whats the call?

[grindz]

The moral of the story is.....

when someone does this.... ask them which it is that they are going to do before they shoot, and get the referee to rule beforehand if there is a dispute. Makes for a better resolution IMO. Let the play determine the winner... not some rule sharking.

td

 

[mjantti]

EDIT: Except, apparently the BCAPL rules (thanks, Buddy Eick). The WPA World Standardized Rules don't say the same thing. Here's what I found there:

"1.6 Standard Call Shot
In games in which the shooter is required to call shots, the intended ball and pocket must be indicated for each shot if they are not obvious. Details of the shot, such as cushions struck or other balls contacted or pocketed are irrelevant. Only one ball may be called on each shot. For a called shot to count, the referee must be satisfied that the intended shot was made, so if there is any chance of confusion, e.g. with bank, combination and similar shots, the shooter should indicate the ball and pocket. If the referee or opponent is unsure of the shot to be played, he may ask for a call. In call shot games, the shooter may choose to call ?safety? instead of a ball and pocket, and then play passes to the opponent at the end of the shot. Whether balls are being spotted after safeties depends on the rules of the particular game."

This might suggest you can't do both in the same shot, but it isn't definitively clear like the BCAPL rules.

I haven't seen anything in the VNEA rules quoted here so far that clearly prohibits calling a ball and a safety together. Without a clear rule or regulation (like the BCAPL rule) I think it could logically be determined either way by a referee.

Hmm, I didn't see this reply earlier. Basically we agree on everything except that in your opinion the rule 1.6 isn't clear on whether you can call both or not. Imho it says that you cannot call a safety and a ball&pocket. What I agree with you 100% is the last sentence that the referee could call it either way. I just told my view on the subject and how I would call it.

Patrick hardly ever puts a foot wrong on these rule issues... :smile:

 

[mjantti]

when someone does this.... ask them which it is that they are going to do before they shoot, and get the referee to rule beforehand if there is a dispute. Makes for a better resolution IMO. Let the play determine the winner... not some rule sharking.

td

Of course but we are discussing the issue after the shot has been played. Many players call their shots while they are already shooting their practice shots. And even some times the referee realizes too late that it wasn't clear what the call was. That's why I'd choose the latter call if I'd make the mistake of not stopping the player before the shot was taken. Remember, the responsibility is on the player in the end, not on the referee. And in this case the player makes a much greater mistake than the referee.

 

[Vinnie]

This thread is very interesting to me because both routes can be argued.

The player is calling "safe" which means that he is intending to pocket a ball, but at the same time give up his turn. One set of rules seem to indicate that by doing so, the player has relinquished his "rights" or "ownership" of the ball pocketed. This is obscured by the fact that he still gets counted for the ball because in 8-ball, no illegally pocketed balls are ever spotted. So, along this line of thought, the table would still be open because he gave up his rights to the pocketed ball. The other set of rules (VNEA) seem to indicate that even if you call a safe, you still legally made a ball and it counts for you. You just want to give up your right to shoot the next shot.

The question is whether or not the player has an unfair advantage by playing the rule either way. Let's say the table layout is such that solids look great but his only shot on a solid is on the 6 and there is no way to get shape from it. Would it be an unfair advantage for him to be able to basically "claim" solids without having to take another shot? Does he have the right to claim solids because he legally shot and made the ball, regardless of who shoots next?

In 14.1, the rule is simple. All balls made on a "safety" are spotted and do not count towards the player's score. The problem with 8-ball is that it is scored differently and balls are never spotted. It seems to me that most rules indicate that playing a safety means sacrificing a score for a ball in order to avoid the mandatory rule that a player must shoot again after legally shooting and making a ball.

Perhaps if we start spotting balls in 8-ball it would be more clear.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

railfirst:
Jesus PJ

I thought we agreed you'd only call me Jesus in private.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

mjantti:
What I agree with you 100% is the last sentence that the referee could call it either way.

Yes, that's my whole point. If a referee could call it either way, then there is no clear rule about it.

This particular rule isn't a big deal to me - if the situation ever comes up for me I'll be content with either call. If I was asked to call it in a non-BCAPL match I'd allow both the safety and the called ball because I can't think of any harm it does, but there might be something I haven't thought of.

Whatever the call should be, I think it's useful to examine what constitutes a clear rule and what doesn't, especially on a public forum like this where many players and even some referees and rules writers might benefit.

pj
chgo

 

[grindz]

ANYTHING can be argued....

This thread is very interesting to me because both routes can be argued.

The player is calling "safe" which means that he is intending to pocket a ball, but at the same time give up his turn. One set of rules seem to indicate that by doing so, the player has relinquished his "rights" or "ownership" of the ball pocketed. This is obscured by the fact that he still gets counted for the ball because in 8-ball, no illegally pocketed balls are ever spotted. So, along this line of thought, the table would still be open because he gave up his rights to the pocketed ball. The other set of rules (VNEA) seem to indicate that even if you call a safe, you still legally made a ball and it counts for you. You just want to give up your right to shoot the next shot.

The question is whether or not the player has an unfair advantage by playing the rule either way. Let's say the table layout is such that solids look great but his only shot on a solid is on the 6 and there is no way to get shape from it. Would it be an unfair advantage for him to be able to basically "claim" solids without having to take another shot? Does he have the right to claim solids because he legally shot and made the ball, regardless of who shoots next?

In 14.1, the rule is simple. All balls made on a "safety" are spotted and do not count towards the player's score. The problem with 8-ball is that it is scored differently and balls are never spotted. It seems to me that most rules indicate that playing a safety means sacrificing a score for a ball in order to avoid the mandatory rule that a player must shoot again after legally shooting and making a ball.

Perhaps if we start spotting balls in 8-ball it would be more clear.

just ask a lawyer......

But I tend to follow the saying that I heard General Norman Schwartzkof said...............RULES are for FOOLS.............. common sense should rule, but many lack that.

I have no doubt that if I poured over the rules, that I could find multiple situations to exploit an ommission governing that instance. Common sense, courtesy, and good sportsmanship dictate to me to not do so. THAT is the only, or at least the preeminent rule that all should go by. JMNSHO

From what has been said, your assessment is spot on. It's too bad that this (calling both shots) interpretation has been allowed to happen or exist.




td

 

[Fred]

I've read this entire thread and I am still confused.

Under VNEA rules, with an open table, can you claim a group and play a safety with the same shot?


Justin Nuder

 

[Vinnie]

I've read this entire thread and I am still confused.

Under VNEA rules, with an open table, can you claim a group and play a safety with the same shot?


Justin Nuder

According to a previous post, Yes. Someone who was at the VNEA nationals said that the head refs ruled it that way.