What do YOU call it, and why?

Fine, John. Here's my problem with the jump cue. You can teach any monkey to jump in 5 minutes. That is undisputable, from your many teachings and rants about jump cues. The game, when designed and thought up, never contained the vertical element of going over balls. If the jump cue is going to be added to the game, what next? I agree that technology should add to the game - it already has. I'm not saying ban the low deflection shaft. I'm not saying ban the break cue. There are a lot of people out there that have the same opinion as me, but because it differs from your opinion (imagine that, the creator of the Bunjee and the pumper of the Fury J/B is pro jump - wonder if the motives aren't financially driven), so the rest of us are wrong.

I'm imagining that I have to get a new cueball at the hall I play at, due to scuffs in it. I'm imagining the pair of C and D playing trying to do the "less than a chalkwidth" jump shot and having to pick the ball up off the floor and give it back to them. I'm imagining that the cueball leaves the table more often with the phenolic tipped break cues than with leather because of the slight jumping action. I'm imagining the little white burn marks on the cloth on the table after you jump the ball. But hey, you'll come back with all the little white dots on the table from the breaking from the wings, so you'll probably say I want the break shot banned from pool, too.

My opinion is my opinion. I don't call you full of BS or an idiot for expressing your opinion. I tell of the damage I've seen, and you make it out like I'm delusional because you haven't seen any of it in your 200,000+ jump shots. You say I can't kick a lick because I don't seem like the kind of player that would study this, yet I mentioned in another post that I own all of Grady's instructionals. I also own Feeney's, and Reid's, and Fleming's, and a whole bunch of books, too. I skipped right over the parts where they talked about kicking and chose to read the chapters on the "evilness" of the jump cue and why it should be banned.

If you want to talk intelligently, John, stop talking about piling up stacks of cash, or betting that you're better than me, or saying I'm full of BS. I'm not. BTW, I apologize for my comment about the jump cue and case. It should have read "keep shorty in your Chinese-made tooled leather case". We're good, now?
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Fine, John. Here's my problem with the jump cue. You can teach any monkey to jump in 5 minutes. That is undisputable, from your many teachings and rants about jump cues. The game, when designed and thought up, never contained the vertical element of going over balls. If the jump cue is going to be added to the game, what next? I agree that technology should add to the game - it already has. I'm not saying ban the low deflection shaft. I'm not saying ban the break cue. There are a lot of people out there that have the same opinion as me, but because it differs from your opinion (imagine that, the creator of the Bunjee and the pumper of the Fury J/B is pro jump - wonder if the motives aren't financially driven), so the rest of us are wrong.


Where do I start? Yes with the proper technique and equipment you can teach any competent player to jump a ball, of kick a ball, or draw a ball, or follow a ball in five minutes, with a couple more minutes you can teach them to apply side spin. What is your point? That it's too easy? The jump cue is nothing more than a tool Shawn, just like a leather tip is. Just because you have a leather tip on your cue doesn't mean you can play like Massey.

Jeez, this has been gone over as nauseum, I can't even believe that you are bringing it up again.

Oh yes the red herring of me being in the business, that's an old classic. Do your homework and you'll see I supported jump cues long before I sold them. It's the RULES Shawn that created the need for the jump cue - they didn't just appear. Because the rules impose a heavy penalty for NOT hitting a ball then the equipment evolved to allow players to better excercise a shot that they did NOT NEED to master before the change in rules. With two foul push out rules there is NO NEED for a jump cue. And furthermore no one ever started whining about the jump cues UNTIL they got to the point where they worked consistently. I support the jump cue Shawn not because I sell them but because they fill a need under the current 1 foul ball in hand rules.

And I love the other classic - "when the game was designed" - Protecting the history of the game is anohter red herring Shawn. The way any pool game is played is directly affected by it's rules. So the design of the game may not have figured in jump shots but the rules did not disallow them either and like it or not jump shots are a part of the game as it is played today. If if you don't ike it then change the rules so that the penalty for not hitting the object ball is so high. I propose call shot 9-ball where you have to call safeties as well. Make it a ball-hand-foul for playing a safety that was not called and you be halfway to eliminating the need for jump cues.

