What's the difference between Skill levels in APA

thyme3421

Playing since 1.1.05..ish
Silver Member
I'm trying to learn how to judge the speed of someone... one match, maybe 2... and then say "Yeah, he's a solid 6" or a weak 5 or whatever.

But I don't know the difference between a 4 and 5, a 5-6, or 6-7.

can anyone explain the differences?


Oh, and if someone can explain the differences between the BCA skill levels, that'd be cool too.

Thanks :)
 
If your talking 8ball here it goes

2/3 newbies, probably can make a ball or two, maybe more depending on the table, but rarely runs 3 or 4 balls.

4/5 probably the toughest to judge, because, of the rating system. they probably can run several balls, but will eventually lose position or miss a ball. Safes are generally weak to lucky. But have been known to run a rack.

6's depending on the area, they can either be a MONSTER or a paper champ. They'll generally break and run a few balls, play good position and good safes also. Also are known to break n run often.

7's basically the same as a 6, but can range from a weak 7, to a SUPER 7. Meaning it could be your local house pro, to a guy who plays 2 or 3 days a week. Your Weak 7, is the guy in the smaller league who should be a 5 or 6, but beats up on everyone so he gets bumped to a 7. The Super 7, is your typical B+ to A player. Safes are good! and break n runs happen regularly. Normal games last maybe 1 or 2 innings.
 
StormHotRod300 said:
If your talking 8ball here it goes

2/3 newbies, probably can make a ball or two, maybe more depending on the table, but rarely runs 3 or 4 balls.

4/5 probably the toughest to judge, because, of the rating system. they probably can run several balls, but will eventually lose position or miss a ball. Safes are generally weak to lucky. But have been known to run a rack.

6's depending on the area, they can either be a MONSTER or a paper champ. They'll generally break and run a few balls, play good position and good safes also. Also are known to break n run often.

7's basically the same as a 6, but can range from a weak 7, to a SUPER 7. Meaning it could be your local house pro, to a guy who plays 2 or 3 days a week. Your Weak 7, is the guy in the smaller league who should be a 5 or 6, but beats up on everyone so he gets bumped to a 7. The Super 7, is your typical B+ to A player. Safes are good! and break n runs happen regularly. Normal games last maybe 1 or 2 innings.

The difference is who can best hide their true speed. Handicaps are an open door to cheating. Period.
 
If your talking 8ball here it goes

2/3 newbies, probably can make a ball or two, maybe more depending on the table, but rarely runs 3 or 4 balls.

4/5 probably the toughest to judge, because, of the rating system. they probably can run several balls, but will eventually lose position or miss a ball. Safes are generally weak to lucky. But have been known to run a rack.

6's depending on the area, they can either be a MONSTER or a paper champ. They'll generally break and run a few balls, play good position and good safes also. Also are known to break n run often.

7's basically the same as a 6, but can range from a weak 7, to a SUPER 7. Meaning it could be your local house pro, to a guy who plays 2 or 3 days a week. Your Weak 7, is the guy in the smaller league who should be a 5 or 6, but beats up on everyone so he gets bumped to a 7. The Super 7, is your typical B+ to A player. Safes are good! and break n runs happen regularly. Normal games last maybe 1 or 2 innings.

I agree.....and yeah there are issues with the systems as a whole,but the above quote pretty much nails it.

I'll add there really is no telling how bad a two or three might be....same for a seven.Everyone else you can at least get a feel for assuming they come to play at the best speed they can week in and week out.As mentioned,that's not always the case.
 
I've been a captain in the APA for a while and here's how I define things:

2 (and as a point of information, in manhattan, where I play, as with the national format, only women can be 2's): This is going to be someone that can pocket a ball or two, but really has no hope of playing both a good shot and good position. It's a war of attrition/luck for these players to win a game.

I feel the transition from a 2 to a 3 is either when the player gets good enough at pocketing to be able to make more than just one shot in a row reliably, or if some safety play is learned and incorporated - either of these two advancements will raise a player from a 2 to a 3.

