What is a good aiming system?

[Patrick Johnson]

Of course I left things out.

"Of course"? You seem to have left out everything but your claim that it's a system. Why?

I told what the aiming system did, not how it did it.

OK, but (as I've said over and over) how is the topic I'm addressing.

I presented an aiming system and reviewed it's strengths and weaknesses.

I must have missed that part - maybe you could tell me which post it's in.

Because it isn't a fixed point system you can't use math to attempt to prove it invalid.

I don't try to invalidate systems - in fact I'm very careful to say (over and over, and more than once to you directly) that they're valuable to their users - I try to explore how they work. You seem to think that exploring that is an attack on you or your system.

Therefore you disregard it as an aiming system.

I disregard it as an aiming system because you haven't described anything about it that makes it an aiming system. Until you do, I can't regard it as anything.

You make a joke of the compliments Mike Page and Dr. Dave paid you earlier in this thread.

You mean they weren't joking?

pj
chgo

 

[Sofaking]

What's your point, Mr. Johnson?

In the original post, the gentleman asked a simple question, "What is a good aiming system?"
I don't recall him asking to prove through math, science, or anything else, "how" these systems work.
A few people have honestly tried to give the gentleman some valid suggestions to try and some contact information to get the help that he has asked for.
Rather than attacking people about the symantics of grammar or the invalid science behind the uses of the systems, or the math necessary to make something valid or invalid, etc. Tell the man what you believe is a good aiming system. If your not willing to share your knowledge with the public, which I believe is a very valid position, just say so and tell the man what it would take to learn it from you if you teach it.
Telling someone that something doesn't work, or is not valid is utterly preposturous. If someone uses it, and it works, IT WORKS.
I have been personally interested in this thread because I don't use a system and have been anxious to see what I could learn.
From original posts, I was thinking that you were a person that I would gain a great bit of knowledge from. Now, I'm led to believe that you prefer to confront and degrade posters and puff yourself than to actually contribute to their understanding.
I'll try now to ask you directly, "What's a good aiming system?"

thanks

 

[Cuemaster98]

There's seem to be a lot of aiming system out there....anybody has any "Shape" system? It would be deadly is you have an aiming system with a shape system.

I try combining what I know of the "Clock System" with Ron Vitello's Aiming system...work out good so far. Any body have more information on Clock System? Btw...I was told teh clock system is also an aiming system. Any information on this would be appreciated.

Here a simple example that I've tried.

OB is 1 diamond (R and L) of corner pocket. CB is 2 diamonds away (1 diamond from rail). Using Ron system, my bridge hand is left of the Object....Edge of CB..align to Center of OB, Then Swivel the cue to right to center of Cueball...this is now my line of aim. Once I find my line of aim, I will use the clock system to determine my shape...12 o'clock the ball going into side pocket...1 o'clock it goes 1 diamond away from side pocket.. 2 o'clock..etc..etc. So depending on where I get to, I would use the clock system...to give me an image where I want the cue ball to be. Also...there are 3 circle on the cueball that will determine my speed...the 1 circle is slow, 2 circle is medium and 3 circle is fast. Depending on where you hit...clock, circle...determine your cue ball location. It's important to note...once the line of aim is found...and you choose 9 o'clock, 3 circle...in my example this is put extreme left on the ball...sending the cue ball to top rail. How's this affect Ron's system..doesn't. If this is what you wanted to do...you wouldn't have to pivot...just shoot (9 o'clock 3 circle...is where you would have your cue anyway). Now..if you shooting 3 O'clock...that different...you will need to pivot to center..than parallel your line of aim at 3'Oclock and shoot. Also, important to note...there are some shot that Ron Vitello show me that don't need any adjustment...similar to the 9 o'clock 3 circle example. Try these out for yourself and let me know what you think.

Any thoughts on combining these systems? I learned a bit of the clock system from "little Joe" from Davenport...he actually made a DVD about the clock system. Really good at teaching the effect of Cueball Rotation when it hits the rail. Anyway, it would be great if we someone or we can colaborate a system that involve aiming with a shape system for a complete package system that can be taught to everyone...to improve all of our games.

Just a thought.....welcome feedback and improvements.

My Illustration Below:

Regards,
Duc.

 

[Cuemaster98]

Ok...added some illustrations...hoping this make it clearer for those that are more visual. I'm in the learning process...so I like to welcome feedback in regards to this combination of systems....has anyone done this?? Rep me if this is a good system LOL. If this interest you..you need to learn the aiming from Ron Vitello.