Your "opinion", absolutely you are entitled to it. Even if it is wrong. Just because people agree with you doesn't mean you are right. Ever heard of the Emporer's New Clothes? I don't hear anyone agreeing with you about this epidemic of damaged cueballs though.


I'm imagining that I have to get a new cueball at the hall I play at, due to scuffs in it. I'm imagining the pair of C and D playing trying to do the "less than a chalkwidth" jump shot and having to pick the ball up off the floor and give it back to them. I'm imagining that the cueball leaves the table more often with the phenolic tipped break cues than with leather because of the slight jumping action. I'm imagining the little white burn marks on the cloth on the table after you jump the ball. But hey, you'll come back with all the little white dots on the table from the breaking from the wings, so you'll probably say I want the break shot banned from pool, too.


The key word in this paragraph is "imagining". I can definitely see what scene you are building in your head but it does not correspond with actual reality. For example, the white marks are not "burn" marks they are spots where the cloth is compressed and the light reflects brighter in that spot. They brush out with a damp cloth and brush. And not all cueballs leave such a spot. Different cueballs react differently.


My opinion is my opinion. I don't call you full of BS or an idiot for expressing your opinion. I tell of the damage I've seen, and you make it out like I'm delusional because you haven't seen any of it in your 200,000+ jump shots.

Sorry but while your opinion is definitely yours it doesn't give you a pass to state as fact that which is not. I am tired of radicals like you who try and spread fallacies to make to your point. So if I was abrasive or insulting to you then suck it up because you shouldn't be spreding falsehoods to bolster your opinion. Just say you don't like jump cues, many people can say that loud and proud and don't hve to have a reason.

You say I can't kick a lick because I don't seem like the kind of player that would study this, yet I mentioned in another post that I own all of Grady's instructionals. I also own Feeney's, and Reid's, and Fleming's, and a whole bunch of books, too. I skipped right over the parts where they talked about kicking and chose to read the chapters on the "evilness" of the jump cue and why it should be banned.

Great for you! So are you saying that your opinion is taken from some author's text? What is "evil" about jumping Shawn? That it's too easy because today's cues are engineered correctly to facilitate it? I wonder how the folks felt who mastered shots without leather tips and chalk only to wake up and find every "monkey" able to do more than them with a chalked leather tip? Get with it man - the jump cue is an inert object that fills a need and confers nothing to the player holding it other than a real opportunity to make the shot. The actual execution is still the player's.


If you want to talk intelligently, John, stop talking about piling up stacks of cash, or betting that you're better than me, or saying I'm full of BS. I'm not. BTW, I apologize for my comment about the jump cue and case. It should have read "keep shorty in your Chinese-made tooled leather case". We're good, now?

No, we aren't good now. I speak intelligently all the time and all I get in return from people like you are sterotypical rascist remarks in return. So at this point I am a little perturbed each time someone goes on a rant with zero facts but invents some because they feel they have to justify their opinion.
 
John Barton said:
Really? What levels are those? I'd like to know. Cuz it went way over my head.

I will post pics as I get stuff done. But since I seem to have landed on your bad side somehow you don't have to worry about getting any of my toy cues or cases. Don't bother asking me to make a case for you. There are plenty of other casemakers who want your business. I am not one of them.

I don't deal with knock artists and locksmiths. So if you think Shawn was "knocking" me then I guess you are still pretty much a forum newbie cuz we have been down that road plenty and he always gets the short end.

But weren't you the one reccomending that folks belly up and get some Taiwan gimmick stick X-Breaker rip offs when we didn't know what was up with Richard? Not the kind of guy I like to hang with. Shawn's more your speed I guess.


ok ok ok ....

1.you all ways fight with folks on here about china produced cues.....
his comment hit you there
2. you always fight with folks on here about Jump Cues
his comment hit you there
3. you were showing off a 1200 case... produced in ............CHINA...
He told you to stuff your little toy cues in your fancy case and leave them there....

I thought it was funny......


point 2
How many times could you have been down that road with this dude... he has been on the forum for 2 weeks with 56 post.....

That one went over my head

Point 3

I said people would be better of buying one of those cues and actually getting a cue instead of tossing money at a black hole.....

and I later took all of that back after Rob confessed he was getting jobbed by his distributor.


JB ...... take a deep breath
 
smokeandapancak said:
ok ok ok ....