3: Female 3's can generally hold a cue decently and would be able to run a couple of balls and understand a bit about where the cue is going to go even if they can't make it happen all the time. Men will range from absolute beginners (since they can no be 2's) to being able to make a few shots.

I think the transition from 3 to 4 is when your fundamentals start to come together a bit and you have played enough to understand how the cue can be moved around (draw/follow/spin).

4: These players usually are starting to grasp all the fundamentals together. They have a semi-decent stance, bridge, form. They understand how to use follow and draw and can execute them inconsistently. Given an easy open table they should be good to run 3-4 balls. They do not have the control to really run out or play fantastic safeties. They will not think very far ahead.

I think the transition here is when you can play at least a moderate sized area position consistently. 4's will go up to 5's when they can put the cue ball somewhat near where they want it to go as well as executing pocketable shots consistently.

5: In my league these players can be the wildcard. A weak 5 is not going to be very hard to beat. But a strong 5 might be able to manage a break and run here and there, will probably be able to play a tough safety to get out of. To me the biggest thing that identifies 5's is the amazing ability, time and time again for them to run until they have just 1 problem ball left. The full rack run out though process is not learned here yet. They can move the ball around, break things up, but not well enough to really handle all the situations that come up. More often then not a 5 will clear most of the table for me and leave an easy run out, even if they are shooting well.

The big thing here is the ability to complete the rack. Knowing what racks wont be likely to be completed without exceptional play. Having an ability to honestly calculate the percentage to make a shot/run out and either go for the out or play an appropriate safety at the appropriate time. Also at this point you should be building an arsenal of "difficult" shots to call on. IE they have played enough to know the details on how to make shots that are not obvious/require solid fundamentals and have played enough or practiced enough to actually make them consistently.

6: 6's should be able to run an open table (that is one with no major problems) and should be able to run out on tables with only moderate problems (say a cluster to break up, but a favorable break ball already in position). They should at this point be able to calculate more advanced shots - lining up off angle combinations. Knowing how to aim bank shots and make them at least somewhat consistently (well the "easy" ones anyway). They should have some understanding of how to move the cue around the table even if they have to use multiple rails. Safety play should be to the point where they can lock up the cue for any lesser handicapped player sufficiently.

The basic difference here is that 7's are just better at everything than the 6's. They will make every shot a higher percentage of the time. Be able to execute a break and run more often and on more challenging rack layouts. They will play better safeties. They will play better position. Etc etc etc. I don't think many 6's watch a 7 play and are unable to see what's going on, they can imagine it, just maybe not execute it as well.

7: These players run a wide gamut as already mentioned. In particular newly minted 7's usually do terribly against strong 5's and 6's. Since the way the game spot works when you move to a 7 everyone else has to win one less. This makes things much easier for strong 5's and 6's. On the flip side 7's can run all the way up to open speed players. The APA manual says you can't play in the APA only if you make a significant amount of money from pool - well that rules out just about everyone - including plenty of semi-pros. There are plenty of 7's I (as a strong 6 in my league) absolutely do not want to play because the odds of my winning are very small. These players at least should have a chance to run out most racks that aren't overly challenging. And should be able to both play very good safeties and get out of most moderately well played safeties. A 7 should not be giving up ball in hand in any but the most difficult circumstances (or when you give it up as a safety in and of itself). Personally I think this is a huge weak spot in the handicapping - there just aren't enough levels to represent the skill range in the 7 category...

All that being said - if you search for previous posts by me you'll see my big rant on the APA from another thread:)

I think it is pretty easy to put someone in the right category just by watching them play a few matches - you can sandbag all you want, but you simply can't hide fundamentals. A skilled observer can easily notice when someone is under handicapped.
 
