APA 3 beginner sandbager.
lol
lol
What's the difference between Skill levels in APA
- Thread starter thyme3421
- Start date
juggler - My team made it to Vegas this year, and I saw some baggers, but "we" were getting WAY more complaints about our skill level than we were complaining about others....we had a 3 and a 4 raised right before we went to Vegas, and thought we'd be OK as far as raises go. Nope, I got raised (4 to 5), one of our 5s got raised, and the 3 who went to a 4 before the tourney was being watched as a 4. I was also told that if I won again that I'd go to a 6 (being raised twice in the tourney). Our last two matches we couldn't feild 5 players...LOL
All that said, I think we play in a league that has a few SUPER players as 7s, and the rest are kinda judged off of them. Anytime teams from our area go to Vegas they have to seriously worry about being DQed, and I think it is the league operators fault. I'm fairly new to it all, but it did seem weird to me that I hovered around an 80% win percentage, and went 9-1 in the qualifying tourney, and stayed a 4 (beating 2 7s in said tourney). Maybe they put to much weight in innings for rankings???? One team we played from AL said that they NEVER marked safties in their league play....lotsa factors, and lotsa different ways the leagues are run. BTW, I took down one mini and 2nd in another as a 4
All that said, I think we play in a league that has a few SUPER players as 7s, and the rest are kinda judged off of them. Anytime teams from our area go to Vegas they have to seriously worry about being DQed, and I think it is the league operators fault. I'm fairly new to it all, but it did seem weird to me that I hovered around an 80% win percentage, and went 9-1 in the qualifying tourney, and stayed a 4 (beating 2 7s in said tourney). Maybe they put to much weight in innings for rankings???? One team we played from AL said that they NEVER marked safties in their league play....lotsa factors, and lotsa different ways the leagues are run. BTW, I took down one mini and 2nd in another as a 4
trustyrusty said:juggler - My team made it to Vegas this year, and I saw some baggers, but "we" were getting WAY more complaints about our skill level than we were complaining about others....we had a 3 and a 4 raised right before we went to Vegas, and thought we'd be OK as far as raises go. Nope, I got raised (4 to 5), one of our 5s got raised, and the 3 who went to a 4 before the tourney was being watched as a 4. I was also told that if I won again that I'd go to a 6 (being raised twice in the tourney). Our last two matches we couldn't feild 5 players...LOL
All that said, I think we play in a league that has a few SUPER players as 7s, and the rest are kinda judged off of them. Anytime teams from our area go to Vegas they have to seriously worry about being DQed, and I think it is the league operators fault. I'm fairly new to it all, but it did seem weird to me that I hovered around an 80% win percentage, and went 9-1 in the qualifying tourney, and stayed a 4 (beating 2 7s in said tourney). Maybe they put to much weight in innings for rankings???? One team we played from AL said that they NEVER marked safties in their league play....lotsa factors, and lotsa different ways the leagues are run. BTW, I took down one mini and 2nd in another as a 4
Marking safeties is key, without it everyone will be underhandicapped. Generally the difference between any two skill levels amounts to "about" 1 less inning/game average. So if you are a 4 and normally have to win 3 games for a match, and lets say on average you play 4.5 games / match. This means if you never take any safeties then your SL will be accurate. But if you are regularly taking say 4-6 safeties/match, your adjusted innings would come down by about 1 inning/game - enough to change you (potentially) from a 4 to a 5.
Not properly marking defensive shots is rampant in the APA. This is one reason both teams keep a scoresheet - theoretically this should inhibit sandbagging as the opposing team has it in their best interest to mark every shot that appears to be defensive down. In practice there are whole divisions or entire league areas that don't much mark safeties.
The thing at Vegas is that whatever *was* happening at home - either people not marking safeties or LO's not properly entering data in is NOT going to happen in Vegas. Thus if you had 3 different people on your team all move up, they were likely under-handicapped per the hard and fast rules to start with. If you were about to go from a 4 to 6 it means you were WAY underhandicapped and it is not surprising that you did well in the minis. If anything your testimonial above points out exactly what is wrong with the APA league system. In vegas, every team makes damn sure that safeties are marked and I'm willing to bet whichever score sheet has more of them is the number that gets input and the TD will almost never change whatever the computer spits out (as an aside I had a 2 on my team win her first match 2-0 against a 4, my 2 made only 3 balls between both games, her opponent nearly ran out, but scratched on the 8 ball both times - I think anyone would agree this was not really a "win" for my 2, however my 2 was very near to going up to a 3 and when this was input to the computer she got spit back out as a 3 - I complained to the TD about this - since it's obvious she did not get "better" based on this match - she barely shot, the TD basically said "too bad").
