What is an amateur?

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
I am not looking for the definition, I know the word. My question is more philosophical.

In sports, an amateur is simply a person who does not make their living from playing a particular game. It has no ties to their ability as can be seen in the Olympics where amateurs are every bit as good as the pros. That is in most sports.

In Golf there have been many amateurs who have been capable of competing at a professional level. Nevertheless it has been rare for them to win against a professional as the latter spends most of their time playing golf.

Pool is a bit odd though. There are many "professionals" who do not make the majority of their living from playing pool, but they are still considered pros. Many of these players by definition are amateurs, however they would not be permitted to compete in the US Amateur Open. Or maybe they can, but I doubt it. One example comes to mind of a pro who is technically an amateur is George Breedlove. However he has a tape on accu-stats where he shoots .900+.

I understand the reason why most pros have a legit job. The prize money is so low at the moment that only a very small percentage can sustain themselves from prize money and endorsements.

I don't really know what my point is anymore, as I am rambling a bit. But I think it is interesting that the term amateur has a different meaning for pool. It seems to denote a level of playing ability rather occupation.

When I first got the idea that I wanted to be able to play at a world class level, I thought it would be a cool accomplishment to be an amateur and win a major championship. Kinda like Bobby Jones jr. However if I were to accomplish this nobody would notice since, as far as pool is concerned, I would not be an amateur.
 
An amateur is someone who cannot accept the money won in a pro event, for example, Michele Wie before she turned pro.:D

Someone who cannot make a living from pro events has a hobby.:D :D

Someone who complains that he cannot make a living from his hobby is called a whiner.:D :D :D
 
lol, great reasoning!

A then B
B then C
therefore A then C.

Amateur = whiner!

Who said philosophy was boring.
 
Scaramouche said:
An amateur is someone who cannot accept the money won in a pro event, for example, Michele Wie before she turned pro.:D

Someone who cannot make a living from pro events has a hobby.:D :D

Someone who complains that he cannot make a living from his hobby is called a whiner.:D :D :D


Funny stuff! :)
Some of the amatuers I know, can beat the pants off some of the Professionals on the "pro list"
 
It's an interesting question. If you go by the ability to make a living playing pool, there are only about a half a dozen women, and maybe 20 or so male "professionals". The APA classifies a person a "pro" if half their income comes from pool. That means there are an awful lot of players who think they are pros that could play in an amateur league. If you try to hold an amateur only tournament, how do you determine who can or can't play? Skill level? Who decides which players are too good to play? How about everyone who has an IPT tour card? There are plenty of players on the tour who can't even carry the cue cases of some top level league players. Until the entire sport becomes better organized, this question is never going to have a clear answer. If the IPT survives, we may be a step closer.
Steve
 
amateur

Listing to a golf show on the radio the other day, they were discussing how some course 'professionals' (guys that teach, promote, etc) get to play in the golf-pro tournament (designated for true course pro's), then turn around and play in more PGA events than most card holders. Essentially double dipping the 'amateur' ranks and playing in pro events (and doing well I might add). The line between pro and amateur is a little blurry other places, but why is pool so much more blurred?

I see the biggest arguements and disagreements on what to call people. Pro or amateur. Also on ranking for handicap tournaments(A, B, C, AA A+++, whatever). Why is pool so difficult to discern when other sports are not? Surely it is not just the fact that we have no real established professional circuit.:confused:

I agree with what was posted earlier. There are only a small handful of real 'professionals' who earn a legitimate living off the game and endorsements (not gambling) and many who just have an expensive and time consuming 'hobby'.

Wish I had more time and $$$ for my hobby! :D
 
deadstroke7 said:
Why is pool so difficult to discern when other sports are not? :D

In golf, a player's score is measured against the course. If 100 golfers play 100 matches on the same course, you will have an accurate measure of their skill. If 100 poolplayers play 100 matches you only have a measure of how they did against the players they matched up against. And the only recorded scores are in tournaments. But different tournaments have different players, so the skill required to win a tournament depends on who the other players are. Since it is usually different from tournament to tournament, we still don't have an accurate scale. Add to that the fact that each tour keeps it's own records, but those statistics aren't shared with other tours, and the lines are blurred even more. Johnny Archer might be ranked number 1 on the UPA, Efren number 1 on the IPT, Allison on the WPBA, someone else on the Joss tour, Viking tour, etc. There is no central database that covers all matches and players, so there is no true measure of any player's skill.
Steve
 
Would you pay a reasonable entry fee to play in a tournament with a plastic trophy as a prize? Say pay $20 to play and if you win you get a trophy. If the answer is yes you are probably an amateur. If you want the tournament to pay cash, you aren't. In pool nobody is really an amateur because of you ever take prize money you aren't. As relatively bad as I am, I have won a cash prize. (on bar boxes for those who thought I would never play on them. Yes, it was bad for pool.;) ) Taking the cash takes you out of the amateur realm. That is impractical in pool. So I think my definition works in a sport with no real amateur rules. FWIW I think the USGA has failed to regulate amateurism sufficiently in golf, and golf is the sport with probably the strictest rules. I hate seeing "amateurs" wearing logos, especially when they turn pro a week later and somehow, magically, they sign a contract with the company whose logo they were wearing. An amateur pays to play, doesn't profit off of their play, doesn't give lessons for money, does not lend their name or likeness for money. So, who would play for the trophy?
 
Not that is matters, but the original 'professionals' did not nessesarily 'play the game', rather they were employed in a job that would allow them to become proficient in an activity. As an example, fisherman were considered 'professionals' when it comes to rowing events. The thinking was that because fisherman row their boats daily, they would have an unfair advantage over the sportsman who rowed in their matching sweaters every Sunday after church. It would not be sporting to let fisherman row against the Cambridge upperclassmen. Of course this has evolved to what we have today, a sport-by-sport regulation.

The concept of amateur vs. pro in golf is well defined, and includes a process to move between the classifications. It is part of the R&A, RCGA, USGA, and PGA regulations. There must surely be similar distinctions in tennis, as regulated by the USTA etc, and in other sports with similar issues. With respect to pool, since there is no accepted pool regulator, there is no opportunity to regulate the distinction, hence no distinction between pro and amateur whatsoever. It's all in the eye of the beholder, or the ego of the player, or the opinion of the TD. QED.

Here is the RCGA page with the rules around "who is an amateur and who is a professional" in the world of Canadian golf (I believe that the R&A and USGA rules MUST be similar if not identical). It's long and somewhat complicated, kinda like the NCAA regulations. As I pointed out, there is nothing like this in the pool world (except as implimented by specific tournaments or leagues), hence no distiction between pro and amateur.

http://www.rcga.org/english/AmateurStatus/rules.asp

Dave
 
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Scaramouche said:
An amateur is someone who cannot accept the money won in a pro event, for example, Michele Wie before she turned pro.:D

Someone who cannot make a living from pro events has a hobby.:D :D

Someone who complains that he cannot make a living from his hobby is called a whiner.:D :D :D

'Mouche,
Tap, tap, tap. My choice for POY (Post of the Year) so far.
 
DaveK said:
Not that is matters, but the original 'professionals' did not nessesarily 'play the game', rather they were employed in a job that would allow them to become proficient in an activity. As an example, fisherman were considered 'professionals' when it comes to rowing events. The thinking was that because fisherman row their boats daily, they would have an unfair advantage over the sportsman who rowed in their matching sweaters every Sunday after church. It would not be sporting to let fisherman row against the Cambridge upperclassmen. Of course this has evolved to what we have today, a sport-by-sport regulation.


Dave

Thanks for that, I found it really interesting. :)

The history of Pro vs. Amateur in golf is very fascinating. For the longest time the pro was ostracized from the club houses. They were considered at the low end of the totem pole, even though they had mastered their craft. Walter Hagen of the US was one of the first to start breaking down these barriers as he began pushing the envelope.
 
It's interesting about olympians in high profile sports. Training is their full time job. For many it has been their whole life. To me they're pro's, they don't "do" anything else. Money comes from sponsors or endorsements and so what if it isn't won? They still make a living off of their sport. I don't have a job and play pool quite a bit, never will be a pro by any defination (due mostly to supernormal ability):D But it is what I do. No money in endorsements though.lol

Btw I'm agreeing with everyone about Scaramouche post. Dead on I'm a hobby player for sure.

How much expense would you incur, travel, entry fees etc for an event or tour that gave out trophies and not money. That is the question to ask to see if you're a pro, ametuer, hobbiest or whinner.