Also on the math side of things, the SL is basically determined by a secret formula that boils down to something along the lines of "innings-safeties/games" some people know more about the secret formula than others, but the premise is the lower your inning count is (minus safeties) the higher your handicap. If you want to search around on google you can probably find lots of information on the way things are actually calculated.
 
I think it is pretty easy to put someone in the right category just by watching them play a few matches - you can sandbag all you want, but you simply can't hide fundamental.

Agreed and it true in your own league.

Tougher in latter play though.New faces and such.

I lost to a three after lagging and shooting exactly one time at the cities once.
 
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thanks for the info.

as european player, we dont have any handicap system here, i can understand now what you guys mean with APA7 etc..

i run racks now and then, and i have a 40% chance to beat the 9ball ghost with ball in hand after the break, i run 20breaks in most of my straightpoolmatches in races to 75, and my high run is 27in league and 42 on a 8fter.

guess i'm a weak apa6 then correct? :o
 
Solly,

You could be anywhere from a killer 4 to a solid 6 in my area. The deal is sandbagging to stay down, or let your stroke out and go up. Truly I'd have you at a 6. Your team mates, most likely, would ask you to sandbag enough to be no more than a 5. But that would be up to you.
 
42NateBaller said:
Solly,

You could be anywhere from a killer 4 to a solid 6 in my area. The deal is sandbagging to stay down, or let your stroke out and go up. Truly I'd have you at a 6. Your team mates, most likely, would ask you to sandbag enough to be no more than a 5. But that would be up to you.

Thus the reason my team eventually just got outright slaughtered by a sandbagging team in vegas...sigh...

If anything everyone who considers themselves at actual player should want to be slightly overhandicapped - it makes you work harder and play smarter.
 
people aren't always sandbagging and if you get caught in vegas you get thrown out. your rating is also representative of the league you're play in. play in a killer league and you might only be a 5 where you would be a 6 or a 7 elsewhere in a league where the competition isn't as good.

the apa does as well as any league i've been in in trying to regulate and create a standardized system for ratings - but as with all systems there are ways for people to 'cheat'
 
BrooklynJay said:
people aren't always sandbagging and if you get caught in vegas you get thrown out. your rating is also representative of the league you're play in. play in a killer league and you might only be a 5 where you would be a 6 or a 7 elsewhere in a league where the competition isn't as good.

the apa does as well as any league i've been in in trying to regulate and create a standardized system for ratings - but as with all systems there are ways for people to 'cheat'

Too true, but if you are going to have a national format...well then it's not really fair for people of equal skill level to be spotting each other one or two games just because the competition is not as intense in their particular area. As a 6, I should not be playing a 5 who shoots better and has better position play and has better safety play than myself - no matter what league area we each play in.

The match that got my team kicked out, the last match we played was against a 5 on their team...who was obviously underhandicapped. They had one of the official "watchers" watching. But they didn't think he was out off line I guess. The guy, on more than one occassion made incredibly difficult bank and carom shots with nearly perfect position play. He absolutely slaughtered our 5. He also had nearly picture perfect form and stroke, with a complete and full follow through - very pretty. Very obviously not a 5. Probably as good as any 6 in my league area.

Nonetheless, my trip to vegas was free so it was fun. I did not however win even a single match in any of my mini mania's. Now in manhattan I'm a very strong 6 - my record, over the prior 3 seasons, before hitting vegas was 23-4...not too shabby and well over half those matches were to 5's and 6's - so it wasn't like I was playing "easy" matches. In vegas I did not win a single match I played between 3 competition matches and 6 mini-mania matches. My first match I got beat by a 4...who out safetied me to win the match. The disparity between handicapping in the leagues is a serious problem - coming from the manhattan league system it's nice to go to vegas, but realistically no team from manhattan has a shot at getting anywhere near the serious money - our league of 100+ teams is apparently not competitive enough (or we don't sandbag enough - whatever). To keep us competitive on the national level. So while we will definitely try and make it to vegas again, it's viewed as more of a lark, than a real chance to place in say the top 16.