Forgot to mention...if you use center ball the shape will be very simple as 80 of shape can be done with center ball. If this example center ball hit..will be almost like 2 o'clock. The tangent line changes...when you hit up or down..so when you hit 3 o'clock the tangent is the same as centerball but spin once it contact the rail will send the ball wide. Of course this is only consistent if the table is perfect...and most tables are not? Still need trial and error I think to adjust for shape.

Regards,
Duc.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Sofaking:
What's your point, Mr. Johnson?

In the original post, the gentleman asked a simple question, "What is a good aiming system?"

Here's my response to his original post (#5 in this thread).

Razorback Randy:
... I don't really know how to aim other than just feel.

You'll always aim by feel; no system will change that. Even with the "systems" that show you exactly where to hit the OB ("ghost ball", "double overlap", "paralleling") you need to "feel" when you're lined up exactly right and "feel" how much adjustment to make for OB throw and CB squirt/swerve.

And most systems don't show you exactly where to hit the OB; they give you an approximate aim point (which you have to line up correctly by feel) and from that you have to adjust to the real aim point by feel. "Approximating" systems include all the systems that are not the well-known "exact" systems I named above.

"Approximating" systems include those taught by Hal Houle, Cue-Tech, RonV, Stan Shuffet, Joe Tucker and others, going by such names as "fractional aiming", "3-angles", "S.A.M.", "center-to-edge", "Pro 1", etc., etc. Some users and teachers of these systems will tell you that they are "exact" systems that need no adjustments, but they're wrong. All of them are approximation systems and all of them require you to adjust your aim by feel. The only one that I'm aware of that actually admits this fact openly is Joe Tucker's system.

At times I don't feel confident that I am aiming at the right place on the object ball.

Confidence is essential to increasing your "feel" for aiming, with or without an aiming system, and one of the main benefits of using a system is that it can help boost your confidence by narrowing down the range of choices you have to make by feel. Even players who don't think they use any system often use one (or more) unconsciously - for instance, when faced with a tough shot they might get a "second opinion" on their aim by imagining how "ghost ball" or "double overlap" aim would look. Many players use different systems for different kinds of shots - for instance, the "double overlap" system is especially useful for long thin cut shots.

Whether or not you use a system(s) and which one(s) you use are personal choices. Hopefully understanding exactly what aiming systems are and are not before you make those decisions will help you make the right ones for you.

pj
chgo

A few people have honestly tried to give the gentleman some valid suggestions

Including me. Where are your valid suggestions, Mr. Sofaking?

pj
chgo

 

[TheConArtist]

I have never meet or spoke to Hal Houle but a few members here shared what they learned with me thru emails. I also talked with Ron Vitello thru emails, a great guy. The system he was explaining to me was some what like the Pivot System of Hals. Only difference is you move your hips when you pivot the cue to the center of the cueball rather then using BHE.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

there are 3 circle on the cueball that will determine my speed...the 1 circle is slow, 2 circle is medium and 3 circle is fast.

If those are the circles I see faintly on your diagram's cue ball, they're spaced too far apart. The "2 circle" is about at the miscue point and the "3 circle" is way into miscue territory.

pj
chgo

 

[Cuemaster98]

If those are the circles I see faintly on your diagram's cue ball, they're spaced too far apart. The "2 circle" is about at the miscue point and the "3 circle" is way into miscue territory.

pj
chgo

You;re probably right....just bad illustration on my part..but hopefully it convey the right idea? Any comments on the use of these systems? I'll probably do a video to illustrate this example a little better... Btw, I think buddy hall showed a bit of the clock system as well on his training video.

Regards,
Duc.

 

[Razorback Randy]

You;re probably right....just bad illustration on my part..but hopefully it convey the right idea? Any comments on the use of these systems? I'll probably do a video to illustrate this example a little better... Btw, I think buddy hall showed a bit of the clock system as well on his training video.

Regards,
Duc.

Buddy Hall has a video and Bert Kinister also has a video on the clock system.

 

[poolplayerpatti]

I have had a problem with that recently and then I remembered that after I line up my object ball where I want it to go, and get that spot on the object ball where the cue ball needs to contact it, I just point at that spot with my cue (line up my cue straight toward that spot) when I'm shooting, (straight shooting, no english) and it really improved the number of balls I was able to run.

 

[BigCat]

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V arrq nabgure orre!

LOL!!!!

A plan it is!

You'll probably need 5 to 6 more beers after encoding that one :smile:. You must be tired after all that digital encoding... LOL!

Too funny!

