What Do You Hate To See In A Cue?

[BillYards]

Have to agree with that! Lack of symmetry bothers me too....

Does Jerry have a web-site? Oh, I found it. Wow!! His work is original and looks flawless... what are the prices and how do they play? Anyone? I am in love some of the designs.

 

[JimBo]

I've heard you say over, and over, and over again how Skip changed his style to "traditional" after MK's influence. Please post some pictures of Skip's original style and a definition of "traditional". The only changes that I saw him make were making 6 poing hi/lo cues and switching to sharp inlays. Thanks in advance for your reply.

Zack

Joe is right if you want pics ask him, although he'd never post any to support what I say. He is so blinded by some hate towards me that he can't think rationally, I guess it's cause I expose him as a fraud when he's trying to play pretend on the internet. Believe it or not Joe is a nice guy when he's not so worried about how everyone perceives him.

Skip used to do lots of the 6 point (hi lo) style with very nice wood combos and strong natural veneers MK's site used to have many for sale, joe has those pics but doesn't care to share. I for one don't have the time to search the web for them, sorry I have more going on and don't have that time.

When I say traditional I mean 4 point ebony cues with 60's style inlays and patterns, Bushka rings, diamonds, boxes, you know what I mean (I hope). As far as why he switched to sharp inlays, I can't say, but it was a good move IMO. I'm sure Joe will try to take credit since he wants credit for everything Skip has ever done.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

Don't let facts get in the way, Jim.

Don't worry.. I am looking forward to your redefining traditional cues...

Joe

Joe I'm not into your petty squabble, if you want to debate things and leave out your personal agenda maybe we can do it, I happen to like the Joe Van I know, not the internet know it all owner of classiccues.com (LOL) guy that you want to come across as.

I don't need to redefine anything, traditional style is very clear, I would think a guy who wants us all to believe he owns a classic cue web site loaded with many bushkas and Botis that he must own would know. Sorry you are so blinded by loyalty to a slimy crook that you can't think straight any more. Go away with your hate filled agenda joe :-D

Jim

 

[skins]

Stealing Designs

> Personally,if I had Tim's CNC gifts and "vision",and someone tried to copy my designs,more power to them,chances are it won't be executed as well as Josey does it. Because I haven't done it yet,it still blows my mind that someone can actually pick some of those inlay pieces up to deburr them without them breaking. Tommy D.

i'm sorry to re-hash but i obviosly missed somehting in this post that can't be glossed over. NO POWER TO THEM!! their theives. much time is spent trying to come up with designs and incorporate them in a 1 inch piece of wood the likes that some people will never experience because they steal the lifes work and living from another cuemaker to satisfy their lazyness and incompetence! falcon cues stole a design i did for cognoscenti cues and i had to threaten them with a law suit to get them to stop. if other cue makers want to "get inspired" by another cue makers work and create their own designs thats fine but using the same design, pieces of other designs or similar variations and putting them together to sell cues is nothing more than theivery. a good freind told me one time "if you like *your*(josey cues) design then you should buy a Josey cue". i couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[JimBo]

Jim, LOL. I'm sitting here laughing my a$$ off as I read your post on this thread....one more in the littany that were hijacked into one of your "cue design theft" rants.

Glad I could bring you some Joy.

Let's just look at your statement. I mean really......Skip was "forced into" making traditional style cues. How about getting a clue before shooting off at the mouth.

Forced was probably a bad choice of words, maybe I should do like you and go back and edit it. It's funny how in the next paragraph you mention Skip having his own style yet Joe in a previous post vehemently denies it. LOL you guys need to get your stories together.

It's no secret that Joe, Mark, Dennis B., myself, and some others over the years have ordered and bought a bunch of cues from him. I can personally attest that not all of them were "traditional style". Some were Skip's own designs.

What was that? he had his own designs?? Hmmmm

Plain and simple, there's more of a market for traditional style cues with sharp cut inlay work, not oval or rounded diamond inlays or unusual wood combinations. I've sold many of them, so I know. This is true not only for Skip Weston, but any custom cuemaker whose stuff starts in the $800-$1000 range.

