snookered_again
Well-known member
I'll admit that sometimes this stuff can seem overwhelming to understand properly. If I can put things into my own words, sometimes it helps me distill it better. so I will, and you are welcome to correct me if im off track here. ...
- if a ball has to travel some 10 - 12 feet to reach the OB and the result wanted is to stun the ball, it needs to start off as a backspin so that the traction it gets on the cloth is such that the backspin is counteracted and becomes "stun" when it reaches the other ball. You can vary that by how much backspin is applied to result in a hit and roll forward, and being able to hit and roll forward by a controlled amount is an acquired skill. making it backspin of course is just more or less backspin..
a stun seems to need a certain minimum ball speed and just how much is a learned concept. for some reason I can hit a shot really hard and stun it buthere is a place where too light of a shot won't reliably stun a ball..
I think that's probably why its common to see a guy really smack a straight on shot sitting right on the ledge.. It wasn't a challenging shot at all, but because a hard hit is not likely to roll forward, the speed of the shot overcame any cloth resistance. the high speed shot actually reduced the chance of following it in. some backspin might help with shape on the next..
when you throw side spin and throw into the equation it further complicates things as you have the combined effect. basically when spinning balls collide it changes the trajectory of both balls. some try to use gearing to help not induce spin into the OB.
on a thin cut shot the spin of the cb also influences the speed , hence distance of the OB.
as an example, in some cases you may not want the CB to travel very far but want enough speed in the OB to just reach the pocket.. sidespin can give the OB a little extra kick on a cutshot. . in that case instead of increasing the hardness of the shot to drive the OB you are also increasing spin so that you don't need to shoot the CB as fast. the reverse is true but its not usually an issue to shoot harder, the OB will just be travelling faster when it pockets.
spin induced throw is the difference in trajectory of the OB caused by spin.
squirt is easily seen when you spin a ball and find that due to the spin the ball has traveled in somehat of an arc or on a slightly different trajectory.. this becomes more important with distance as it needs to be compensated for. if you spin a ball and it travels far you will be off your target if you don't master how to control the squirt, Its a thing I'm observing a bit separately and need to improve upon.
I believe squirt is also affected by the CB's speed. youd probably notice it less on a harder shot. also spin might not take the same effect when you consider transfer of spin if the ball is going too fast. maybe a slower impact causes the transfer of ball spin to have more effect?
swerve is similar, commonly used intentionally and on it's own when hooked to steer around another ball..
what the pros do right that I struggle with is to put all this together in a controllable and predicatble way.
I think its common that people who are developing need to put these basics into play and use them and make observations.. The understandings of the physics are a part of it but it's a lot to grasp quickly and even if you are quick at learnign the concepts, controlling it to your advantge is an aquired skill. I think some learn how the balls react without fully understanding the concepts, but if you can manage to wrap your head around all this from a conceptual vewpoint then can make better observations, maybe learn faster.
I think for me I need o grasp a little practice a little and do a bit of both to slowly master both the skills and the technique as one is useless without the other. no one shoots well if they are totally confused and uncomfortable.
for me a bit of learning, trying to understand the physics has to come in steps and has to be intertwined with practice until the concepts can be seen more in play.. being totally confused about several concepts at once is a bit counterproductive.
I think the most basic thing about spin is that when the CB hits it's first rail it can drastically change it's trajectory. you really can't control the CB unless you can control that fairly reliably. I find myself trying to predict the CB stop point and try and to make note of why Im off to try to correct as I go.
its helpful to try to observe what went wrong in order to improve but its quite easy to say aww drats I miss and just walk away, just that moment of retaining info from each shot is helpful for learning so I try to be a little more perceptive just a moment after the shot. If I didnt make it , ok fine but why? how would I correct that If I were given the same shot again? If I can ask myself that after each shot I miss it helps me. Its really easy not to critique myself, or even to turn the dissapointment inward.. and confidence is a big part of a guys game.. so I htink you can go too far down that road and become frustrated instead of simply learning and giving the failure a nod.
a few months back someone commented I was spinning my balls too much or too often and that withough mastering it, well I'd probably make more by hitting everything centerball and that most shots should be centerball.
good point i thought so how do I learn this if I dont try.. ?
I think I threw myself off for a while by experimenting and trying to learn, perhaps at the expense of loosing more games.. maybe some can be learned in practice sessions but I don't feel bad about experimenting a bit. I felt that if I were to just try to hit everythign centerball I'd never learn these concepts.. maybe one way of learing is to do a bit too much and see the effect it has.. at home when I play my lady, its less competitive so I can try more experimants as I play..
maybe i need to keep it to a reasonable degree if playing with a partner because I will basically then make him sit and wait if I fool around too much.. but I get bored fast doing drills.. so for me it's a continuous trade off between experimenting and winning more..