Ray

 

[Sofaking]

Let's get this straight Mr. Johnson

Mr. Johnson,
Why so defensive? I stated in my post that I perceive you as a person of great knowledge and expertise. You certainly present yourself that way; and, I know that others on here say that you are as well.
I'm new here. I have no beef with you or anyone else on AZB. I also have no agenda whatsoever. I'm simply here to talk pool with others that want to talk pool. I'm not an expert or pro in anything pool related. In fact, I'm hoping to learn as much as possible. This topic as I stated in my post is very interesting to me because I'm intrigued to see if something may work for me. Here's my problem with your responses.

Here's my response to his original post (#5 in this thread).

I've just gone through this response numerous times and the only suggestions that I see that could possibly be used as helpful in the whole response is that the double overlap system is useful on long cut shots. The rest of the response is simply you being a critic of other people's work. I see that have done your due diligence and have spent time and effort to prove that they are not precise; but, how does that help someone looking for a good aiming system? You don't say that any of them are good. Are any aiming systems good? Which ones work?



Including me. Where are your valid suggestions, Mr. Sofaking?
My suggestion to the original poster would be to speak to one of the gentleman that teaches the systems to find out more about them. Go to someone who "teaches" not someone who is a "critic".
Again, I don't want to have a debate with you or anyone else about what works or does not work. Quite frankly, I can't because I don't know enough. I thought you were the expert. So your expert opinion is to not use any aiming system because none are very precise and they all require a certain degree of "feel"? therefore you may as well just shoot by feel all the time?
Again, and please answer this one question, please. What is a good aiming system? That's all we want to know.
By the way, if you want to attack me, I'll tell you now that I will allow you to have the last shot and I will simply move on to converse with someone who I can have a discussion with. I have no intent on continuing a personal argument.
pj
chgo

 

[Sofaking]

proof to how green I am

I don't even know how to use the quote button. sorry folks

 

[eezbank]

Mr. Johnson,
Why so defensive? I stated in my post that I perceive you as a person of great knowledge and expertise. You certainly present yourself that way; and, I know that others on here say that you are as well.
I'm new here. I have no beef with you or anyone else on AZB. I also have no agenda whatsoever. I'm simply here to talk pool with others that want to talk pool. I'm not an expert or pro in anything pool related. In fact, I'm hoping to learn as much as possible. This topic as I stated in my post is very interesting to me because I'm intrigued to see if something may work for me. Here's my problem with your responses.

read further into it. they make assumptions on systems they don't understand. it's easier to tear things down then to offer some useful advice. i'm glad you see through it like i'm sure alot of us do here.

 

[Jimmy M.]

read further into it. they make assumptions on systems they don't understand. it's easier to tear things down then to offer some useful advice. i'm glad you see through it like i'm sure alot of us do here.

The people who think they understand them don't even understand them. That's why they tell you to call someone else any time anyone asks for them to explain it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'm new here. I have no beef with you or anyone else on AZB.

Oh, my mistake. I must have been confused when you said this to me:

you prefer to confront and degrade posters and puff yourself than to actually contribute to their understanding.

So now that we know you have no beef with me, back to your questions.

I see that have done your due diligence and have spent time and effort to prove that they are not precise; but, how does that help someone looking for a good aiming system?

You don't think somebody looking for a good aiming system would benefit from knowing what the truth and the hype is about aiming systems? You don't think it would help them to know what's true and what's false about aiming systems in general? When you're shopping for something don't you want to learn all you can about it?

your expert opinion is to not use any aiming system because none are very precise and they all require a certain degree of "feel"?

No, that's not my opinion - I've said over and over that I think aiming systems are valuable to those who use them. The fact that they all require a certain degree of "feel" is just a fact that I think many system users will benefit from knowing. Do you think that fact should be hidden from somebody who's looking for an aiming system? Is it some kind of secret?

It sounds to me like you think the need to use feel is some kind of drawback in a system. Maybe we should be asking you why you feel that way.

pj
chgo

 

[Razorback Randy]

Thanks for everyones help!

 

[Darth]

Jimmy Reid's Systems.........

I've had Jimmy Reids dvd set for a couple of years now and every time I get into a 'funk', I play the entire set of five and it gets me back into a groove. I played in the ACS Florida championships 2 weeks ago and finished 12th out of 74 in the singles, 12th out of 40 in the scotch doubles with a first time lady partner and my team finished 4th out of 40 teams. I was fortunate to have Jimmy for a teacher early in my life. We still maintain a close friendly relationship. I feel that the knowledge he gave me both in person and through his dvd's helped me get through some of the tough safeties that were played against me in the tournament. I would have done better but it's difficult to beat break and runs and run outs from a dry break but that's the rolls of the game sometimes. If anyone is interested in trying Jimmys dvd's for themselves here is a link for you. Enjoy, Paul.http://cgi.ebay.com/Pool-And-Billia...ryZ75195QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem