 3-cushion. The games are simply different, not harder than each other.

Given enough time, and a change of focus from heinous position play to heinous shotmaking, IMO, any pool playe can achieve the same skill level at any of the other games, including snooker. I gave my example just for anectdotal evidence.

Fred

 

[Fred Agnir]

Here's the big deal, IMO. If possible adjustment is admitted, the science guys would just shrug and say, "Good for him. He's found a way to help him see the shot and shoot the shot. Let's move on." If adjustment is denied, many newbies (the ones who will then not adjust) will learn a poor way to aim.

Puhleeze. Certainly when it comes to the aiming discussions, you don't think this is my first paper route?

If it didn't work for you, and you really gave it a go, then it didn't work for your. Maybe if we were standing at the table, we could work on it together, if you were willing.

Fred <~~~ always willing

 

[JLW]

I can't explain why this is so ironic. I guess the thread is simply difficult to follow. You've got it opposite. I gave my anectode because of the implication by the snooker players that they are such great shotmakers. IMO, the game of snooker is difficult, but not so difficult that any decent cueist wouldn't be decent at snooker given any amount of time with the game. Same holds true for 1-pocket, banks, or 3-cushion. The games are simply different, not harder than each other.

Given enough time, and a change of focus from heinous position play to heinous shotmaking, IMO, any pool playe can achieve the same skill level at any of the other games, including snooker. I gave my example just for anectdotal evidence.
Fred

Honestly Fred, I'm not looking to argue with you. But this thread started out as yet another discussion about aiming techniques. Then someone mentioned that snooker players don't use the techniques that were being discussed. The response to this was that it didn't matter, because snooker's really not that difficult anyway. Regardless of how difficult you might find the game itself to be, surely you must agree that pocketing balls is more difficult on a snooker table than on a pool table? That it takes a greater degree of precision. That was really my main point- that you've got to have a solid stroke and pretty accurate aim to play snooker well. So, on a thread dedicated to aim, shouldn't we give some consideration to how snooker players aim? Like I said, not looking to argue with you, I just wanted to clear up any confusion about my prior post.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Here's another one. I did it. It doesn't work for the in between angles without adjustment.

... just reporting back

Then I would advise that you not use the system.

....just my opinion