Whats the deal with shaft pilots???

[spliced]

I'm trying to figure out why modern day shaft pilots are not made the same way as they used to be when Rambow invented them for Brunswick. The pilots of yesteryear were long (enough to touch the bottom of the hole, and wide(enough to make contact with the sides of the joint collar. Nowadays it is a tiny brass nipple sticking out without little if any contact with the collar, and leaving a big empty gap in the middle of the joint. What is the point in even having a pilot if it doesnt contact anything?? Is there even a point to having a pilot? Whats the deal??

Check out the pics of what I'm talking about.

Thanks
Ian

 

[rhncue]

I'm trying to figure out why modern day shaft pilots are not made the same way as they used to be when Rambow invented them for Brunswick. The pilots of yesteryear were long (enough to touch the bottom of the hole, and wide(enough to make contact with the sides of the joint collar. Nowadays it is a tiny brass nipple sticking out without little if any contact with the collar, and leaving a big empty gap in the middle of the joint. What is the point in even having a pilot if it doesnt contact anything?? Is there even a point to having a pilot? Whats the deal??

Check out the pics of what I'm talking about.

Thanks
Ian

If you talk to any mechanical engineer or machinist in the country they will tell you that a standard machine threaded stud is used for only one purpose and that purpose is to mechanically hold something together. They are not made for registering. Some studs can have registers at their base to align something that attaches to it but standard 5/16X18 and 5/16X14 metal threads don't. The pilots that Rambow used was a snug fit between joint and shaft so that the out side of the shaft would stay aligned to the joint. His brass joints had a large I.D. so he made his shaft tenon large to fit as the inserts weren't that large. A properly fitted short pilot accomplishes the same thing. It centers the shaft to the joint . I believe you are mistaken about Rambow's pilot bottoming in the joint however. Bottoming this pilot would make the shaft not register off the joint and it would no longer roll true.

Dick

 

[scottycoyote]

im no cuemaker but id like to wade in on this one cuz ive noticed something similar. I shoot with a late 80s early 90s schon, and the piloted shafts on it have large round housings that cause an "interference fit" that i love. You screw the shaft on the butt, it threads on normally until you get to that last 3/4 turn, and then it takes some effort and the shaft really snugs up hard. I always thought the way the shafts fit relayed feedback and made the cue hit like it does (which i like). Ive had numerous cuemakers tell me that it has nothing to do with the hit, that the joint holds the cue together and thats it, but im not convinced. When my cue is put together you can bounce it on the floor and its like a tuning fork, the shafts vibrate and you can feel it. ive ordered several aftermarket shafts for my cue, and none of them have the same fit (although i requested it), and my cue definitely feels deader with those shafts.

 

[pdcue]

im no cuemaker but id like to wade in on this one cuz ive noticed something similar. I shoot with a late 80s early 90s schon, and the piloted shafts on it have large round housings that cause an "interference fit" that i love. You screw the shaft on the butt, it threads on normally until you get to that last 3/4 turn, and then it takes some effort and the shaft really snugs up hard. I always thought the way the shafts fit relayed feedback and made the cue hit like it does (which i like). Ive had numerous cuemakers tell me that it has nothing to do with the hit, that the joint holds the cue together and thats it, but im not convinced. When my cue is put together you can bounce it on the floor and its like a tuning fork, the shafts vibrate and you can feel it. ive ordered several aftermarket shafts for my cue, and none of them have the same fit (although i requested it), and my cue definitely feels deader with those shafts.

You may feel what you feel, but it has nothing to do with the tenon
on the shafts - it is due to the shafts themselves

Dale<I promise>

 

[pdcue]

no bottoming tenon

Sorry fiend, Dick's right on this one.
The last thing you want is for the tenon to touch the
wood at the 'bottom' of the joint

A tight, square fit to the shoulder of the joint by the shoulder of
the shaft is what's required

as for Herman's shaft tenons
it was a transition from the older pin in the shaft version
that had a non-threaded section for alignment. The original
radial pin

this design itself was an adaptation of the original French(Houle type)
design for a jointed cue which employed a threaded tenon on the shaft
that threaded into the butt. Still used on some Carom cues

Dale Pierce

 

[Cue Crazy]

Yep that's straight shootin there. I tried a few that bottom out, and they can be fine for a while, but before too long I would end up refacing 2 out of 3 insert pilots anyway, so I aggree no bottoming, just snug pilot. You could change the collar design and possibly avoid this with the right material, that is if you kept the inside clear from debri, but if theres wood in the bottom or any materials that can expand, odds are the pilot will need shortened up at some point in time.