Andy
 
I tend to think that anyone that is sending Uncle Sam money or claiming deductions from Uncle Same for Pool (Income/Expenses) is considered a professional.

In my opinion the only true Professional pool players are players that have sponsorships....The rest are ameatures, or ameatures trying to break into the Pro Ranks.
 
Yep, that is the proper definition. It is interesting though that I will be at the pool hall and some one points out a guy and says "He is one of the top pros in the city." and then says "he works at general dynamics down town."
 
BRKNRUN said:
I tend to think that anyone that is sending Uncle Sam money or claiming deductions from Uncle Same for Pool (Income/Expenses) is considered a professional.

In my opinion the only true Professional pool players are players that have sponsorships....The rest are ameatures, or ameatures trying to break into the Pro Ranks.


I agree with this statement. Unfortunatly uncle sam doesn't want money from a pool player unless he profits from pool three consecutive years. Sorry to those of us that have only done it for two and then get dumped by our posing sponsor's. Live and learn always get contracts. If someone doesn't like contracts it is because they want the option of screwing you.

The second part of this post is where I draw my line. I think if you can safely say "I will be taking care of my family no matter how I finish." then you are a pro. 38.46 a day doesn't cover it. It boils down to getting paid to show up. Like a bench warmer you get paid just to be there. This is the difference.
 
JamisonNeu said:
I agree with this statement. Unfortunatly uncle sam doesn't want money from a pool player unless he profits from pool three consecutive years. Sorry to those of us that have only done it for two and then get dumped by our posing sponsor's. Live and learn always get contracts. If someone doesn't like contracts it is because they want the option of screwing you.

The second part of this post is where I draw my line. I think if you can safely say "I will be taking care of my family no matter how I finish." then you are a pro. 38.46 a day doesn't cover it. It boils down to getting paid to show up. Like a bench warmer you get paid just to be there. This is the difference.

Sounds like you need to try to qualify for the IPT.
 
zeeder said:
Sounds like you need to try to qualify for the IPT.

Zeeder,
2G is alot of cash to risk when you are not living with mom and dad. I have a family to think of and 2 grand is alot of bacon. What happend to try outs that would be more like pro sports. Not to say I wouldn't enter contract with a respected company looking to split profit when I get in.
Jamison
 
JamisonNeu said:
Zeeder,
2G is alot of cash to risk when you are not living with mom and dad. I have a family to think of and 2 grand is alot of bacon. What happend to try outs that would be more like pro sports. Not to say I wouldn't enter contract with a respected company looking to split profit when I get in.
Jamison


I hear this sentiment a lot.

Sooo.. Are you saying that you want a low cost/free opportunity to make money? You would also like to have a chance to make money where all the financial risks are on someone else?


Eric
 
JamisonNeu said:
Zeeder,
2G is alot of cash to risk when you are not living with mom and dad. I have a family to think of and 2 grand is alot of bacon. What happend to try outs that would be more like pro sports. Not to say I wouldn't enter contract with a respected company looking to split profit when I get in.
Jamison


Q School is way more than 2K to qualify for the PGA, yet many people still try......and the expense is a tax write off if you file as a Professional Golfer....or Golf Professional for that matter....

I would imagine pool is the same way.

Just as in Golf if you are good someone will notice and want to pay your way..

Pool is the same way...For example...Mark Tadd even though he is not in the IPT, he would probably have no problem finding a sponsor...known in the pool world as backer....

If you are good...someone WILL back you... (I personally am not good enough to be backed...unless someone does not like money)...
 
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BRKNRUN,
I am sponsored and yes, the first one found me. As well as the one I have now. We don't have a contract for me to play in the IPT. I have not thought of it before Zeeders post (Thank's Zack). As this is not my first sponsor I know better than to try and add things on to the deal midway. Seeing how I don't wish to change current management what I was saying to answer Zeeder's post is maybe, I could just add one more on to the list of sponsor's I allready have.

Eric,
In short yes, I would love this chance to make myself some more grip. Wouldn't you?

Have you ever been to a highroller room in Vegas? I think 2g is alot but, some don't.

I am not asking anybody for risk free money. I am after all the one who has to play and/or endorse products for them. Not only that how did this thread get turned around and focused on me.

Are you implying that all sponsored players are asking for risk free money?

Jamison
 
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