What's Good About A Good Stroke?

[Slasher]

I've tried to cope with that tendency by developing a grip that doesn't change when it tightens - essentially gripping the cue only at two "pivot" points on the left and right side (but letting the fingers wrap underneath for a sense of security).

pj
chgo

This is what I have been working on, keeping the other three fingers out of the equation all the way through the stroke.
I think this is an area that needs clarifying regarding tightening the grip or closing the grip, if you are only gripping with the thumb and forefinger it's probably easier to tighten without pulling the cue off line, if you close the other fingers you will.

 

[TheThaiger]

I did not employ any extra wrist or snap here. https://vimeo.com/51974494
Only a little more flex required on the end of the backswing, the key is generating the cue speed with the relaxed arm but keeping a tight enough grip so as not to chuck the cue onto the next table and still get an acurate strike on the CB :grin:
I practiced this shot enough to bring me to the conclusion that wrist action did not contribute to power, however a relaxed grip and arm did.

Can't help feeling you were a little unlucky where the white finished with that shot. :grin:

Terrific cueing. I suppose many around here won't know how difficult that is to do on a snooker table, but I do. I'm usually happy just to stop it at that distance. Impressive how the tip ends up on the baize, and not somewhere near the ceiling, like on mine.

What cue do you use?

 

[Slasher]

Can't help feeling you were a little unlucky where the white finished with that shot. :grin:

Terrific cueing. I suppose many around here won't know how difficult that is to do on a snooker table, but I do. I'm usually happy just to stop it at that distance. Impressive how the tip ends up on the baize, and not somewhere near the ceiling, like on mine.

What cue do you use?

Yes 18ft is a long way
I built my own cue, it's a maple/ebony full splice with a radial laminated shaft 9.5mm, 19oz <----this helps

 

[Patrick Johnson]

if you are only gripping with the thumb and forefinger it's probably easier to tighten without pulling the cue off line

Especially if you're not gripping all the way around the cue, but only on the sides. I think it's mostly the fingers pulling the butt up into the palm that pulls the cue offline (or, worst case, the palm curling up toward the wrist).

pj
chgo

 

[swest]

I built my own cue, it's a maple/ebony full splice with a radial laminated shaft 9.5mm, 19oz <----this helps

Very impressive.

 

[JoeyA]

I did not employ any extra wrist or snap here. https://vimeo.com/51974494
Only a little more flex required on the end of the backswing, the key is generating the cue speed with the relaxed arm but keeping a tight enough grip so as not to chuck the cue onto the next table and still get an acurate strike on the CB :grin:
I practiced this shot enough to bring me to the conclusion that wrist action did not contribute to power, however a relaxed grip and arm did.

There are many others who would agree with you that wrist action does not contribute to power and probably an equal number who will swear that it does. :grin:

 

[sfleinen]

I don't believe normal wrist motion converts the pendulum arc to a straight line.

pj
chgo

Not the wrist, the grip allows the cue to articulate by opening the back fingers.

OK, but that just allows the cue to move in its pendulum arc without interference from the hand. I believe the only way to convert the forearm's pendulum motion to a straight line is to move the elbow up and down - i.e., the "piston" stroke.

pj <- sometimes known as the "broken elbow" stroke
chgo

Pat:

While the opening/closing of the hand won't completely negate the arc effect of a pinned elbow, it *does* soften the arc.

As Lance mentions, the articulation of the back/rear fingers opening and closing as the cue is pulled back and pushed forward, respectively, prevents the hand itself from "participating in" (or "adding to") the arc movement.

Assuming a pinned wrist for the moment:

1. As the cue is pulled back, the hand position "tilts" with the arc movement, so the rear fingers become more prominent against/supporting the weight of the cue. This means there's more "lift" provided by the back fingers, which would ordinarily help raise the butt of the cue.

