What the heck is 'Pocketing Speed'?
- Thread starter CaptainJR
- Start date
I have always heard "pocket speed" referred to as the minimum speed to get the object ball to the pocket. This is most obvious in a good one pocket match where a player is consistently lagging balls the full length of the table sometimes multiple rails and if it does not go in it just sits in the jaws. That’s is when it really makes an advantage in a game.
I think this thread has established the following.breakup said:
A. Pocket speed is a relative thing, (relative to the game, relative to each individual shot). There is no specific unit of measurement or technique, whatever gets the ball to drop
B. Pocket Speed means different things to different geographical areas.
So, there is no reason to carry on over something so subjective.
CaptainJR said:
I have not heard the term "pocket speed" ever explicitly associated with this. From my perspective, I simply would refer to this as stroking the cue ball rather than rolling it. You are completely right in that stroking the cue ball is preferable than rolling it. But, you can stroke the cue ball, and it may or may not be pocket speed. It just depends on what kind of stroke.
In my opinion, your sentence: "When I'm saying pocketing speed it is assuming I'm going to make the shot and has more to do with cue ball control." is the key. Pocketing speed by rote definition of each word is speed for pocketing balls. You say what you are reffering to has to do more with cue ball control, which is contradictory to the term pocket speed. It doesn't mean the amount of force you use in this comfortable stroke you describe isn't pocket speed (in many cases it probably is), it just means it isn't necessarily pocket speed.
Kelly
Nico said:
I agree, let me suggest a little light reading.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=17402&highlight=shortstop
cheers
thoffen said:
This is the right definition...
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CaptainJR said:
Stroke.
In my opinion what you are talking about is as simple as that. You can either roll the ball or stroke it. You may get the same results slow rolling versus stroking the cue ball with a half tip off center here or there just like you described, but stroking is the best option.
Kelly
Not to sound silly, but what exactly is the difference between rolling and stroking?. Are you referring to the weight of the stroke, a soft hit versus a hard hit?. I'm just confused by your choice of wording.Kelly_Guy said:
Stroke means moving the cue forward/backward through your cueing motion. I assume by "rolling" you mean to say "soft rolling"?.
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What I was thinking doesn't seem to be what others are, so I'll say OK to that. One thing I will say is this. We are not talking one pocket here. One pocket is a different animal and pocketing speed is a much more general term. So one thing that I'm very sure of is that it is not getting the object ball just to the hole with barely enough speed to fall in. As in part of what I said, it definitely has to do with avoiding table roll.
I am rather curious as to how much geography has to do with this though.
I am rather curious as to how much geography has to do with this though.
Nico said:
The statement "Every time you make a shot...the cueball is rolling" is definitely not true! When you shoot a shot, and you just slow roll the cue ball, the cue ball is rolling, and after it hits the object ball (straight in shot as an example), it will continue to roll forward after the collision. How far forward is directly related to how much rolling momentum it has.
If you shoot a straight in shot, and you want the cueball to stop right at the point of collision, and you slow roll the cue ball, it isn't going to stop. You can hit it really softly, and it might not roll very far, but it isn't going to stop. If you however put a good stroke on the cueball with center ball, or perhaps a slight amount of bottom english, the cueball will be sliding along the cloth, NOT rolling. Once it hits the object ball straight on, all of the sliding momentum is transferred to the object ball, and the cue ball stops. If you stroke the cue ball with bottom english, the cue ball is still NOT rolling. It is sliding along the cloth, while spinning at the same time in a reverse motion. When the cue ball comes into contact with the object ball, the sliding momentum is transferred to the object and it stops, the reverse spin grabs the cloth, and then starts rolling backwards.
For the example the original poster described, "If I use this speed and use a quarter tip up I know exactly how far the cue ball is going to go after contact." he is putting a good stroke on the ball, it is mostly sliding along the felt with just a small amount of top english or rolling momentum. He can control that amount (by placement of the tip and the stroke itself) so that he knows how far the cue ball will roll after the hit, which is easier to consistently do than slow rolling the cue ball and trying to make the cue ball roll the same amount after the hit.
I hope this helps.
Kelly
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Nope, but thanks for the spin lecture. I removed the part about the cueball rolling when I realized that you would probably take it far too seriously, (as is the case). I guess you didn't get a chance to notice that while you were typing up that essay.Kelly_Guy said:
Problem is, you are using the word 'stroke' incorrectly. Every time you hit the cueball with a pool cue you are stroking the cueball, (unless you are jabbing or poking it of course). Stroke is in reference to the movement of a pool cue, not the cueball.