1.you all ways fight with folks on here about china produced cues.....
his comment hit you there
2. you always fight with folks on here about Jump Cues
his comment hit you there
3. you were showing off a 1200 case... produced in ............CHINA...
He told you to stuff your little toy cues in your fancy case and leave them there....

I thought it was funny......


point 2
How many times could you have been down that road with this dude... he has been on the forum for 2 weeks with 56 post.....

That one went over my head

Point 3

I said people would be better of buying one of those cues and actually getting a cue instead of tossing money at a black hole.....

and I later took all of that back after Rob confessed he was getting jobbed by his distributor.


JB ...... take a deep breath
I have to make a point here. The X-breakers were made (may still be made) by a company called TaiCan. This company is in China, from what I understand. They were directed on how to build cues by Bill Stroud. JB calls the cue from Taiwan an X-breaker knock-off or gimmick stick, yet the Bunjee Blasters are made in the same countries and it's pure quality? And you're calling me racist? Don't light a match, John. Something might catch fire...............
 
deep breath - okay here is what I think................nah I won't sy anyhting you all haven't heard me say a thousand times before - even I am tired of writing it.

Although I guess I have to ask why break cues and jump cues have to be named? I guess Fury is one of th only ones that doesn't have a "name".

Seriously, isn't a little funny?

Bunjee
Kangaroo
Stinger
Lighting Bolt
Blaster
Sledgehammer
X-Breaker
Frog
Jumpin' James
Jumping Jack
Flying Eagle
Air Jumper
Predator Air (nice ripoff of the name "Air")
Happy Hopper
Thumper Jumper

Any others? I am sure I am forgetting some funny ones.
 
The Predator Air is also a great ripoff of another design. Ned Morris made the Stealth Airtime 3pc jump cue years ago. Of all the jump cues available, this is the one I would buy (if I was going to carry one). It has a leather tip :).
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
I have to make a point here. The X-breakers were made (may still be made) by a company called TaiCan. This company is in China, from what I understand. They were directed on how to build cues by Bill Stroud. JB calls the cue from Taiwan an X-breaker knock-off or gimmick stick, yet the Bunjee Blasters are made in the same countries and it's pure quality? And you're calling me racist? Don't light a match, John. Something might catch fire...............

You're not following along Shawn. If you want to do the multi thread - multi topic converation then it pys to go to the topic referenced.

Calling the X a gimmick stick was sarcasm. You won't find me denigrating a product based on where it's made. You will find me basing my reviews on HOW something is made.

Yeah, when you make sterotypical comments about a product's land of origin in order to hurl an insult then it's racist and derogatory. I hope I don't need to explain that any further.
 
John Barton said:
You're not following along Shawn. If you want to do the multi thread - multi topic converation then it pys to go to the topic referenced.

Calling the X a gimmick stick was sarcasm. You won't find me denigrating a product based on where it's made. You will find me basing my reviews on HOW something is made.

Yeah, when you make sterotypical comments about a product's land of origin in order to hurl an insult then it's racist and derogatory. I hope I don't need to explain that any further.
When did I say anything about quality? I said "keep shorty in your Chinese-made tooled leather case". Please find the world that said anything about its quality.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
When did I say anything about quality? I said "keep shorty in your Chinese-made tooled leather case". Please find the world that said anything about its quality.
And, while I'm at this one, I need to ask a question. Seeing as you actually make NOTHING on your cue cases (guessing it's built entirely offshore), do you call yourself a case maker?

Any chance you could give me Ching Shun Case's email or number so I could pick up your $1200 case for $350 American?
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
The Predator Air is also a great ripoff of another design. Ned Morris made the Stealth Airtime 3pc jump cue years ago. Of all the jump cues available, this is the one I would buy (if I was going to carry one). It has a leather tip :).

Yes but it's treated leather that is nearly as hard as phenolic. I did the same thing on a few Bunjee Jumpers back in the day.

I have funny Ned Morris story. One year I was having a free contest designed to show off the Bunjee by allowing people to do five shots and get a discount ticket for each shot they made. The first one was a hanger in the corner.

