What english do I use?

[cstepro348]

I know this has been beaten into the ground but I am so confused...
Okay I hear people talking about Back hand and parallel english. I was wondering what the english I use is called.
I line up the shot, apply english and adjust for deflection.. what is that?

And I've noticed that the use of side-spin can make me miss the easiest shot in the world so Im hesitate to use it, any suggestions?

Lastly when I stroke for draw, i keep the cue level, aim a tip or more below center, and follow through really far, and sometimes i cant get anything! yet sometimes it works too well, and suggestions?

 

[acedotcom]

And I've noticed that the use of side-spin can make me miss the easiest shot in the world so Im hesitate to use it, any suggestions?

Lastly when I stroke for draw, i keep the cue level, aim a tip or more below center, and follow through really far, and sometimes i cant get anything! yet sometimes it works too well, and suggestions?

Practice, practice, practice. Seriously, it doesn't matter if you miss during practice, so experiment. L or R english is going to throw the ob, so practice shots of different lengths, varying the distance between the cb and ob, and at different speeds. In time, you'll be able to gauge the effect english will have on these shots.

Same goes for draw - practice straight in shots varying the distances, etc. Of course, your tip might have an effect on your ability to draw the ball. Ask a better player to try to draw the cb with your cue. Also, you can go lower than one tip's width below center. Experiment. Practice.

 

[BazookaJoe]

I stroke for draw, i keep the cue level, aim a tip or more below center, and follow through really far, and sometimes i cant get anything! yet sometimes it works too well, and suggestions?

How's the grip of your back hand?
Be sure you're not tightening up just before you hit the CB

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I know this has been beaten into the ground but I am so confused...
Okay I hear people talking about Back hand and parallel english. I was wondering what the english I use is called.
I line up the shot, apply english and adjust for deflection.. what is that?

And I've noticed that the use of side-spin can make me miss the easiest shot in the world so Im hesitate to use it, any suggestions?

Lastly when I stroke for draw, i keep the cue level, aim a tip or more below center, and follow through really far, and sometimes i cant get anything! yet sometimes it works too well, and suggestions?

BHE is a technique used by people who have a difficult time making shots while using side-spin. The technique involves lining up for a shot as though you were going to hit the cue-ball center and then pivoting your backhand in the opposite direction you intend to apply the english. In otherwords, if you want to use left english, you would pivot your backhand to the right after settling into your stance.

The underlying problem with this technique is that the compensation is rigid and does not take into account for distance. This technique is going to work for a specific range of shots but will over/under compensate once you fall outside that range.

I know it sounds like voodoo but the best approach to learning how to pocket balls while using english is to do it over and over until the balls begin to drop. Eventually, you begin to attain a feel for how the cue-ball will react and your instincts will dictate where and how you should line-up. Any other approach is going to yield artificial results and will inhibit your progress. I know it sucks but 'missing' is part of the learning process.

 

[cstepro348]

How's the grip of your back hand?
Be sure you're not tightening up just before you hit the CB

i always hold the cue just enough to keep it in my hand, not sure if i tighten before the shot though., pretty sure i dont

 

[CaptainJR]

I know this has been beaten into the ground but I am so confused...
Okay I hear people talking about Back hand and parallel english. I was wondering what the english I use is called.
I line up the shot, apply english and adjust for deflection.. what is that?

And I've noticed that the use of side-spin can make me miss the easiest shot in the world so Im hesitate to use it, any suggestions?

Lastly when I stroke for draw, i keep the cue level, aim a tip or more below center, and follow through really far, and sometimes i cant get anything! yet sometimes it works too well, and suggestions?

OK, I started that other thread so I guess I'm obligated to respond here.

You say you apply english and adjust for deflection. You are doing the two things required. What all the fuss was about was which order you do them in and it doesn't really matter. You might be doing it just fine, you just need to practice more to learn how much to adjust. See it all in your mind first while standing up. See where you want the cue ball to hit the object ball. See the english, see the adjustment, see the line your stick will be on because of all this. Now go down to the shot and stroke straight.