I think reducing my shot speed, taking a little more time on the backdraw and really trying to get my speed and forward or backspin closer helps a lot in gaining shape and running longer sequences.
There is always randomness in pool even for the pros, But If balls are bouncing all over the place then I'm not really learning except maybe starting to recognise patterns. I see quite often where a bit harder side bank can result in two banks side, or a corner shot can result in the ball potting in the opposing corner.. so sometimes shooting a bit harder help give you that second chance. - if you are not playing call shots. out of control balls also result in more scratches.
I think there is an effect that's at play here,, lets say you want to sink a ball, Its at a distance and you want to bounce off that ball and go just a little further for position..
you can start a ball off with some backspin, it travels half way across the table then it gains enough traction , there is a point in it's travel where the spin is motionless, it is used up,, at the point of impact it is then rolling forward but at less speed than it normally would if hit centerball,,
so what you are doing there in effect is playing a shot with a bit of "roll forward" but to do that, the ball actually left the cue with some backspin.. it was predictable that it would loose all its backspin and have some foreward spin at the moment of impact.. The speed of the cloth comes into play here, a pro will of course have better control of it than a mere mortal. he's also playing consistently on pretty new cloth. the cloth will vary a lot more if you are playing in different locations.. They dont put brand new cloth on as they roll up the red carpet for you like they may for a pro. Most of us live in reality.
A bank shot like a side bank will play more true ( angle of incidence matches angle of reflection) at a slow speed, hit too hard what happens is that the angle of reflection becomes closer to 90 degrees from the rail because the rubber just has it's limits on what it can do.. .. maybe some spin can help, or maybe its a matter of judging how hard to shoot and try not to shoot so hard, so this becomes less of a problem..
snooker rails and pool rails may also have some differences in this reguard. Im not sure what the differences are other than whats physical and obvious but there are two basic designs and they are quitte different for good reason. I think both types have that effect though where a realy hard side bank can result in the ball hitting the cushion at an angle and coming straight back out..
maybe a bit of spin on a faster shot helps keep the angle more consistent to what you'd expect.. perhaps some gearing can help the CB transfer spin so the OB doesn't come straight back out? maybe if that's controllable then the bank shot could be at a higher speed ? ... I have lots to learn for sure.
- if a ball has to travel some 10 - 12 feet to reach the OB and the result wanted is to stun the ball, it needs to start off as a backspin so that the traction it gets on the cloth is such that the backspin is counteracted and becomes "stun" when it reaches the other ball. You can vary that by how much backspin is applied to result in a hit and roll forward, and being able to hit and roll forward by a controlled amount is an acquired skill. making it backspin of course is just more or less backspin..
a stun seems to need a certain minimum ball speed and just how much is a learned concept. for some reason I can hit a shot really hard and stun it buthere is a place where too light of a shot won't reliably stun a ball..
I think that's probably why its common to see a guy really smack a straight on shot sitting right on the ledge.. It wasn't a challenging shot at all, but because a hard hit is not likely to roll forward, the speed of the shot overcame any cloth resistance. the high speed shot actually reduced the chance of following it in. some backspin might help with shape on the next..
when you throw side spin and throw into the equation it further complicates things as you have the combined effect. basically when spinning balls collide it changes the trajectory of both balls. some try to use gearing to help not induce spin into the OB.
on a thin cut shot the spin of the cb also influences the speed , hence distance of the OB.
as an example, in some cases you may not want the CB to travel very far but want enough speed in the OB to just reach the pocket.. sidespin can give the OB a little extra kick on a cutshot. . in that case instead of increasing the hardness of the shot to drive the OB you are also increasing spin so that you don't need to shoot the CB as fast. the reverse is true but its not usually an issue to shoot harder, the OB will just be travelling faster when it pockets.
spin induced throw is the difference in trajectory of the OB caused by spin.
squirt is easily seen when you spin a ball and find that due to the spin the ball has traveled in somehat of an arc or on a slightly different trajectory.. this becomes more important with distance as it needs to be compensated for. if you spin a ball and it travels far you will be off your target if you don't master how to control the squirt, Its a thing I'm observing a bit separately and need to improve upon.
I believe squirt is also affected by the CB's speed. youd probably notice it less on a harder shot. also spin might not take the same effect when you consider transfer of spin if the ball is going too fast. maybe a slower impact causes the transfer of ball spin to have more effect?
swerve is similar, commonly used intentionally and on it's own when hooked to steer around another ball..
what the pros do right that I struggle with is to put all this together in a controllable and predicatble way.