Ned had been over during a quiet time and had brought some players who wanted to compare the Bunjee to the Airtime. He was talkig about the tip and that his was better because you could draw the ball and with the Bunjee you couldn't and so on. So they went away and bought an Airtime.

So the next day Ned was hanging out by the Bunjee table when I doing the contest and he asked if he could use the Airtime in the contest. I said no it's for the Bunjee Jumper so he picked up the Bunjee and shot the cross corner table length jump shot to make the hanger AND DREW THE CUE BALL BACK THE WHOLE TABLE LENGTH! I said, "what were you saying about not being able to draw a ball with a Bunjee???"

And we have been friends ever since! Real cool guy who builds some FINE cues. And you don't want to bet against his daughter on a jump shot either. She does the 1mm jump shot with an air bridge - with a Bunjee and an Airtime.
 
John Barton said:
You're not following along Shawn. If you want to do the multi thread - multi topic converation then it pys to go to the topic referenced.

Calling the X a gimmick stick was sarcasm. You won't find me denigrating a product based on where it's made. You will find me basing my reviews on HOW something is made.

Yeah, when you make sterotypical comments about a product's land of origin in order to hurl an insult then it's racist and derogatory. I hope I don't need to explain that any further.



There is a bit of difference between being racist and anything that this guy said....


Besides... so what if a person thinks that mass produced China cues are below par..... that is/was a reputation that was earned over the course of a very LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time.... Believe or not JB, China has produced alotta POOOO and they made said pooo a long time before you showed up......

dont get it twisted... I would drop money on a falcon or the likes in sec.. but more than a few wont.
 
Last edited:
Shawn Armstrong said:
[...] If the jump cue is going to be added to the game, what next? I agree that technology should add to the game - it already has.[...]

Well, it never really got traction, or was just scoffed at, and made "automatically illegal to use" by any
rational player, but there was an invention called the automatic cue.

It had a spring loaded plunger, that could be locked in to about 8 different depths, sort of like in the old
game of "pivot pool". You pressed a button on the cue, to make the shot. It took the need to develop
a straight and consistent stroke out of the equation.

Or maybe somehow "laser cues" will become legal. I'm one of those folks who also wishes jump cues
would become a thing of the past.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
And, while I'm at this one, I need to ask a question. Seeing as you actually make NOTHING on your cue cases (guessing it's built entirely offshore), do you call yourself a case maker?

Any chance you could give me Ching Shun Case's email or number so I could pick up your $1200 case for $350 American?

You're funny. I live here asshole and build the cases right alongside my employees. Two steps from this computer is my workshop where I cut the patterns and design the cases.

Man you really want to get in the shit don't you? You're a real racist pig.

You are more than welcome to come here and try and get the same cases for whatever you can. I bet you don't even get close to the quality I put out AND you will spend far more trying because you are a clueless Laowei.

Once again your reading comprehension proves to be inadequate for the task of debate.
 
John,

So, how much do you pay your workers to build these cues, round-eye? Tell me the number of man hours in that case, plus the cost of materials, and the hourly rate you pay your case makers. Then we'll see who's ignorant. So, do you work the sewing machine with your people? Or do you just dream up the cases and have someone else with the actual skills build them? I could do the exact same thing with a pencil, some imagination, and one phone call to Jack Justis.
 
smokeandapancak said:
There is a bit of difference between being racist and anything that this guy said....


Besides... so what if a person thinks that mass produced China cues are below par..... that is/was a reputation that was earned over the course of a very LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time.... Believe or not JB, China has produced alotta POOOO and they made said pooo a long time before you showed up......

dont get it twisted... I would drop money on a falcon or the likes in sec.. but more than a few wont.

I know that. I am the FIRST guy who admits that China has a reputation to live down. The point is though that people like Shawn KNOW that the cues and products in the cue biz are pretty good but they want to USE the OLD stereotype to hurl insults when they can.

If a person thinks that a product is below par then I say define par. Once we have a true benchmark we can all agree on then we can start to truly say what is "good" and what is not.

If Shawn's comment about "chinese made" "taiwanese made" was not meant to slur me by playing on the reputation for poor quality then it's just plain ignorant. Do you think it's cool to perpetrate a stereotype when you know better? He is just grasping at straws to try and discredit me - the same thing that others try to do by playing the race card and wrapping themselves in the flag.
 
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