A
a_susie_cue
Guest
What do you think is the best league out there?
APA
BCA
ACS
TAP
VNEA
OTHER
APA
BCA
ACS
TAP
VNEA
OTHER
A
a_susie_cue
Guest
Best as far as overall rules, competitive nature, money payouts, and how fun it is. You can think of the question as which would would you pick as number 1 to play in if you had to chose only one.
This isn't hard ....
to decide, all you have to do is look at their scoring systems. I think the BCA advanced league is the best league.
BCA uses 75 point scoring system for 5 man, 60 for 4 man.
VNEA did use a 10 point scoring system per game, 13 handicap system.
APA did use a 7 point, 9 for 9 ball.
The more definitive it is, the less sandbagging goes on, and the truer the handicap system is. This is one of the reasons, the APA is considered a joke league by most advanced players, it uses the least ranking system in determining handicaps.
In playing in the BCA, when you play a 45, he is a 45. In the APA, almost
11 levels of BCA averages could fit into 1 APA level..... duh??? That's equivalent to saying, 'Ok, guys, the 7th graders through college are all going to play basketball together and be considered equal (11 grades)'....... what's wrong with that picture??? ... LOL Never thought of it that way, did you?
to decide, all you have to do is look at their scoring systems. I think the BCA advanced league is the best league.
BCA uses 75 point scoring system for 5 man, 60 for 4 man.
VNEA did use a 10 point scoring system per game, 13 handicap system.
APA did use a 7 point, 9 for 9 ball.
The more definitive it is, the less sandbagging goes on, and the truer the handicap system is. This is one of the reasons, the APA is considered a joke league by most advanced players, it uses the least ranking system in determining handicaps.
In playing in the BCA, when you play a 45, he is a 45. In the APA, almost
11 levels of BCA averages could fit into 1 APA level..... duh??? That's equivalent to saying, 'Ok, guys, the 7th graders through college are all going to play basketball together and be considered equal (11 grades)'....... what's wrong with that picture??? ... LOL Never thought of it that way, did you?
The best league system....
I think that the best league is going to depend on each person and what their motivations are. There is no one league system that is better than another. It would be nice to have one national league and organization, I think that it would improve the chances of our sport receiving the recognition it deserves, but I think that something like that is a pipe dream at this point in the game.
Personally, BCA is a great league because I am looking for strong competition, not a high dollar return. My overriding goal is to develop my game and I want to play against the best players in the area and in the US/World when I go to BCA Nationals each year.
I also play in an ACS league where the end of season payouts are better than my BCA league. It is a fun league, but the level of competition is not comparable to my local BCA league, so that takes some of my personal enjoyment away.
I have never had any motivation to play APA, but I think that there are players out there who enjoy it and learn from playing in that environment. I think on the national level that APA has great payouts, but from what I have seen, the equalizer system makes it a crapshoot as to who will win. I definitely like to have a league system where your best players are going to recognized for the time and hard work they devote to the game.
I think that the best league is going to depend on each person and what their motivations are. There is no one league system that is better than another. It would be nice to have one national league and organization, I think that it would improve the chances of our sport receiving the recognition it deserves, but I think that something like that is a pipe dream at this point in the game.
Personally, BCA is a great league because I am looking for strong competition, not a high dollar return. My overriding goal is to develop my game and I want to play against the best players in the area and in the US/World when I go to BCA Nationals each year.
I also play in an ACS league where the end of season payouts are better than my BCA league. It is a fun league, but the level of competition is not comparable to my local BCA league, so that takes some of my personal enjoyment away.
I have never had any motivation to play APA, but I think that there are players out there who enjoy it and learn from playing in that environment. I think on the national level that APA has great payouts, but from what I have seen, the equalizer system makes it a crapshoot as to who will win. I definitely like to have a league system where your best players are going to recognized for the time and hard work they devote to the game.
OK, let's talk BCA.
I've played in a couple of BCA and BCA like leagues and none of them utilized any rating system anywhere near what you are proclaiming...
Please elaborate on how the BCA rating system that you're referring to works. Are you just referring to 1 point for each ball, thus 15 points total? Every ball you make is a point for you, 8 total if you make the 8 ball, plus the points for the opponents balls left on table? Thus each player playing everyone on the opposing team 1 game only would be the 60 or 75 points that you're referring to.
Based on what you're describing, if a 55 plays against a 10, what are the realistic chances that the 10 will have to win?
Note: Not referring to theoretical chances (i.e. everyone has a 50% chance).
Plus, if your opponent gets the break (usually through a random factor of chance, rather than lag) and breaks and runs out, then you will automatically be docked 15 points from your total possible rating, through no lack of skill of your own.
