What is the one English shot that you want?

Well, whatever people might think they're seeing, if you hit the ball low, it puts back spin on it. If the cue ball contacts the object ball with back spin on it, it isn't going to follow. It really is that simple. There is no "magic stroke" that you can put on the cue ball that will make it follow with draw.

You can do something like the following shot where, yeah, you're hitting the cue ball low, but the right-hand english you're using is what is carrying it forward. Plus, you don't hit this ball with much speed:

START(
%HP2Z5%ID5M1%PZ7W9%WP7Z6%XZ7X0%YC0[3%ZP2Z5%[P5[0%\P6Z5%]D9V8
%^P0[4%eC0a9
)END

Or you can do the drag shot that everyone is talking about. Like I said earlier, you can stun the ball forward. I play that shot a lot when I need to move the cue ball forward. I'm not sure if it looks like I'm cueing the ball low though because I only see it from my perspective.

What's interesting is that there are so many players, even very good players, who think that all that hocus pocus shit they do with the cue is really making the cue ball react differently than if they were to just hit the cue ball in the same spot with a straight stroke. As an example, most players that I talk to seem to agree that you can move the cue ball around easier and get more engish on the ball with a loose grip. I even loosened my grip and experienced the same result and now I play with a grip that is a lot looser than the grip that I played with up until a few years ago. However, I started thinking about this and realized that it just didn't make any sense. You hit the cue ball in a certain spot, with the cue traveling at a certain speed, and you're going to get a certain result - whether your grip was tight or loose. I've even heard people try to rationalize that there was some vibration in the cue that was hindered by a tight grip that would produce a different result. I *might* be able to buy into that if it weren't for the fact that the tip is only on the cue ball for a small fraction of a second - not nearly enough time for any magical vibrations to produce some result that would be different had they not been there.

What I've come to believe about why it feels like you can get so much more action on the cue ball with a loose grip is that it FEELS like you're putting less muscular effort into the shot to propel the cue at a certain speed if you're grip and arm are loose as opposed to tight. So, that feeling of less muscular effort leads the player to the conclusion that, "hey, I just barely hit that ball and look at what the cue ball did! I got 'more action' on the cue ball." When, in reality, it just took less muscular effort to propel the cue into the cue ball at that particular speed.

I expect someone to argue against this by saying, "what about this player? he does this-or-that". My answer will be the same for any argument like this so I'll just give it now (:D): The player could get the same result without doing some crazy crap with their cue.
 
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whitewolf said:
... low english is MUCH MORE ACCURATE than high english. The effects of serve/deflection are less.
While that may appear to be what's happening, I think you need to look at this more closely. In fact, using draw with side spin will cause more swerve in general. The reason for this is illustrated pretty clearly in Byrne's "Advanced" book -- see the part about masse, which is just extreme swerve. Depending on your cue stick, using draw and the right speed may appear to make swerve and squirt vanish, but it's just getting them to cancel each other for that particular draw, side, elevation, speed and distance. It's important to understand this or you will get into trouble expecting the cancellation to happen in other situations where it can't work.
 
Egg McDogit said:
... Seriously though, I don't understand why anyone would want to shoot a drag shot when you can use stun follow. Too many things can go wrong with a drag shot.
If you can hit the cue ball straight on the vertical axis -- which is hard for most people when using draw, but suppose you can -- a drag shot is the right shot to play if the object ball is a long way away, you have to play very soft follow, and the table either has a lot of roll or is unknown. I think the shot comes up more at carom billiards than pool, and back in the old days the ivory balls were so untrustworthy (lopsided) that long, slow shots needed all the help they could get.
 
Bob Jewett said:
If you can hit the cue ball straight on the vertical axis -- which is hard for most people when using draw, but suppose you can -- a drag shot is the right shot to play if the object ball is a long way away, you have to play very soft follow, and the table either has a lot of roll or is unknown. I think the shot comes up more at carom billiards than pool, and back in the old days the ivory balls were so untrustworthy (lopsided) that long, slow shots needed all the help they could get.

If I understand correctly, are we hitting at least 90% of the object balls mass? If this is the case, the reason for drag shots which is an important shot is when you want a completely stable cue ball that deflects the least amount at object ball contact before following takes place.

I think if we had a diagram of the shot and where the cue ball is to end up, this would be much easier to discuss.
 
pete lafond said:
If I understand correctly, are we hitting at least 90% of the object balls mass? If this is the case, the reason for drag shots which is an important shot is when you want a completely stable cue ball that deflects the least amount at object ball contact before following takes place.