There is no bigger market then the SW market, they have an 8 year wait list and produce more cues then anyone else who has anywhere near that wait. They also have a much better resale market then any other cues, straight up facts based on numbers. Are they traditional? Will they make traditional cues?? Do they have to??? Don't bother answering we already know the facts.

Furthermore, it's great that Skip's business has taken off and begun to flourish.

I agree

Hear he has a lot of orders.

I might not agree with this so much.

I would like to think that in some small way, the exposure of having some of his cues listed on our site has helped to "get his work out there and on the map." Am I happy for Skip....absolutely.

I'm happy for him too, I'm happy that maybe he can make money now instead of being held up by crooks like you guys who want to get cues at discounted prices to "help him" LOL. You cue brokers crack me up, your such nice guys, button your shirt your heart is falling out.

Just out of curiousity.....since you profess to like Skip and his cues so much, just what have you done to help him and his business ??? Have you laid out your cash and taken a chance with his cues...the countless phone calls, emails, working with customers on specific orders, trade-shows, etc. ??? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Again what makes you think you did so much to help him? You got paid for every cue of his you sold. Why would you be involved otherwise? If someone wants a cue from him why not tell them to call him, then he can deal with the orders and the phone calls, O that's right if you did it that way you wouldn't make any money off him LOL what a nice guy you must be. Talk about making someone laugh. I'm not in the cue sales business so I haven't tried to get any discounts from him.

For some reason, what always seems to show in your posts is your perpetual hard-on for Mark and Joe. Man, it's so bad that you ought to be the poster boy for Viagra.

LOL another funny point, what seems to always shine through is your support of them, maybe you're the one with the love affair. I happen to have a problem with Mark and how he's a lying piece of crap, Joe on the other hand has no role in this because (I know he hates this) he isn't a part of Mark's lies and shady deals, he's just so loyal and wants to be associated with Mark so bad that he's willing to try and take on his troubles. To him it's worth the drama to have everyone think he and mark are partners, it's funny how some people just want to be thought of as important.

"Forced into it by MK".....WHAT A DAMN JOKE.

Thanks for the good laugh.

Sean

Back at ya Sean, I will now give you equal credit with Joe as to why Skip is taking more cue orders, you guys really are rain makers LOL. His quality work had nothing to do with it. BTW thanks for once again coming to Joe’s aid, I was wondering how long it would take you to come rescue him.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

QUOTE=coastydad]No, I don't think I missed your point at all. Jimbo, here's the proverbial "bottom line"!
the customer wants.
5. I really don't give a flying F##k what you think.

Seems like you spent an awful lot of time replying to someone you don't care about LOL


12. I've been in wars on three different continents, during three different generations, been blued, screwed and tattooed on all of them, refuse to take shit from some friggin bartender.
![/QUOTE]

I'm not giving you shit, just sharing my opinion, that's something you fought for on 3 continents for. You did it for me and I'd like to personally thank you for. Also I'd like to say that although I disagree with many of the things you said I am glad you shared them with us. I'm glad you care enough about me to put so much time into your post. Carry on. ;-)

Jim

 

[cueaddicts]

[/COLOR]


i'm sorry to re-hash but i obviosly missed somehting in this post that can't be glossed over. NO POWER TO THEM!! their theives. much time is spent trying to come up with designs and incorporate them in a 1 inch piece of wood the likes that some people will never experience because they steal the lifes work and living from another cuemaker to satisfy their lazyness and incompetence! falcon cues stole a design i did for cognoscenti cues and i had to threaten them with a law suit to get them to stop. if other cue makers want to "get inspired" by another cue makers work and create their own designs thats fine but using the same design, pieces of other designs or similar variations and putting them together to sell cues is nothing more than theivery. a good freind told me one time "if you like *your*(josey cues) design then you should buy a Josey cue". i couldn't have said it better myself.

I mostly agree with your points here, especially if you are talking about some cuemaker or cue distributor making a direct copy, let's say of Cog's 'shard' point or the Gina feathers pattern. Yes, absolutely that's cue design theft and wrong.