If this is the rating system that you're touting / referring to, then that isn't a handicap / rating system at all, instead it's a form of statistical accounting. Not saying that anything is wrong with that. It has its benefits under the right context...
For example, in bowling if you average 200, and your opponent averages 100, then the rating system would take the difference of skill (100 pins in this case) and mutiply by an equalizing factor (i.e. 90% would equal 90 pins in this case).
Because, if these two players played a heads up, even game, then they'd both have a theoretical 50% chance of winning, yet the stronger player would win over 99% of the time. Not much point in even playing the game, when the outcome is that pre-determined. In this case the skill difference would only be used for statistical purposes.
But instead, bowling leagues usually utilize the handicap system, whereby the lower player would be granted 90 pins bonus, before they even start. Thus
Strong Bowler __ Weaker Bowler _ Outcome
above average vs below average = stronger bowler wins guaranteed
below average vs above average = other bowler likely wins
below average vs below average = either bowler could win
above average vs above average = stronger bowler still likely wins, with rare exceptions
Makes the match more challenging, encouraging the weaker player to continue playing and allowing the player to be competitive while improving.
Snapshot9 said:
I've played in a couple of BCA and BCA like leagues and none of them utilized any rating system anywhere near what you are proclaiming...
Please elaborate on how the BCA rating system that you're referring to works. Are you just referring to 1 point for each ball, thus 15 points total? Every ball you make is a point for you, 8 total if you make the 8 ball, plus the points for the opponents balls left on table? Thus each player playing everyone on the opposing team 1 game only would be the 60 or 75 points that you're referring to.
Based on what you're describing, if a 55 plays against a 10, what are the realistic chances that the 10 will have to win?
Note: Not referring to theoretical chances (i.e. everyone has a 50% chance).
Plus, if your opponent gets the break (usually through a random factor of chance, rather than lag) and breaks and runs out, then you will automatically be docked 15 points from your total possible rating, through no lack of skill of your own.
If this is the rating system that you're touting / referring to, then that isn't a handicap / rating system at all, instead it's a form of statistical accounting. Not saying that anything is wrong with that. It has its benefits under the right context...
For example, in bowling if you average 200, and your opponent averages 100, then the rating system would take the difference of skill (100 pins in this case) and mutiply by an equalizing factor (i.e. 90% would equal 90 pins in this case).
Because, if these two players played a heads up, even game, then they'd both have a theoretical 50% chance of winning, yet the stronger player would win over 99% of the time. Not much point in even playing the game, when the outcome is that pre-determined. In this case the skill difference would only be used for statistical purposes.
But instead, bowling leagues usually utilize the handicap system, whereby the lower player would be granted 90 pins bonus, before they even start. Thus
Strong Bowler __ Weaker Bowler _ Outcome
above average vs below average = stronger bowler wins guaranteed
below average vs above average = other bowler likely wins
below average vs below average = either bowler could win
above average vs above average = stronger bowler still likely wins, with rare exceptions
Makes the match more challenging, encouraging the weaker player to continue playing and allowing the player to be competitive while improving.
For fairness of what ive read on here.........BCA ALLDAY LONG!
i find that APA is great for the beginer pool player. it is simple, fun, and effective in mixing good players with inexperienced players so that the two can be in an environment that would otherwise not be available for some. personally, my game has improved by alot because of the fact that i am in a team with players that are both stronger and weaker than i am. I am able to help weaker players while at the same time, fine tuning my own skill set while getting advice and help from advanced players when i need it. its also more laid back and a generally fun environment for the less serious player.
League
Yes, BCA is 15 points per game. (times number of games played = total).
In BCA advanced, you have to be at least a 40 before you can qualify to play in the advanced league. A 40 is considered a good average player (about a 5 on the money 9 ball scale).
There are no 55 to 10 matchups in BCA. The lowest handicap I ever saw was mid 20's and it is match play, so the captains choose the players to matchup.
The better players prefer to play better players, so the better players are usually in the advanced league where the minimum is 40.
The regular leagues usually have few players with averages in the 50's, and if they do, it is low 50's usually. The lower players only have to get or exceed their average to help their team, they don't have to win. The team handicap added for overall score onto the raw score makes up the difference.
For example: If a team average is 180, then that team gets 20 points
(Based on 40 average per man), and the other team is 210, they would have a -10 team handicap. (5 players) So, it is not necessarily based on winning the games, it is based on how well you do on a given night per your average. If you don't get your average, then another team member has to exceed his to offset it. Setting a high average can be extremely tough to maintain during a whole session (everyone has bad nights - break isn't working - missed a ball and opponent runs out, etc.).
So, if you are a 52 matched up against a 48, one of you will not get his average since only 75 points are available in 5 games played and the averages added together equals 100. Say, the 52 ends up with a 55, then the opponent ends up with 20 (55 + 20 = 75).
Breaks are alternated. One player breaks game 1,3,5, and the other player breaks 2 and 4.
It is the most definitive scoring and handicap system, and most fair while still maintaining the competitiveness to it.
Yes, BCA is 15 points per game. (times number of games played = total).
In BCA advanced, you have to be at least a 40 before you can qualify to play in the advanced league. A 40 is considered a good average player (about a 5 on the money 9 ball scale).
There are no 55 to 10 matchups in BCA. The lowest handicap I ever saw was mid 20's and it is match play, so the captains choose the players to matchup.
The better players prefer to play better players, so the better players are usually in the advanced league where the minimum is 40.
The regular leagues usually have few players with averages in the 50's, and if they do, it is low 50's usually. The lower players only have to get or exceed their average to help their team, they don't have to win. The team handicap added for overall score onto the raw score makes up the difference.
For example: If a team average is 180, then that team gets 20 points
(Based on 40 average per man), and the other team is 210, they would have a -10 team handicap. (5 players) So, it is not necessarily based on winning the games, it is based on how well you do on a given night per your average. If you don't get your average, then another team member has to exceed his to offset it. Setting a high average can be extremely tough to maintain during a whole session (everyone has bad nights - break isn't working - missed a ball and opponent runs out, etc.).
So, if you are a 52 matched up against a 48, one of you will not get his average since only 75 points are available in 5 games played and the averages added together equals 100. Say, the 52 ends up with a 55, then the opponent ends up with 20 (55 + 20 = 75).
Breaks are alternated. One player breaks game 1,3,5, and the other player breaks 2 and 4.
It is the most definitive scoring and handicap system, and most fair while still maintaining the competitiveness to it.
daytonajoe
Deceased
Bca and Vnea are the better leagues. I have bben forced to play APA here in Greensboro due to it is about the only other system in the area. It is basically slop pool with bullshizit rules. Forced to shoot which set you make on break is a disadvantage at times. slam them and hope something goes. last night i make a killer safe or as they prefer defensive shot forcing my oponent to shoot at a clustered 8 but as i made the ball wit the safe i was forced to shoot again. it worked ok but is a a BS rule.. I am glad we are starting a 9 ball league with a set of rules that will make it fair ( acs format) on the 9 foot gold crowns at the local elks lodge!! But overall you can take the APA and stick it where the sun don't shine, it is a bangers league!!!
It really depends on how it's managed in each area
The goals of all leagues are to generate membership, make money, and promote the sport. Any good league operator is going to try to make the time and money we choose to spend feel fun and worthwhile so that we will want to continue to participate and help generate more members. Negative issues, regarding handicaps, sandbagging, etc. all detract from these goals and lead to comments that many on here make regarding various leagues.
I am in Raleigh NC and APA is by far the dominate league in our area. Our league operator has done a great job in promoting the game both for new / lower ranked players and has also been able to draw in most of the local top guns by promoting the masters format, (Raleigh teams took 1st and 5th places in Vegas last year). This mix really encourages our players to have fun and try to enhance their respective games as they would never normally get the opportunity to play some of these guys.
For me, the league format is secondary. I want to have fun, be challenged and have the ability to play the better or best guys around. I personally don't gamble, and here the APA (masters format) gives me the ability to play the best and be challenged.
Just so everyone knows, here we play on 9 foot tables, in masters, play a race to 7, no handicap, 8 ball is call pocket, and 9 ball is tournament rules. Its a real challenge.
The goals of all leagues are to generate membership, make money, and promote the sport. Any good league operator is going to try to make the time and money we choose to spend feel fun and worthwhile so that we will want to continue to participate and help generate more members. Negative issues, regarding handicaps, sandbagging, etc. all detract from these goals and lead to comments that many on here make regarding various leagues.
I am in Raleigh NC and APA is by far the dominate league in our area. Our league operator has done a great job in promoting the game both for new / lower ranked players and has also been able to draw in most of the local top guns by promoting the masters format, (Raleigh teams took 1st and 5th places in Vegas last year). This mix really encourages our players to have fun and try to enhance their respective games as they would never normally get the opportunity to play some of these guys.
For me, the league format is secondary. I want to have fun, be challenged and have the ability to play the better or best guys around. I personally don't gamble, and here the APA (masters format) gives me the ability to play the best and be challenged.
Just so everyone knows, here we play on 9 foot tables, in masters, play a race to 7, no handicap, 8 ball is call pocket, and 9 ball is tournament rules. Its a real challenge.
A
a_susie_cue
Guest
From what I have seen around my area, the BCA has handicaps for local league play. When you go to Vegas, it is a straight race. There are different levels of players such as open, masters grand masters, and pros.
A
a_susie_cue
Guest
It looks like the azer's prefer BCA