I think its common that people who are developing need to put these basics into play and use them and make observations.. The understandings of the physics are a part of it but it's a lot to grasp quickly and even if you are quick at learnign the concepts, controlling it to your advantge is an aquired skill. I think some learn how the balls react without fully understanding the concepts, but if you can manage to wrap your head around all this from a conceptual vewpoint then can make better observations, maybe learn faster.
I think for me I need o grasp a little practice a little and do a bit of both to slowly master both the skills and the technique as one is useless without the other. no one shoots well if they are totally confused and uncomfortable.
for me a bit of learning, trying to understand the physics has to come in steps and has to be intertwined with practice until the concepts can be seen more in play.. being totally confused about several concepts at once is a bit counterproductive.
I think the most basic thing about spin is that when the CB hits it's first rail it can drastically change it's trajectory. you really can't control the CB unless you can control that fairly reliably. I find myself trying to predict the CB stop point and try and to make note of why Im off to try to correct as I go.
its helpful to try to observe what went wrong in order to improve but its quite easy to say aww drats I miss and just walk away, just that moment of retaining info from each shot is helpful for learning so I try to be a little more perceptive just a moment after the shot. If I didnt make it , ok fine but why? how would I correct that If I were given the same shot again? If I can ask myself that after each shot I miss it helps me. Its really easy not to critique myself, or even to turn the dissapointment inward.. and confidence is a big part of a guys game.. so I htink you can go too far down that road and become frustrated instead of simply learning and giving the failure a nod.
a few months back someone commented I was spinning my balls too much or too often and that withough mastering it, well I'd probably make more by hitting everything centerball and that most shots should be centerball.
good point i thought so how do I learn this if I dont try.. ?
I think I threw myself off for a while by experimenting and trying to learn, perhaps at the expense of loosing more games.. maybe some can be learned in practice sessions but I don't feel bad about experimenting a bit. I felt that if I were to just try to hit everythign centerball I'd never learn these concepts.. maybe one way of learing is to do a bit too much and see the effect it has.. at home when I play my lady, its less competitive so I can try more experimants as I play..
maybe i need to keep it to a reasonable degree if playing with a partner because I will basically then make him sit and wait if I fool around too much.. but I get bored fast doing drills.. so for me it's a continuous trade off between experimenting and winning more..
I think reducing my shot speed, taking a little more time on the backdraw and really trying to get my speed and forward or backspin closer helps a lot in gaining shape and running longer sequences.
There is always randomness in pool even for the pros, But If balls are bouncing all over the place then I'm not really learning except maybe starting to recognise patterns. I see quite often where a bit harder side bank can result in two banks side, or a corner shot can result in the ball potting in the opposing corner.. so sometimes shooting a bit harder help give you that second chance. - if you are not playing call shots. out of control balls also result in more scratches.
I think there is an effect that's at play here,, lets say you want to sink a ball, Its at a distance and you want to bounce off that ball and go just a little further for position..
you can start a ball off with some backspin, it travels half way across the table then it gains enough traction , there is a point in it's travel where the spin is motionless, it is used up,, at the point of impact it is then rolling forward but at less speed than it normally would if hit centerball,,
so what you are doing there in effect is playing a shot with a bit of "roll forward" but to do that, the ball actually left the cue with some backspin.. it was predictable that it would loose all its backspin and have some foreward spin at the moment of impact.. The speed of the cloth comes into play here, a pro will of course have better control of it than a mere mortal. he's also playing consistently on pretty new cloth. the cloth will vary a lot more if you are playing in different locations.. They dont put brand new cloth on as they roll up the red carpet for you like they may for a pro. Most of us live in reality.
A bank shot like a side bank will play more true ( angle of incidence matches angle of reflection) at a slow speed, hit too hard what happens is that the angle of reflection becomes closer to 90 degrees from the rail because the rubber just has it's limits on what it can do.. .. maybe some spin can help, or maybe its a matter of judging how hard to shoot and try not to shoot so hard, so this becomes less of a problem..
snooker rails and pool rails may also have some differences in this reguard. Im not sure what the differences are other than whats physical and obvious but there are two basic designs and they are quitte different for good reason. I think both types have that effect though where a realy hard side bank can result in the ball hitting the cushion at an angle and coming straight back out..
maybe a bit of spin on a faster shot helps keep the angle more consistent to what you'd expect.. perhaps some gearing can help the CB transfer spin so the OB doesn't come straight back out? maybe if that's controllable then the bank shot could be at a higher speed ? ... I have lots to learn for sure.
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