2. As the cue is then moved forward, the hand "tilts" in the opposite direction such that pressure is relieved from the rear fingers, and increasing emphasis is placed on the front fingers. So if the fingers don't move at all, they themselves will add to the "lift" and "lowering" (during pull-back and delivery, respectively) of the cue butt during the normal pendulum arc.

By articulating the grip -- opening it on pull-back, and closing it on delivery, the arc is "softened." This is enhanced by the type of grip that most snooker players use -- the "pincer clamp." That is, the index finger and thumb are the "pincer" part of the hand, while the remaining fingers are the cradle. By clamping the cue with the pincers, and opening/closing the cradle fingers, the arc is softened.

Some players will add to this "arc softening" by either A.) adding a bit of elbow drop or "bounce"; B.) manipulating the wrist to soften what remains of the arc.

Judd Trump is an example of a player that does both -- you can see in his cue delivery that, in soft strokes (only!), he'll add a bit of noticeable elbow drop or "bounce" -- what I like to refer to as a "scissor stroke." But he then softens/absorbs the rest of the arc by manipulating his wrist. In fact, that's where most of the "arc softening" occurs, because in power shots, he pretty much pins the elbow.

Notice the soft shot at 2:10 (linkcheat added, to take you right to the shot):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZA67elaLPI#t=2m10s

Notice the soft "bounce" in the elbow -- that "scissor stroke" I mentioned.

Now take a look at some power shots (linkcheats added):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KZA67elaLPI#t=9m50s
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KZA67elaLPI#t=12m50s
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KZA67elaLPI#t=13m10s

Yes, when he's pulling the cue back, there is a hint of a scissor stroke (i.e. the elbow drops just a bit as he's extending his arm during the pull-back), but when he snaps his biceps closed, that elbow doesn't move -- nor do any of the other major arm joints.

There's a lot going on to absorb the arc effect of the pendulum, but those built-in absorption techniques don't mean this isn't a pendulum stroke!

Compare Judd's cueing action to many other big-name players, and you'll see that Judd's elbow is remarkably fixed in comparison.

-Sean

 

[Slasher]

There are many others who would agree with you that wrist action does not contribute to power and probably an equal number who will swear that it does. :grin:

Agreed, I just think the relaxed arm is a product of a relaxed wrist/grip giving the illusion that the wrist is contributing to the cue speed. It's very difficult to separate and control all the muscles/tendons etc individually in the arm.

 

[duckie]

cte sucks !!!!!!!

 

[JoeyA]

This is what I have been working on, keeping the other three fingers out of the equation all the way through the stroke.
I think this is an area that needs clarifying regarding tightening the grip or closing the grip, if you are only gripping with the thumb and forefinger it's probably easier to tighten without pulling the cue off line, if you close the other fingers you will.

I also noticed that your head moved upward on the final stroke (guess you were trying to get your chin out of the way of the cue) but that you still provided a nice follow through and not an exaggerated follow through. Speed, location of tip, angle of cue.

(Still, those little ole light balls have to be easy to draw 18 feet. :grin

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yes 18ft is a long way
I built my own cue, it's a maple/ebony full splice with a radial laminated shaft 9.5mm, 19oz <----this helps

What would it cost to have a 'duplicate' made with an 11mm tip & a conical/Europenan taper that weighs 17 to 18 oz. to be made & shipped to Louisiana, USA? If it's cost effective I'll be you're rep in the US.

Best Regards,

 

[TheThaiger]

I also noticed that your head moved upward on the final stroke (guess you were trying to get your chin out of the way of the cue) but that you still provided a nice follow through and not an exaggerated follow through. Speed, location of tip, angle of cue.

(Still, those little ole light balls have to be easy to draw 18 feet. :grin

The draw is not the difficult part. Cueing straight enough to draw it 9 feet straight back AND pot the ball is the hard bit.

 

[TheThaiger]

What would it cost to have a 'duplicate' made with an 11mm tip & a conical/Europenan taper that weighs 17 to 18 oz. to be made & shipped to Louisiana, USA? If it's cost effective I'll be you're rep in the US.