I don't have a problem with the handicapping per se, it's that it's so bad at keeping things even between the disparate league areas...
 
Good commentary. I agree with the point about the strength of the league you play in. I play in NJ and FL. there is a difference in the skill of these two leagues.
 
Dawgie said:
Good commentary. I agree with the point about the strength of the league you play in. I play in NJ and FL. there is a difference in the skill of these two leagues.

That's quite the commute...I guess you winter in FL or something?
 
StormHotRod300 said:
If your talking 8ball here it goes

2/3 newbies, probably can make a ball or two, maybe more depending on the table, but rarely runs 3 or 4 balls.

4/5 probably the toughest to judge, because, of the rating system. they probably can run several balls, but will eventually lose position or miss a ball. Safes are generally weak to lucky. But have been known to run a rack.

6's depending on the area, they can either be a MONSTER or a paper champ. They'll generally break and run a few balls, play good position and good safes also. Also are known to break n run often.

7's basically the same as a 6, but can range from a weak 7, to a SUPER 7. Meaning it could be your local house pro, to a guy who plays 2 or 3 days a week. Your Weak 7, is the guy in the smaller league who should be a 5 or 6, but beats up on everyone so he gets bumped to a 7. The Super 7, is your typical B+ to A player. Safes are good! and break n runs happen regularly. Normal games last maybe 1 or 2 innings.

Near perfect analysis.
 
Heres my thoughts

2- Just tries to make a ball... some can make 3-4 in a row but also can miss 3-4 easy ones in a row as well. No speed control -- safety ? whats that?

3- Can run more 3-4 just like the 2 but wont miss as many in a row as
a 2. Can take a little direction and some have learned not to smack every ball.

4- Average bar banger -- can run balls ... a run out of 5-6 is rare .. usually never sees where they messed up .. usually thinks that they can make anything.

5- Average good bar player ... can run out but doesnt break out balls that well .... plays the simple safties and thinks that they are good .. thinks the 7s get luckier than he does ....

6- 5s that try to run out to much or people that should be a 7 but are in a really strong area. Most are the first part.
Due to the APA handicap being based on innings the 6s usually are rated
where they are because the try to run out and leave the table for the other guy. From my experience this level is one of the most beatable by players rated under them.
Some 6s do play better than a 5 but not as good as a 7 and play semi correctly. However they are small quantities

7- huge range --- some I wonder how they are 7s and others its almost like they are stealing ... the game of 8ball does bring the gap between a Super 7 and a regular 7 closer. In 9 ball a super 9 can and will kill a weaker 9 more often.


SL 3 is where you will see the biggest variance in skill.... some will be close to a 2 while others will be much better and seemingly should be twice as good as a 2. I have been told that the range in which a person can be rated a 3 is twice as big as the other levels except for the 7 level.
Makes since .... 2 should be really bad and then they give you time to learn at the inconsisitent 3 level.
 
juggler314 said:
Too true, but if you are going to have a national format...well then it's not really fair for people of equal skill level to be spotting each other one or two games just because the competition is not as intense in their particular area. As a 6, I should not be playing a 5 who shoots better and has better position play and has better safety play than myself - no matter what league area we each play in.

The match that got my team kicked out, the last match we played was against a 5 on their team...who was obviously underhandicapped. They had one of the official "watchers" watching. But they didn't think he was out off line I guess. The guy, on more than one occassion made incredibly difficult bank and carom shots with nearly perfect position play. He absolutely slaughtered our 5. He also had nearly picture perfect form and stroke, with a complete and full follow through - very pretty. Very obviously not a 5. Probably as good as any 6 in my league area.