Stealing is lazy, true, but just as many people (if not more) will say that that kind of CNC (plug and play) inlay work is "lazy." All the initial work design work, trial and error, developing the templates, etc. is commendable; however, but when a cuemaker turns around and runs off 30 or 50 or 200 of them and they all look the same, then at some point the design has got to get less appealing for the masses.

I think the design theft rant is much more cloudy and subjective when you start talking about classic, clean, simplistic inlays that consumers like (sharp cut diamonds, dots, blocks/windows, whatever you want to call them). When using a limited number of these inlays, there is obviously limited arrangements mathematically. True, the number of arrangements is pretty high, but when you look at centering under a point, in the center of the butt sleeve, and how a design/patetrn will balance out asthetically, the number of combinations is further reduced. So, is everything now a copy of something that's been done in the past ??? I don't think it's that cut and dry and that's a stretch with the assumption.

Sean

 

[cueaddicts]

Back at ya Sean, I will now give you equal credit with Joe as to why Skip is taking more cue orders, you guys really are rain makers LOL. His quality work had nothing to do with it. BTW thanks for once again coming to Joe’s aid, I was wondering how long it would take you to come rescue him.

Jim

Jim,

You didn't answer the question about what you've done to help Skip since you like him and his work so much. What....oh, that's right.....NOTHING.

Get a life and start commenting publically on things you actually know something about. You're being the typical Sunday afternoon quarterback....always criticizing the play calling without having ever got in there.

Sean

 

[JimBo]

[

Are you sure TW or RB or BS can build me the same cue Skip built me? If I call them up and say, "listen, I want a traditional 4 pointer with the old geometry and hardwood veneers (not sycamore and not recuts!)" they will simply quote me a price?

I would say that TW can do ANYTHING he sets his mind to, but I am also sure that for a price anywhere near what Skip charges I'd say he wouldn't. RB is already set in his ways and wouldn't change for you or me or anyone. BS ? Not sure if you mean Barry or Bill's. But your point here is actually making my point. I love Skip's point work, it's what he does, same way Paul does the butterflies, to me it's wrong to ask Skip to make a Fanelli style cue as it is to ask Paul to do things Skip's way. I know I've become a villain of sorts in this thread and don't really mind it, but you are helping to make my point. If you like what Skip does then support Skip, if you like what someone else does support them, don't take what he does and go to someone else and ask them to do it.

I'm actually curious. To me it's not about the design per se as it is the construction methods that set Skip apart from all the rest. I've yet to see points as perfectly executed, neither in recuts or traditional soft veneered cues. And the fact that the entire cue is made from hardwoods is a selling point for me as well.

I agree and again I'll say support what you like, don't try and change what a person does to get something you like. Don't ask SW to make a 4 point cue, dont ask Cognoscenti to make a steel pin cue. To say that what Skip does is only a construction method is selling him short IMO.

I have no interest in buying any cues from Barry Szamboti, eventhough his (dad's) designs are very appealing to me...simply because his execution is subpar compared to Skip's. From point work to inlays, BS falls short. In my book, BS does not deserve to sell cues at his prices when there are better craftsmen around. I feel the same way about Richard Black.

Prices are determined by supply and demand and nothing more, it's sad but quality has little to do with prices in most cases, I would also say that I along with others would disagree with your assessment of Barry's work.

Your assumption that Skip's customers are a bunch of cheapskates who can't afford the read deal is way off mark. I would go to Skip if his prices are on par with Szamboti. Luckily they're not, but that doesn't mean it's the driving force of my purchasing decision.

-Roger

I don't believe that's what I said, I happen to own a cue from Skip and don't consider myself cheap. I did say when people take designs from other makers and have different cuemakers do them it's often because of price or wait time or availability.

Jim

 

[skins]

, let's say of Cog's 'shard' point.

Stealing is lazy, true, but just as many people (if not more) will say that that kind of CNC (plug and play) inlay work is "lazy."