 

[Jal]

...Okay I hear people talking about Back hand and parallel english. I was wondering what the english I use is called.
I line up the shot, apply english and adjust for deflection.. what is that?

It's hard to say from the description.

If you put your bridge hand down such that you're lined up for centerball, and then pivot about your bridge by moving your grip hand in or out, that's backhand english.

If you put your bridge hand down such that you're lined up to apply english (no further adjustments except for minor aim corrections), that's parallel english.

In both cases, the direction of the stick should be the same. It's how you get there.

And I've noticed that the use of side-spin can make me miss the easiest shot in the world so Im hesitate to use it, any suggestions?

You will get the hang of it with experience. But it definitely is more difficult than hitting centerball.

Lastly when I stroke for draw, i keep the cue level, aim a tip or more below center, and follow through really far, and sometimes i cant get anything! yet sometimes it works too well, and suggestions?

It could be a lot of things, all resulting in you're not hitting the cueball where you think you are. If, for instance, you're using an open bridge and gripping the cue too tightly (but inconsistently tight), you could be liffting the shaft off the bridge sometims. It's hard to tell when this is occuring, even though it's happening right in front of your eyeballs.

Or you could be moving your elbow up or down during the business portion of the stroke. It's better to keep it still for the very reason of maintaining consistency.

To check where the tip is actually contacting the ball, use a striped ball with the stripe oriented horizontally for the cueball. Look at where the chalk mark is located on the ball after the shot. A fairly loose grip should help with consistency.

Your stroke may be just fine, but judging how much backspin to put on the ball could be the problem. Controlling how much draw you get isn't that easy, especially when the balls are far apart.

Jim

 

[SlickRick_PCS]

Okay I hear people talking about Back hand and parallel english. I was wondering what the english I use is called.
I line up the shot, apply english and adjust for deflection.. what is that?

If your object ball (OB) is near the left side pocket and your cueball (CB) is like 45 degrees dead on to make the OB, these are the characteristics of making it with center, left and right English.
When you pot the OB with center on the CB, what you are doing *and perhaps you don't realize this* but you have inserted a tiny bit of counterclockwise motion of the OB (get it? right english) which makes the OB throw to the right. This is no big deal... really. When you put a tip of left english on the CB to pot the OB, you're fighting against the throw and making it "straight". BUT, if you want more throw into the OB, then you have to put a tip of right english to insert more throw into the OB (which this can sometimes be a necessity).

And I've noticed that the use of side-spin can make me miss the easiest shot in the world so Im hesitate to use it, any suggestions?

there is a way to compensate for this phenominon called squirt, but I'd rather give you a website where the great Bob Jewett shows you about cue compensation: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-10.pdf

Lastly when I stroke for draw, i keep the cue level, aim a tip or more below center, and follow through really far, and sometimes i cant get anything! yet sometimes it works too well, and suggestions?

I love draw shots! But saddly, it all depends on the conditions of the table... to a certain degree. My recommendation for having a good stroke is (aside from the word: PRACTICE) keeping your lower arm straight yet relaxed. As Scott Lee recommends as well, try not to lower your elbow down but work on your tricepts to be as stiff and straight as possible (seems like a task, but it's possible). Another thing that I have observed when I got my draw stroke to become alot sweeter is to try to practice not to keep your wrist locked and to get them straight. Make sure that power is not an involvement when following through but make it a smooth and effortless "whip" through the cueball. Now don't follow thru too much where your tip is gonna meet the object ball, just go passed where the back end of the ball is. Or if you're gonna make a deeper DRAW, then follow through aprox. 13 inches if you can hold it enough.

I'M OUT!!

 

[wayne]

BHE is a technique used by people who have a difficult time making shots while using side-spin.

I wonder if you took a survey of people who use BHE, how many would say it was because they have difficulty making shots using side-spin? My guess is that it could be less than 10%. For many BHE is a much better technique and easier to master if taught correctly than side-spin. The action from the 2 different techniques is different so both have a value depending on the circumstances. I believe a well rounded player would be capable of using both effectively and neither one should present much difficulty.

Wayne

 

[cstepro348]

I love draw shots! But saddly, it all depends on the conditions of the table... to a certain degree. My recommendation for having a good stroke is (aside from the word: PRACTICE) keeping your lower arm straight yet relaxed. As Scott Lee recommends as well, try not to lower your elbow down but work on your tricepts to be as stiff and straight as possible (seems like a task, but it's possible). Another thing that I have observed when I got my draw stroke to become alot sweeter is to try to practice not to keep your wrist locked and to get them straight. Make sure that power is not an involvement when following through but make it a smooth and effortless "whip" through the cueball. Now don't follow thru too much where your tip is gonna meet the object ball, just go passed where the back end of the ball is. Or if you're gonna make a deeper DRAW, then follow through aprox. 13 inches if you can hold it enough.

I'M OUT!![/QUOTE]

When you say drop my elbow, are you talking about bridge elbow or grip elbow?

 

[cstepro348]

So by me lining up the shot then moving my brigde hand to apply english, then compensating for squirt that is a good way to keep practicing?


1 more guys, sorry, if i line up then move my bridge 1.5 tips to the right, should i move my grip hand that far over or stroke the cue ball at an angle?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I wonder if you took a survey of people who use BHE, how many would say it was because they have difficulty making shots using side-spin? My guess is that it could be less than 10%. For many BHE is a much better technique and easier to master if taught correctly than side-spin. The action from the 2 different techniques is different so both have a value depending on the circumstances. I believe a well rounded player would be capable of using both effectively and neither one should present much difficulty.

Wayne

Wayne, what I'm trying to get at is, I don't make a calculated compensation when using english. I just see it. I decide on which english to use and I visualize where I need to contact the object ball. ANY system that is calculated (IMO) inhibits the learning process. You cannot "master" the use of english while using BHE.

It's just like language. Some people think knowing all the rules of language will equal mastery of that language. On the contrary, you need a 'feel' for language that goes well beyond just the rules. In fact, knowledge of the actual rules is almost unnecessary.

You want to master english, it has to be instinctual.

 

[supergreenman]

BHE is a technique used by people who have a difficult time making shots while using side-spin. The technique involves lining up for a shot as though you were going to hit the cue-ball center and then pivoting your backhand in the opposite direction you intend to apply the english. In otherwords, if you want to use left english, you would pivot your backhand to the right after settling into your stance.

The underlying problem with this technique is that the compensation is rigid and does not take into account for distance. This technique is going to work for a specific range of shots but will over/under compensate once you fall outside that range.

I know it sounds like voodoo but the best approach to learning how to pocket balls while using english is to do it over and over until the balls begin to drop. Eventually, you begin to attain a feel for how the cue-ball will react and your instincts will dictate where and how you should line-up. Any other approach is going to yield artificial results and will inhibit your progress. I know it sucks but 'missing' is part of the learning process.

And the crowd goes wild for the clearest most concise explanation of BHE I have ever read.

I was so moved I considered canceling that truckload of raisins I had shipped to your house yesturday.

Well done Jude.

 

[SlickRick_PCS]

So by me lining up the shot then moving my brigde hand to apply english, then compensating for squirt that is a good way to keep practicing?


1 more guys, sorry, if i line up then move my bridge 1.5 tips to the right, should i move my grip hand that far over or stroke the cue ball at an angle?

It works for me! Unless you wanna move your cue to the depended English you apply and change your aiming path due to squirt, then I recommend you pivot your cue instead. Pivot by means that you aim center and with your back end of the cue aim the tip to the specific English you desire and apply. In any game, by the way, no pool player would apply more than one tip of Right or Left English so if you want to maintain control of the cueball for anything necessary, do not go more than 1 tip.

Last but not least, this is a forum. Do not feel sorry about asking us questions; that's why we're here. We set our experiene and opinions so that we can help you. There are those joksters out there that just post for points (which by the way you guys rock! ) but most of us would send you our honest opinons and sugestions. So feel free to throw in the good questions!

 

[PoolFool]

How to use English... rule #1: I before E except after C... with the exception of the word Science.

 

[VIProfessor]

I know this has been beaten into the ground but I am so confused...
Okay I hear people talking about Back hand and parallel english. I was wondering what the english I use is called.
I line up the shot, apply english and adjust for deflection.. what is that?

And I've noticed that the use of side-spin can make me miss the easiest shot in the world so Im hesitate to use it, any suggestions?

Lastly when I stroke for draw, i keep the cue level, aim a tip or more below center, and follow through really far, and sometimes i cant get anything! yet sometimes it works too well, and suggestions?

I have two pieces of advice for you:

First, reread Jude Rodenstock's posts on this thread and take their contents as gospel. He is giving you solid gold advice!

Second, as it relates to draw, check out the following thread, which is chock full of excellent advice from quality players and some of the most highly regarded instructors in the country (perhaps the world!).

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=45216&highlight=draw

Good luck and remember to try without trying!

VIProfessor

 

[cstepro348]

How to use English... rule #1: I before E except after C... with the exception of the word Science.

Okay, what?


Lastly, what does dropping the elbow mean? Dropping the bridge elbow during the final stroke?

 

[VIProfessor]

Okay, what?


Lastly, what does dropping the elbow mean? Dropping the bridge elbow during the final stroke?

No, one thing that I believe will meet with universal agreement is the concept that no part of your bridge hand or arm should move at all during your stroke. It is the surest way to miss your shot.

The posters are referring to the elbow of the stroking arm. Some players are of the belief that the elbow of the stroking arm should drop during the follow through (after contact with the cue ball!), while other players and instructors, like Randy G and Scott Lee, believe that dropping the elbow during the follow through does not add power or action to the stroke and may be counterproductive, as it may lead players to drop their elbow before or during contact. The debate on that subject produced a thread on the CCB forum (on the Billiards Digest website) which lasted for weeks and months! Feel free to check it out!

Lastly, I strongly suggest that if at all possible, you should seek the services of a qualified instructor. Despite the fact that there is excellent advice offered on this forum, none of us can actually see you play and make a proper evaluation of what you are doing correctly or incorrectly. Further, as you have seen, you will receive a lot of conflicting advice on this forum, and I don't know that you have enough pool knowledge at this point to accurately distinguish the good from the bad.

Lessons from a qualified instructor will shave years off your learning curve because you will be able to establish a sound foundation and fundamentals from the beginning. From there, future improvement will be much easier as you will have a solid base from which to grow.

Good luck, and try without trying!
VIProfessor

 

[Flex]

The underlying problem with this technique is that the compensation is rigid and does not take into account for distance. This technique is going to work for a specific range of shots but will over/under compensate once you fall outside that range.

Actually, Jude, applying BHE is not as rigid as you say. It just helps with certain shots when english is used. It doesn't change the speed of the cloth, or the way the cue ball may curve going down table, it doesn't change the way object balls throw. What it does do, though, is make it easier to deliver the cue ball to a specific location on the table, and that can be the difference between making the shot or missing the shot, and subsequently getting shape. The speed or power of the shot when BHE is used will alter how the cue ball rolls, how object balls are thrown, and how shape is attained.

I use both parallel and BHE and a mixture, depending on the shot. All in all, when shooting pool, getting the feel for a shot is largely a matter of trial and error. Some strokes are less "feely" but even then, if the shot doesn't feel right and the ball pots correctly, shooting the shot over and over to make it feel right will likely be necessary.

Truth be told, just staying on the vertical axis and varying the stroke and speed of the shot can greatly influence throw and accuracy.

Pool isn't simple, although some players sure do make it look like it is.

Flex

 

[Flex]

In any game, by the way, no pool player would apply more than one tip of Right or Left English so if you want to maintain control of the cueball for anything necessary, do not go more than 1 tip.

It sounds like you don't know the benefits of judiciously applied extreme english on some shots. Surprises me to see you write that. Certain shots almost require extreme english... If someone doesn't practice them and get the feel for them, their game will be lacking, at least to a certain extent.

Experiment!!

Flex