Also, you are referring to controlling the cueball, but we have already established long ago in this thread that "pocket speed" has nothing to do with controlling the cueball.
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Nico said:
This discussion was answering his 2nd question about what someone would call what he was describing. I was not describing pocket speed, I was answering his 2nd question.
To refute my post you point to a definition of stroke as anytime you are moving a cue to execute a shot, then you say "every time you hit the cueball with a pool cue you are stroking the cueball (unless you are jabbing or poking it of course)." Are you not moving the cue when you jab or poke?
If you can accept that jabbing or poking isn't stroking the cue ball (I am sure you have heard "don't poke it, stroke it") then why can't you accept the same thing for simply slow rolling the cueball?
Kelly
Snapshot9 said:
Is that the same as hitting it with stop follow draw??
My understanding of pocket speed is that it is just enough speed to pocket the ball. A lot of times it is used not only to increase chances of making the ball, but as a tactic in case it misses, as it will leave it in front of the hole as in 1-pocket or 8-ball. If someone says you need to hit it pocket speed, you would hit it just hard enough to block the hole if you hit it bad, but it didn't fall.
CaptainJR said:
I'd call it your 'comfort speed' or perhaps your 'natural speed'. I tend to agree that everyone has one. I also find that when that speed gets confused all youknowwhat breaks out in my game, no confidence and definately no stroke
Dave
I don't believe I have ever heard the exact phrase "pocketing speed". But "pocket speed" comes up all the time in One Pocket, and in that context it definitely means just enough speed to reach your hole -- because One Pocket is like horseshoes & hand grenades: close does count 
In fact, "pocket speed" is one of the key skills to learn in One Pocket, one that 9-Ball and Bank Pool players might especially find foreign
In fact, "pocket speed" is one of the key skills to learn in One Pocket, one that 9-Ball and Bank Pool players might especially find foreign
When I say good pocket speed, I'm refering to using just the correct amount of speed to pocket the ball, and execute what else is needed to reach your objective, and nothing more then that. Usually this is on a slow roll or medium speed shot, altough I guess it could be seen in others, but people tend to put that in the "good stroke" catagory as the speed increases from what I have seen.
On the stroke, I tend to think if i'm not stroking, then I have a hesitation in My stroke, but That could still be considered a stroke, just not a very good one , so they are all strokes to me, and I have more of them then I even realize. I could'nt possibly name them all, and My terminology certainly would'nt fall in line with others, because basically I named them for My own use, so alot of people would see them differently. I've used all kinds of words like- open field stroke, stun, jab, slow roll, draw, deep draw, forward draw, drift, slide, etc, so most people would not aggree with the terms I use. They are usually used very generally by most people from what I see, so most people usually have their own versions or own definitions. I have no opinion on the subject, because I usually get the jist of what someone trying to explain anyway.
Greg
On the stroke, I tend to think if i'm not stroking, then I have a hesitation in My stroke, but That could still be considered a stroke, just not a very good one
, so they are all strokes to me, and I have more of them then I even realize. I could'nt possibly name them all, and My terminology certainly would'nt fall in line with others, because basically I named them for My own use, so alot of people would see them differently. I've used all kinds of words like- open field stroke, stun, jab, slow roll, draw, deep draw, forward draw, drift, slide, etc, so most people would not aggree with the terms I use. They are usually used very generally by most people from what I see, so most people usually have their own versions or own definitions. I have no opinion on the subject, because I usually get the jist of what someone trying to explain anyway.Greg
1pocket said:I don't believe I have ever heard the exact phrase "pocketing speed". But "pocket speed" comes up all the time in One Pocket, and in that context it definitely means just enough speed to reach your hole -- because One Pocket is like horseshoes & hand grenades: close does count
In fact, "pocket speed" is one of the key skills to learn in One Pocket, one that 9-Ball and Bank Pool players might especially find foreign
DaveK said:I'd call it your 'comfort speed' or perhaps your 'natural speed'. I tend to agree that everyone has one. I also find that when that speed gets confused all youknowwhat breaks out in my game, no confidence and definately no stroke
Dave
I think 1pocket and DaveK hit on the confusion I seemed to have caused here. Two terms "Pocketing Speed" and "Pocket speed" The first 'pocket(ing) speed' being more a personal thing and the second 'pocket speed' being a speed that gives the best chance of a ball dropping or plugging the hole.