Sometimes people don't realize that *every* shot you take, if you don't intend for a ball to be pocketed is to be marked as a safety. This means even shots where you do pocket balls can be safeties. And if you are kicking at a ball just to avoid ball in hand for your opponent - if it's played just hard enough to get to your object ball - also a safety. I think many people either don't understand this or ignore it. It's actually possible to have more safeties than innings if you follow these rules rigidely. I've had some matches where 2-3 games in safeties have equaled or been more than innings - due to unintentional ball pocketing when playing a very close to the pocket safety.
When I was raised out there is was after a match like you described with your 2. Opponent was a 3. He broke, made the 8 on the break and scratched. I broke 2nd game - dry....he runs 3 or 4 balls and makes the 8 outta turn. I break the third game and make a couple of balls and play safe. He kicks and knocks in the 8 outta turn again. I win 3-0 in 1 inning, and am raised for my next match....sure, I probably shoulda been raised to a 5 anyway, but it took a fluke match to do it??? I whined for about 2 minutes - LOL
I started playing in a league last fall session, and for spring played two nights. I'm back to one night again, and it's for the team that virtually has no shot at making Vegas....yes, that's on purpose. I'm as competitive as anyone, but sheesh, Vegas was; like you said, a real eye opener. BTW, we had a 6 that went 3-0 out there that didn't lose a game, and we thought for sure he'd go up if he played again too (he truly looked a lot better than the 7's we played against, and our 7 can regularly walk all over that 6...). I think we were rated correctly for our area, but admittedly not for Vegas. I feel sorry for the next team that goes....I might even tell them to raise anyone who is strong for their SL to help lessen the worry of DQing.
I started playing in a league last fall session, and for spring played two nights. I'm back to one night again, and it's for the team that virtually has no shot at making Vegas....yes, that's on purpose. I'm as competitive as anyone, but sheesh, Vegas was; like you said, a real eye opener. BTW, we had a 6 that went 3-0 out there that didn't lose a game, and we thought for sure he'd go up if he played again too (he truly looked a lot better than the 7's we played against, and our 7 can regularly walk all over that 6...). I think we were rated correctly for our area, but admittedly not for Vegas. I feel sorry for the next team that goes....I might even tell them to raise anyone who is strong for their SL to help lessen the worry of DQing.
It all comes down to what league you play in. It is hard to judge a players speed at first glance.
The SL# descriptions are very inaccurate for the Joliet area. I should be a 6 on your charts, and i'm a 4 here.
P.S. Whoever said that the mid to weak SL6 is the easiest to beat is wrong. In joliet i'll take the strong 4 against any 7 in a 5 - 2 race all day.
The SL# descriptions are very inaccurate for the Joliet area. I should be a 6 on your charts, and i'm a 4 here.
P.S. Whoever said that the mid to weak SL6 is the easiest to beat is wrong. In joliet i'll take the strong 4 against any 7 in a 5 - 2 race all day.
Bugz said:
I'm with you Bugs...central IL is the same way. Unless the 7 is McGrath...then the 4 racks, sits & watches, and might even take notes LOL
Bugz said:
Yeah - proving the point more, however it shouldn't come down to that. Based on your comment, my team has absolutely zero chance of beating your team - knowing nothing else about any of the players other than that your local SL's run 1-2 under mine! What's the point of playing if you know you have no shot.
I play in the tri-state tour around here sometimes, it's handicapped, I've money'd a few events. But if I ever entered one of the Joss tour events, it would just be for fun, no way do I have anything near an even chance to get in the money in an open event...
in particular I have heard that TX and IL have SL's very out of whack with the rest of the areas...don't know how much truth there is to this though as I've only been to vegas the one time.
I wrote a letter to the APA asking to explain why the perceived SL differences were so great between different leagues, but, predictably, they did not reply. I think when it comes down to it the APA has two missions: encourage more people to play pool and stay in business. They manage the former pretty well simply by having an amatuer targeted handicapped league system. They manage the 2nd by basically letting their LO franchises do whatever they want and not really policing the system. It is plain as day to anyone that watches a few matches that the variance is SL's is all over the map, certainly something could be done about that to try and bring a bit more even-ness to the national scene - but as far as the national org goes it really doesn't matter - people will come to vegas and play, and the APA gets their money.