I think if we had a diagram of the shot and where the cue ball is to end up, this would be much easier to discuss.
I don't think a diagram is needed. The object ball is half a diamond from the foot pocket and a half ball off the side rail. The cue ball is in the kitchen and also a half ball off the same side rail. This means that the shot is fairly full, but that's not a necessary part of drag. You have to follow down to the foot rail and freeze the cue ball for position. On a good table you can afford to play the shot softly with follow. On a more typical table, if you try to play the shot at that speed, you may well hit the object ball on the wrong side and follow into the pocket. A drag shot is shot harder with draw so the cue ball is moving faster for most of the shot, but still has follow when it gets there. It may or may not be the right play depending on the table.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I don't think a diagram is needed. The object ball is half a diamond from the foot pocket and a half ball off the side rail. The cue ball is in the kitchen and also a half ball off the same side rail. This means that the shot is fairly full, but that's not a necessary part of drag. You have to follow down to the foot rail and freeze the cue ball for position. On a good table you can afford to play the shot softly with follow. On a more typical table, if you try to play the shot at that speed, you may well hit the object ball on the wrong side and follow into the pocket. A drag shot is shot harder with draw so the cue ball is moving faster for most of the shot, but still has follow when it gets there. It may or may not be the right play depending on the table.


Thanks for the explanation. I would consider this shot, drag-draw, a pretty common one. I certainly use when I do not want the cue ball to drift off. One thing in pool is not to use baby shots (slow) as this opens a whole bunch of opportunities to miss due to english, rolls on the table and particles on the table.
 
Egg McDogit said:
I was being sarcastic :p Seriously though, I don't understand why anyone would want to shoot a drag shot when you can use stun follow. Too many things can go wrong with a drag shot.

Unless I'm missing something here, play on a 12 footer sometime.

Rod
 
Jimmy M. said:
Well, whatever people might think they're seeing, if you hit the ball low, it puts back spin on it. If the cue ball contacts the object ball with back spin on it, it isn't going to follow. It really is that simple. There is no "magic stroke" that you can put on the cue ball that will make it follow with draw.


Yep I agree.


You can do something like the following shot where, yeah, you're hitting the cue ball low, but the right-hand english you're using is what is carrying it forward. Plus, you don't hit this ball with much speed:



And because of speed the c/b turns over before contact. As a side note, a little more swerve makes the angle longer. It's a finesse shot as you know.



START(
%HP2Z5%ID5M1%PZ7W9%WP7Z6%XZ7X0%YC0[3%ZP2Z5%[P5[0%\P6Z5%]D9V8
%^P0[4%eC0a9
)END

Or you can do the drag shot that everyone is talking about. Like I said earlier, you can stun the ball forward. I play that shot a lot when I need to move the cue ball forward. I'm not sure if it looks like I'm cueing the ball low though because I only see it from my perspective.


Another is a shot like this, your not likely do this with top right. Once again a bit more swerve, but with low right english, it penetrates the ball better and less c/b deflection after contact.

START(
%HO0O6%IR0D3%Pg6Z4%WC9S3%XO0Q0%YP6Q0%Zf3Z6%[P2[0%\P6Z5%]D1R5
%^X3D4%eC0a9
)END



As an example, most players that I talk to seem to agree that you can move the cue ball around easier and get more engish on the ball with a loose grip.


Many think, loose grip means you get more action.



What I've come to believe about why it feels like you can get so much more action on the cue ball with a loose grip is that it FEELS like you're putting less muscular effort into the shot to propel the cue at a certain speed if you're grip and arm are loose as opposed to tight.


Yep I'd agree that's what most think.


So, that feeling of less muscular effort leads the player to the conclusion that, "hey, I just barely hit that ball and look at what the cue ball did! I got 'more action' on the cue ball." When, in reality, it just took less muscular effort to propel the cue into the cue ball at that particular speed.


Well yes it did but that's only part of what happened.



I expect someone to argue against this by saying, "what about this player? he does this-or-that". My answer will be the same for any argument like this so I'll just give it now (:D): The player could get the same result without doing some crazy crap with their cue.


The other part is "consistant" grip pressure. Be it light or a bit heavy it should stay near the same throught the stroke. Why many feel they get more action with a loose grip is they managed to keep their grip the same as it started at address. That may be light or a bit heavy but at least they didn't choke the chicken before contact.


Rod, hey it said my message was to short, prob because I put it inside you message Jimmy. So I typed this at the bottom.
 
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