Nonetheless, my trip to vegas was free so it was fun. I did not however win even a single match in any of my mini mania's. Now in manhattan I'm a very strong 6 - my record, over the prior 3 seasons, before hitting vegas was 23-4...not too shabby and well over half those matches were to 5's and 6's - so it wasn't like I was playing "easy" matches. In vegas I did not win a single match I played between 3 competition matches and 6 mini-mania matches. My first match I got beat by a 4...who out safetied me to win the match. The disparity between handicapping in the leagues is a serious problem - coming from the manhattan league system it's nice to go to vegas, but realistically no team from manhattan has a shot at getting anywhere near the serious money - our league of 100+ teams is apparently not competitive enough (or we don't sandbag enough - whatever). To keep us competitive on the national level. So while we will definitely try and make it to vegas again, it's viewed as more of a lark, than a real chance to place in say the top 16.

I don't have a problem with the handicapping per se, it's that it's so bad at keeping things even between the disparate league areas...

you're assuming that your guy who's a 5, and yourself who is an SL 6, are rated correctly. how do you know that you're not OVER rated? I'm being serious here cause everyone assumes where they play everyone is ranked correctly.

i just started the apa in brooklyn/queens so i'm just a lowly 4. people who've seen my game, who have been to vegas numerous times on several championship apa teams, tell me i would be a 5 nationally but i would have a hard time at vegas as a 5. i recently beat a 6 and a 7 in the league i'm in fairly easily because they're highly over rated, SL wise.

my benchmark for judging speed? i was in vegas in august and watched a lot of the apa matches, it's what made me join the apa, and the 6's and 7's were PLAYERS - strong Cs and Bs (at the minimum) in letter terms.
 
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BrooklynJay said:
you're assuming that your guy who's a 5, and yourself who is an SL 6, are rated correctly. how do you know that you're not OVER rated? I'm being serious here cause everyone assumes where they play everyone is ranked correctly.

i just started the apa in brooklyn/queens so i'm just a lowly 4. people who've seen my game, who have been to vegas numerous times on several championship apa teams, tell me i would be a 5 nationally but i would have a hard time at vegas as a 5. i recently beat a 6 and a 7 in the league i'm in fairly easily because they're highly over rated, SL wise.

my benchmark for judging speed? i was in vegas in august and watched a lot of the apa matches, it's what made me join the apa, and the 6's and 7's were PLAYERS - strong Cs and Bs (at the minimum) in letter terms.

It's entirely possible. But within the frame of the manhattan APA I'm definitely not overhandicapped. However in vegas I felt like I was definitely overhandicapped and would only be able to legitimately compete as a 5. I've played in the singles regionals in LI 6 times, 2x I've made finals (and lost:( and 1 time I made semi's. I'm pretty sure my Handicap - at least in respect to our local competition around here is very accurate.

Sometimes after a particularly good match people will joke around about "when am I finally going to get raised to a 7". For the most part I think I could do ok in manhattan as a 7 (obviously on the weaker end of the spectrum). But once again, in vegas even as a 6 I get blown out of the water, being a 7 would only make playing in vegas that much harder...

and for what it's worth (and since *I* don't mind pegging my handicap on a public forum - it's been posted on the league board at ABC anyway), I play in the Amsterdam individual league as a B (in the more competitive team league - last time I was in it was a couple of years ago - I played as a C+).

To be honest my experience in vegas was probably a bit atypical. I played 2 7's in the team competition and lost to one on the hill. It was the 4 that outsafetied me that really pissed me off - if he can play table length safes that well...he just shouldn't be a 4. And the mini-mania events are notorious for only having the strongest players in them - especially the 6/7 events (there are very few 5/6 events - mostly they are 4/5 and 6/7 or 5/6/7). So my competition was particularly stiff. I got to the hill in one of the mini-mania events playing another 7 as well. And almost beat an SL9 at 9ball playing as an SL7 (they had to assign me one SL up because I had no 9 ball rating). People like Jason Kane go to vegas just to shellac everyone else and win a couple of K in the mini-mania events. You've got to be playing at that speed to have a decent chance of winning the 6/7 mini's.

It is a real eye opener for sure! I will probably go next year for at least a few days even if my team does not make it.
 
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