If I were to show up in some random local tournament in chicago and i told them I play as a B at Amsterdam in NYC, I could then tell them the handicaps of some other players that might be more well known and they could put me in to their local tourney at an appropriate skill level. Whether that would be higher or lower I don't know. It would be easy enough to have some sort of adjustment factor for the APA as well.
I could understand there being some variance, but if you say your 4's as a group can all run a given table without big problems - well that's far far above the skill level of 4's anywhere in the tri-state area. The singles regionals here that I play in encompass manhattan, brooklyn, queens, suffolk and nassau county and at those regionals I'm a strong 6. I get the impression from other people I know that if anything the NJ leagues are even weaker than that.
It's hard to understand how our SL's are so much higher than the ones in the Joliet area considering that Pool is a pretty serious business here. I see a number of pro's all the time at amsterdam. NYC is generally regarded as one of the best places in the country to play straight pool. Hell Thorsten Hohmann seems to have taken up residence here even though he technically lives in Jacksonville last I checked.
The only theory I've been able to come up with is that the main reason SL's are so much higher here is that most league players are just that - league players. They don't really try and work at the game. Most people serious about pool play in "serious" leagues at Amsterdam Billiards, master billiards or other places around the area. Most people I know through the APA are not serious students of the game - to give an indication of this I'll offer up this bit of a conversation I had once with a *7*.
The situation is he needed to draw back into a rail and then come off to his left from the rail (with spin) for shape. I tell him to do this by applying right hand english - we proceed to debate whether you should use right or left english (correct answer is right). So he still doesn't believe me but i convince him to shoot it anyway by telling him I'll buy him a beer if I'm wrong. I did not have to buy him a beer. So here's a 7, that should understand these basic pool playing concepts - but in reality, he's just played league 8 ball for so many years, he eventually built up enough memory of how to run tables, safety, etc that he wins a lot and does so in not so many innings.
I get the impression that this is common around here - people don't really work at the game in league, they come in, their SL adjusts to their natural skill and they only play league once/week and that's it.
However if say your team is likely to play a lot of bar pool all week long while hanging out and you have knowledgeable experienced players telling them how things work. Well I think you'll end up with the situation you describe - 4's that play like 6's here. Generally I don't see many players under a 5 who really understand how and when to safety...even 5's are not so good with it.
I tend to think that areas where there isn't a competitive local "real" pool scene are the areas that have entire leagues full of people that would beat the crap out of similiarlly SL'd folks here in the tri-state area.
That's just my guess anyway.
Thanks Everyone
Thanks to everyone that posted an explanation, it's cleared up a lot of questions I've had, but didn't know how to ask.
My next question is something to the effect of what follows:
I just started in APA, and I've only played 4 games... I haven't gotten 100% control over my nerves in league play yet... so I'm SL 3... most recent matched ended up being 86 innings (literally)...
I feel I'm probably a strong 4 or a weak-mid level 5 according to a bit of a meshing of all the descriptions.
What I'm wondering is if I start playing closer to my true speed, people are going to say "You're a 3?!" and may accuse of sandbagging. I'd rather not go down that route...
so my question is.... do you think this is likely?
Thanks to everyone that posted an explanation, it's cleared up a lot of questions I've had, but didn't know how to ask.
My next question is something to the effect of what follows:
I just started in APA, and I've only played 4 games... I haven't gotten 100% control over my nerves in league play yet... so I'm SL 3... most recent matched ended up being 86 innings (literally)...
I feel I'm probably a strong 4 or a weak-mid level 5 according to a bit of a meshing of all the descriptions.
What I'm wondering is if I start playing closer to my true speed, people are going to say "You're a 3?!" and may accuse of sandbagging. I'd rather not go down that route...
so my question is.... do you think this is likely?
I played a 6 from Boston at the NTC two years ago that was damn strong. After the match he said that there are a bunch of other stonger players in his area that are the 7's so to make thing seven he was still a 6 (sounds like his teammate is the league operator). Was a 2 inning match, me race to 5, him to 4:
I won lag.
Broke and ran the first 3 games in a row. Up 3-0.