Greg

 

[scottycoyote]

well i dont think mine is bottoming out and touching the wood, its more like the brass insert in the shaft is so big that when it hits the joint its what is touching, heres a pic

 

[pdcue]

well i dont think mine is bottoming out and touching the wood, its more like the brass insert in the shaft is so big that when it hits the joint its what is touching, heres a pic

nobody would think that a Schon shaft would bottom out
The dif in feel is due to the shafts, not the fact that they rub
against the joint collar

Dale

 

[spliced]

The modern piloted joints seem so pointless to me. Why go through all the trouble, only to end up with a pilot that doesnt contact the collar and leaves an empty gap in the middle of the cue?

BTW what is the usual OD of a 5/16x14 insert? Doesnt the large diameter of the insert weaken the shaft walls, and that was why Spain put the pin in the shaft instead?

 

[Arnot Wadsworth]

Shaft Inserts Bottoming Out?

If the shaft insert bottoms out it will prevent the shaft from seating properly.

If someone says that they can make them to do both they are WRONG.

THE INSERT MUST BE SHORT ENOUGH TO ALLOW THE SHAFT TO SEAT AGAINST THE WOOD/COLLAR OR THE CUE WILL NOT HIT PROPERLY. In fact I don't think the cue would work at all.

Good Cuemaking,

 

[Poulos Cues]

Maybe it has been said here, but I thought the purpose of the piloted joint is that the od of the insert/shaft tenon LOCATES to the id of the joint collar giving you the proper (snug) radial alignment (i.e. concentric alignment) of the shaft?

The bottom of the shaft/ insert tenon should come close (say 1/32 or less) to the bottom of the hole inside the joint collar but NOT touch the bottom. Any movement in the insert tenon could cause the shaft not to seat onto the joint- leaving you a gap- and that would NOT be any good. The od of the pilot may grow since it is wood, but after a couple of installs, it usually burnishes it enough that it becomes stable....right?? And the thread pulls it in if it is a bit snug.

The bottom of the shaft collar should "bottom out" against the top of the joint.

IMO.

Chris

 

[TheBook]

If you want the ultimate joint get a Layani.

Here is his thoughts on a joint:

http://www.layanicues.com/en/philosophy.htm#2

 

[Arnot Wadsworth]

Ultimate Joint?

The ultimate joint is a wood to wood flat faced joint without a pilot. Meucci did it for many years and it does not get any better regardless of who does it. It is easy to make and two flats fit together perfectly.

Making something complicated does not make it better. KISS = Keep it simple stupid.

Good cuemaking,

 

[pdcue]

The modern piloted joints seem so pointless to me. Why go through all the trouble, only to end up with a pilot that doesnt contact the collar and leaves an empty gap in the middle of the cue?

BTW what is the usual OD of a 5/16x14 insert? Doesnt the large diameter of the insert weaken the shaft walls, and that was why Spain put the pin in the shaft instead?

That's because you don't understand, the pilot was a holdover Herman used from the ealier methods. He built on a specialized wood lathe,
using hand held chisels. No tool post, no dials, no 1/2 a thousandth
accuracy.

"modern" piloted joints align by having the pin in the center of the butt
and the insert hole in the center of the shaft.

Consider the hugely popular 'radial pin'.
How do you think the shaft fits up so well to the butt.

Burt put the pin in the shaft because of tradition and his own strange
joint design

No, the insert most certainly doesn't weaken the shaft,
in point of fact, it makes it stronger.
Do you really think we would still be using them if they did?
Do yoiu think Balabushka would have?

The OD is exactly the same as the ones Rambow used

HTH
Dale

 

[4thHorseman]

You screw the shaft on the butt, it threads on normally until you get to that last 3/4 turn, and then it takes some effort and the shaft really snugs up hard. I always thought the way the shafts fit relayed feedback and made the cue hit like it does (which i like). Ive had numerous cuemakers tell me that it has nothing to do with the hit, that the joint holds the cue together and thats it...

I've always liked that about the older Schons, whether it made a difference or not, to me it just seemed to be a better fit, or a cuemakers attention to one more detail that might translate into a better feel. I look for piloted cues where the shaft's wood area above the brass pilot has that burnished look from years of screwing in and out of the joint. They scream player to me.

Interesting read. http://www.blackboarcustomcues.com/design/default.asp?CTID=115&IID=

 

[pdcue]

I've always liked that about the older Schons, whether it made a difference or not, to me it just seemed to be a better fit, or a cuemakers attention to one more detail that might translate into a better feel. I look for piloted cues where the shaft's wood area above the brass pilot has that burnished look from years of screwing in and out of the joint. They scream player to me.

Interesting read. http://www.blackboarcustomcues.com/design/default.asp?CTID=115&IID=

You might want to take a look at the way Balabushka's
shafts fit

Dale

 

[4thHorseman]

You might want to take a look at the way Balabushka's
shafts fit

Dale

I've seen a few at dealers booths but never had the pleasure of a close inspection/test drive. Could you elaborate, what would I see.