Sean

first off it's not Cog's `shard` it's my (tim lilek/ josey's) `shard`. the fact that "many people" would say that using a cnc is lazy just means the "many people" that say that are ignorant and don't know diddly about making cues. try to create and execute one of my designs without it. won't be done. listen i've been sucked into this black hole of ignorance for a long time now and untill i hear from the "many peolpe" who know what it takes to do this type of work and actually do it and still say it's lazy (which will never happen) my feet are planted firm!

 

[JimBo]

jeff,
I don't feel every debate is an arguement..

Joe

I agree unless it has my name attached and then Joe loses all logic and focus.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

I love this line. I think I want to add it to my signature.

Fred

It would be better then Reggie Miller trying.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

Oh! That's funny! Can't wait to see how this little drama unfolds.

There are very few of us who have the balls to voice negative opinions here, you've done it as well as me, but sadly we are in the minority.

Jim

 

[AuntyDan]

Have to agree with that! Lack of symmetry bothers me too....

Does Jerry have a web-site? Oh, I found it. Wow!! His work is original and looks flawless... what are the prices and how do they play? Anyone? I am in love some of the designs.

If you have to ask you probably can't afford them. I believe you are looking at dropping a minimum of $3,000 for moderately fancy ones. I've seen a few of his plainer cues for under $2,000 on Ebay but you don't see them often. Of course that's on the US market; in Japan I hear he's selling everything he wants at even higher prices, but then the whole cue market in Japan is inflated compared to the USA.

If you do happen to that kind of change rattling around looking for a home you may want to check out this Ebay auction, no bids yet at 4k so they might take an offer.

 

[JimBo]

[/COLOR]


i'm sorry to re-hash but i obviosly missed somehting in this post that can't be glossed over. NO POWER TO THEM!! their theives. much time is spent trying to come up with designs and incorporate them in a 1 inch piece of wood the likes that some people will never experience because they steal the lifes work and living from another cuemaker to satisfy their lazyness and incompetence! falcon cues stole a design i did for cognoscenti cues and i had to threaten them with a law suit to get them to stop. if other cue makers want to "get inspired" by another cue makers work and create their own designs thats fine but using the same design, pieces of other designs or similar variations and putting them together to sell cues is nothing more than theivery. a good freind told me one time "if you like *your*(josey cues) design then you should buy a Josey cue". i couldn't have said it better myself.

I know I've said it before, but I would like to thank you for giving us feedback from someone who's opinion matters. I have given my opinion many times as well as some people who thought stealing designs was fine, but as I've said our opinions don't hold the same weight as someone who is actually being ripped off. Thanks for your first hand insight. Also may I ask if it had come to a law suite how do you feel you could have shown a cash number and what would you sue for. It has always been my understanding that most people who have been ripped off know they can win in a court case but they didn't feel they could recoup enough to make it worth while. Your case may have been different because it was a production company and you may be able to show how many cues they sold with your design, but could you charge them an hourly rate as to how long that design took you, or would it be a percentage as to sales of that cue? Did you speak to a lawyer?

Jim

 

[icon]

Have to agree with that! Lack of symmetry bothers me too....

Does Jerry have a web-site? Oh, I found it. Wow!! His work is original and looks flawless... what are the prices and how do they play? Anyone? I am in love some of the designs.

if you really are interested i have more than a dozen to choose from.

 

[coastydad]

QUOTE=coastydad]No, I don't think I missed your point at all. Jimbo, here's the proverbial "bottom line"!
the customer wants.
5. I really don't give a flying F##k what you think.

Seems like you spent an awful lot of time replying to someone you don't care about LOL


12. I've been in wars on three different continents, during three different generations, been blued, screwed and tattooed on all of them, refuse to take shit from some friggin bartender.
!

I'm not giving you shit, just sharing my opinion, that's something you fought for on 3 continents for. You did it for me and I'd like to personally thank you for. Also I'd like to say that although I disagree with many of the things you said I am glad you shared them with us. I'm glad you care enough about me to put so much time into your post. Carry on. ;-)

Jim [/QUOTE]

You're Welcome!

 

[classiccues]

Joe is right if you want pics ask him, although he'd never post any to support what I say. He is so blinded by some hate towards me that he can't think rationally, I guess it's cause I expose him as a fraud when he's trying to play pretend on the internet. Believe it or not Joe is a nice guy when he's not so worried about how everyone perceives him.