Empty break. He runs out. 3-1
He breaks and runs out. 3-2
Empty break. I run out. 4-2
Empty break. He runs out. 4-3
He breaks and runs 6 but hooks himself by 1/2" on last ball before 8. He makes a good hit. I run out. 5-3.
There is difference between the top players. There are 6's that are just good shot makers and so their innings stay low so they are 6's. Stronger 6's play some good safeties and know when to use them. There is also a big variance in 7's. Like others have said there can be world beaters who play perfectly and string racks together, and there are others that are just 7s cause they have been in the league a long time. Sure the innings stay low but they don't run 7 and out consistently.
I won lag.
Broke and ran the first 3 games in a row. Up 3-0.
Empty break. He runs out. 3-1
He breaks and runs out. 3-2
Empty break. I run out. 4-2
Empty break. He runs out. 4-3
He breaks and runs 6 but hooks himself by 1/2" on last ball before 8. He makes a good hit. I run out. 5-3.
There is difference between the top players. There are 6's that are just good shot makers and so their innings stay low so they are 6's. Stronger 6's play some good safeties and know when to use them. There is also a big variance in 7's. Like others have said there can be world beaters who play perfectly and string racks together, and there are others that are just 7s cause they have been in the league a long time. Sure the innings stay low but they don't run 7 and out consistently.
John Barton
New member
The OFFICIAL APA GUIDE to Skill Levels
APA 2 - Can't find the table.
APA 3 - Can't find the pocket.
APA 4 - Can't run three balls except for the LAST 3.
APA 5 - Spots Reyes the 7
APA 6 - B Player in most tournaments - Runs out occasionally.
APA 7 - Thinks they are way better than they are. B to Low A in most local tournaments. Not good enough to be an APA 5.
APA 2 - Can't find the table.
APA 3 - Can't find the pocket.
APA 4 - Can't run three balls except for the LAST 3.
APA 5 - Spots Reyes the 7
APA 6 - B Player in most tournaments - Runs out occasionally.
APA 7 - Thinks they are way better than they are. B to Low A in most local tournaments. Not good enough to be an APA 5.
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juggler314 said:
Remember the APA is a buisness, if they raised everyone in Joliet to the level they should be. You might as well tell all of the 7's to leave, because no one would be able to field a team with a 7 in the roster.
It is not surprising to walk into a "pool" bar in Joliet (a bar with 5-7 7' diamonds) and see 3/4/5's working with stronger players. So we put our work in, we know how to look for patterns and safties. To make it simple, the lower SL's have great teachers.
So as an area, the competition and knowledge is there to make the area in general better. That is the problem with the APA, competition and coaching changes through out the nation.
In Joliet there are plenty of 7's and 6's that can win a match in a TOTAL of 1 or 2 innings. Im talking dozens if not more, where other areas have one or two guys that are the cream of the crop.
i don't know if it is fair or not, especially when we go to nationals. Most of our teams get DQ'd anyways. Have fun and play pool is what it comes down to. A number is just a number, play your game and hope for the best.
Sounds like a DragonBall Z thing.StormHotRod300 said:
hahaBugz said:
I knew it! Seriously though I'm glad my theory comes out true, it makes total sense as to why the SL's are so far out of whack. And yeah only the best 7's in manhattan regularly win matches in a total of 1-2 innings. I'm a pretty strong 6 and I am hovering around a 2 innings/game average...
I have tried over the past few years to get my teammates (the lower SL ones) to come out and practice on weekends etc, but there's just a lack of interest for that sort of discipline. It's also *incredibly* expensive to play pool in manhattan
Even in bars tables are all slowly migrating to $2/game...and that can go *fast*.
APA is a league built around moving people up in handicap to expand the ammount of teams in the league.
APA is a league for sandbaggers, if you are not you will cry alot about those who are as you watch them go to vegas.
My base opinion about handicaps was always this:
5's run 5-7 balls alot but dont move good enough to get out often.
6's can run out but usually make simple errors in shape or breakouts, also dont deal with safety games well.
7's honestly can be the same as a 6 and moved up because of matching up against weak players or you will run into a monster, mostly depends on where you are from.
Here is dsm there is only one monster 7 in the league, a few 7's who play ok, then a few 7's who should be 6's but wont bag to keep there handicap in check. There are 2-3 6's who at times play great pool.