Best Regards,

:grin:

Can i be the first to say, it's the Indian not the arrow?

 

[ENGLISH!]

post 349

Some good points Mr. Duckie. Is your name Greg?

 

[Slasher]

Drawing is also a good remind that one size doesn't fit all. Not everyone is gonna have the same distances between pivot points. This will affect how someone uses their pivots points.

It's true, there is a lot going on that we cannot see or quantify, I think the brain, muscles and fine motor skills of humans are quite astonishing and capable of incredible things. I once saw a fellow play a grand piano with his toes cause he had no arms, we are simply amazing sometimes, we just don't realize it

 

[Patrick Johnson]

There are many others who would agree with you that wrist action does not contribute to power and probably an equal number who will swear that it does. :grin:

To be clear, I agree it can contribute some speed/power - just not as much as many think.

My original comment about wrist action was just that tennis and golf aren't good analogies for how much power the wrist can add to a pool stroke.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Pat:

While the opening/closing of the hand won't completely negate the arc effect of a pinned elbow, it *does* soften the arc.

I don't agree. [EDIT: ...unless you mean it softens it compared to the all-finger grip.]

As Lance mentions, the articulation of the back/rear fingers opening and closing as the cue is pulled back and pushed forward, respectively, prevents the hand itself from "participating in" (or "adding to") the arc movement.

I do agree with this - it's not the same as your first statement. [See first EDIT.]

By articulating the grip -- opening it on pull-back, and closing it on delivery, the arc is "softened." This is enhanced by the type of grip that most snooker players use -- the "pincer clamp." That is, the index finger and thumb are the "pincer" part of the hand, while the remaining fingers are the cradle. By clamping the cue with the pincers, and opening/closing the cradle fingers, the arc is softened.

This is the grip that I use, and it doesn't "soften" the arc - it simply doesn't add to it. [See first EDIT.]

I agree with your description of Judd's stroke, except I think his elbow moves down and then up, like many snooker players (only less than most, as you say). The wrist tuck at the finish is common to many players who drop their elbows when they power the cue ball - I don't think it's to keep the cue level as much as to avoid lifting the shaft out of the bridge (kind of a similar objective).

pj
chgo

 

[sfleinen]

If your bored you can watch my stroke here in this century break, I was trying to work out a slight L to R that crept in and after watching the vid I noticed a couple things like a slight lifting on some shots and gripping to tight. Bad habits have a way of sneaking up on you but the change of grip has all but fixed the issue.

And your right that CJ's approach is way different

https://vimeo.com/51970267

Very nicely done, Lance! Your "rebuild" looks great -- although I have nothing to compare it against. But a very nice pendulum stroke, cueing, and century break! Too bad about the yellow -- methinks you took your eye off the ball...

-Sean

 

[Neil]

..........Couple of things. To me, the stroke is the length the cue goes past where the CB was. Cue delivery is the whole process. Whole process being placing the bridge, getting set in your shooting position, warm up strokes, then final stroke. A level cue has nothing with being parallel to the table, but that the cue tip does deviate from the center line of the cue when in motion. .......

Naji said the same thing the other day. I don't know where you guys are getting this from. The stroke is the pullback, and then the forward motion of the cue. What you are saying is the stroke is called the follow-through. As a point, you even call it a "warm-up stroke". Who does warm-ups on the follow-through if that is the only part that is the stroke? Just the fact that it is called a warm-up stroke should make you realize that it is the motion of the cue, not just the follow-through that is called the stroke.

 

[ENGLISH!]

It's true, there is a lot going on that we cannot see or quantify, I think the brain, muscles and fine motor skills of humans are quite astonishing and capable of incredible things. I once saw a fellow play a grand piano with his toes cause he had no arms, we are simply amazing sometimes, we just don't realize it

Tap! Tap! Tap!

I whole heartedly concur.