First, there are no picks to support what you say. Well get into that in a minute. Second, you cannot expose something that is not there. Countless times I asked you for proof and like usual, thats when you either change, or drop the subject.

Skip used to do lots of the 6 point (hi lo) style with very nice wood combos and strong natural veneers MK's site used to have many for sale, joe has those pics but doesn't care to share. I for one don't have the time to search the web for them, sorry I have more going on and don't have that time.

Actually I would share them if I had them. Skip made one six pointer before I, yes I, convinced him he should make 6 point cues in a more refined design. If you mean the 8 point cues, I posted on earlier. But don't worry.. maybe I will do a Skip tribute page so you can get your facts in order. So like I alluded to above, I cannot post picks to support your claim, since it is false. (like thats a suprise) I have to ask, why was it a good move since the work was good to begin with?

When I say traditional I mean 4 point ebony cues with 60's style inlays and patterns, Bushka rings, diamonds, boxes, you know what I mean (I hope). As far as why he switched to sharp inlays, I can't say, but it was a good move IMO. I'm sure Joe will try to take credit since he wants credit for everything Skip has ever done.

Jim

Yes I will. Since the first one he built was for me, and I was the one who continually ordered them. Thanks for the lead in.

Joe

 

[classiccues]

Joe I'm not into your petty squabble, if you want to debate things and leave out your personal agenda maybe we can do it, I happen to like the Joe Van I know, not the internet know it all owner of classiccues.com (LOL) guy that you want to come across as.

I don't need to redefine anything, traditional style is very clear, I would think a guy who wants us all to believe he owns a classic cue web site loaded with many bushkas and Botis that he must own would know. Sorry you are so blinded by loyalty to a slimy crook that you can't think straight any more. Go away with your hate filled agenda joe :-D

Jim

This is the post I expect when I call you out on facts.. again this is you and I. Come clean and admit you don't know as much as you think, especially about Skip, and I will stop coming after you. It seems like everytime a cuemakers gets hot, you want to sound like the National Enquirer and make everyone think you are in the know.. just stop lying and stick to what you do know. One other thing as expected, you get caught lying and then need to take a swing at Mark..

Joe

 

[JimBo]

I mostly agree with your points here, especially if you are talking about some cuemaker or cue distributor making a direct copy, let's say of Cog's 'shard' point or the Gina feathers pattern. Yes, absolutely that's cue design theft and wrong.

Lots of gray area, we can agree. But I think the more complex the easier it becomes to see.

Stealing is lazy, true, but just as many people (if not more) will say that that kind of CNC (plug and play) inlay work is "lazy." All the initial work design work, trial and error, developing the templates, etc. is commendable; however, but when a cuemaker turns around and runs off 30 or 50 or 200 of them and they all look the same, then at some point the design has got to get less appealing for the masses.

Does it matter? I mean if a cuemaker wants to continue to pump out the same design who cares?? As long as it's his design, the masses as you put it will decide when it becomes too much when they stop buying them.

I think the design theft rant is much more cloudy and subjective when you start talking about classic, clean, simplistic inlays that consumers like (sharp cut diamonds, dots, blocks/windows, whatever you want to call them). When using a limited number of these inlays, there is obviously limited arrangements mathematically. True, the number of arrangements is pretty high, but when you look at centering under a point, in the center of the butt sleeve, and how a design/patetrn will balance out asthetically, the number of combinations is further reduced. So, is everything now a copy of something that's been done in the past ??? I don't think it's that cut and dry and that's a stretch with the assumption.

Sean

Again Gray area and it has never been me saying where to draw the line, no matter how much some have tried to force me into it. The original time I got on this was because of a cue that was represented as a direct copy of a certain cue (last bushka) I have never said a word about basic cue designs like 4 point 4 diamonds and stuff like that. Those were from a time when inlays were all bought from the same company and as you've said mathematically there were only so many arrangements to use. many people did these designs, as to who can claim ownership? well again it's not up to me to say.

Jim