Hope this info/rant helps
APA is a league for sandbaggers, if you are not you will cry alot about those who are as you watch them go to vegas.
My base opinion about handicaps was always this:
5's run 5-7 balls alot but dont move good enough to get out often.
6's can run out but usually make simple errors in shape or breakouts, also dont deal with safety games well.
7's honestly can be the same as a 6 and moved up because of matching up against weak players or you will run into a monster, mostly depends on where you are from.
Here is dsm there is only one monster 7 in the league, a few 7's who play ok, then a few 7's who should be 6's but wont bag to keep there handicap in check. There are 2-3 6's who at times play great pool.
Hope this info/rant helps
Running out ups your handicap. Playing smart and winning does not. My win/loss record is always pretty solid. I play consistently. If I can't get out I put balls in position so that they can't either. I don't break and run often, but I do win often. I am a 5. I watch a friend who is a 7 break and run often, but he leaves the other player opportunities by not protecting the table when he misses.
3 - 4+ innings per game
4 - 3/4
5 - 2/4
6 - 1-3
7 - can run out consistently
The biggest problem is that teaching your players how to play will cause you to exceed the 23 rule. This sucks. We had to divide our team and make two new this session. Each of us picked up 4 new players. Now, these four players as well as those of us playing before have all moved up again. My team will have to split again in less than 6 months and the other team will probably have to move one or two players to this team to keep from exceeding 23 as well.
The max number of points should be adjusted somehow. It is not a bad thing to teach your teammates to play better pool.
3 - 4+ innings per game
4 - 3/4
5 - 2/4
6 - 1-3
7 - can run out consistently
The biggest problem is that teaching your players how to play will cause you to exceed the 23 rule. This sucks. We had to divide our team and make two new this session. Each of us picked up 4 new players. Now, these four players as well as those of us playing before have all moved up again. My team will have to split again in less than 6 months and the other team will probably have to move one or two players to this team to keep from exceeding 23 as well.
The max number of points should be adjusted somehow. It is not a bad thing to teach your teammates to play better pool.
iba7467 said:
Yeah that is a problem too, between all the various rules around what your SL will be in vegas my team had to go with 76654432, after the first match it went to 76654333 (4 went down 2 went up) pretty much unplayable. Had to recruit a bunch of low ranked players for this season...
thyme3421 said:
If you had a match that lasted 86 innings
you don't need to worry much about being called a sandbagger...
Seriously man, how long did that match take?
Also, I completely agree with everyone in terms of the amount of competition in your area. I am a SL6 in the Boston area but I can remember going to Vegas and there was an 8 on the opposing team that was screaming that I had a better stroke than him. I wound up crushing his 7, 46-2.
I told him outside afterwards that I normally play on 9 footers at home and that for some reason the 7 footers out there played real easy. Not to mention, if I were sandbagging I would have never played that strong against a 7. I watched the rest of that team shoot and I would say they were all at least 1 handicap higher than they would have been in my area.
Then we ended up getting spanked by a bunch of 4's who could really shoot.
thyme3421 said:
If you've been in the APA for a while and understand how things work people should not begrudge your under-handicapped status in the beginning. The formula the APA rely's on has to have at least 10 scores before it becomes useful. Since that's the case weird strange things can happen in the first few matches. For instance my first match ever I killed another 4 3-0 in 6 innings, next week I was a 7 - was this a realistic rating...no...I settled into being a 5 for about 2 years once I had a few more matches under my belt.
The thing is when you are dealing with averages and you don't have enough data points crazy stuff happens. I just added a girl to my team. She was a 3 from a couple of years ago. She wins her first match, I totally expect her to be raised to a 4, but she isn't. Next week she loses - and gets lowered to a 2. Is she under-handicapped in my opinion, totally, but she also lost two matches due to nerves - just like you. Am I going to do anything about it - no - everyone gets the same benefit from new players - I've been killed by "new" 4's that eventually got raised to 6's or 7's later in the season - it happens.
That being said, if you are a "known" player - lets say you play amateuer events for years in your area and you are known as a serious B player - the APA manual does state that you should go in something closer to your actual handicap and not start as a "new" 4. I can't believe anyone actually enforces/submits to that rule though. Here's the rule: "A League Operator is authorized to assign special skill levels
and lowest attainables to new players who are known highly skilled players or
to players who have previously established skill levels in another format" I think that pretty much only applies to people that would be 6's and 7's though.