Whats the difference....?

[Snapshot9]

Pros

John Schmidt is considered a Pro now because he won a major tournament, that solidified him as a Pro.

We do not have organizations that 'define' what a pro is, and a bigger problem, is no definition for a 'Semi Pro'. Pool lacks definition of the levels of players, and is limited to local or regional definitions that vary from region to region.

Winning a major tournament would qualify someone, but what if someone wins 5 regional tournaments, does that qualify him? James Walden for example, never won a major tournament, but tore up regionals for years. I consider Walden a pro. Should your classification depend on the tournament and the number of players in the tournaments?

What if you cash in 4-5 National tournaments? Would you be considered a pro then? (1/4th of the field usually cashes).

When they had the Pro tour with power rankings, it was a pretty good ranking except there were other tournaments just as big that pros played in that were not considered for the rankings, so you only had partial ranking view, and not a complete ranking view. (or knowing a player's complete tournament winnings for the year).

 

[memikey]

A pro is someone that doesn't have to gamble to make living expenses. A pro is someone who can play the pro events, have sponsors, commercials, products, etc.

An Amateur is someone that can't make a living off of professional tournament play alone. Gambling doesn't make you a professional anything, except a Gambler.

Pro's in any other sport CAN gamble, but they don't need that money to live.

Just to emphasise some earlier comments......the highlighted bit above displays the wide difference in the underlying fundamental tournament prize money culture between golf and pool and why comparisons on that score are not really valid. Some people seem to get a bit blind-sided by thoughts of multi million dollar PGA pro earnings etc.

Thousands of pro golfers cannot in fact make a living from tournament play either but an amateur in golf is simply someone who can't accept any tournament prize money even if he wins (other than nominal amounts). "Ability", even the ability to make a living off tournament play alone, is largely irrelevant to the point at which an amateur becomes a golf pro.

99.99% of all golf amateurs who play in tournaments which carry significant prize money either sign a waiver in advance that they will not collect any prize money or simply decline the prize money which they win. Most amateur and open events have an entry fee but little or zero prize money, yet they are all full with waiting lists.

Apply that kind of criteria to pool right now and it's probable that there would then be no more big "open" tournaments held by very hard working tour operators like Mike Janis because amateur pool players simply aren't willing to enter tournaments in which they would be ineligible for the prize money.....without those amateur entrants there would be very few viable big prize money open events.

Two entirely different sports with entirely different cultures in respect of the principles of 'pro' and 'amateur' and most attempts at comparison are therefore pointless. Golf didn't get where it is by accident or by some fantastic piece of unearned luck that God didn't hand out to pool. We pool players need to lose this "its all so unfair on us" attitude. Right now, we pool players, both amateur and pro get no more and no less than we are reasonably entitled to expect, if we are honest with ourselves.

The principle of amateur golfers not playing for tournament prize money didn't come about after the PGA Tour became huge. That principle was at the very heart of the sport. On the contrary, it in fact came first and played a large part in establishing the image of the game. The development of the pro side of the game then followed in natural progression from that image as more and more corporate entities liked the idea of being associated with a sport with such an outlook and as more and more parents liked the idea of encouraging their children to spend their time in a golf environment.

None of the above comments about tournament prize money or pro/amateur status should be confused with the different issue of players gambling between each other. That happens in every game and golf is no different. Like most reasonable golfers I gamble with both pros and amateurs at golf in much the same way as I do at pool.

Nor should it be confused with the different issue of the comparison of the relative entertainment values of both sports which could probably fill several threads of debate all on its own

 

[JimS]

All these words and the first answer is he best.... that and... it is I that decide who is a pro. Me. I have the say-so. Period.

 

[B_White]

Fatboy, lets start with Kirkwood. Right now I'm just winging it so please bare with me.
PRO
AAA
AA
A
B
C
D
Beginner

Under this standard (mine) and knowing that we will never have a fully structured system like this without MAJOR funding in cue sports what category would you put Kirkwood in if I rated players on more of a combined level like the one below.

PRO Player = PRO, AAA, AA
Open = A, B
Amateur = C, D, Beginner



Now Mike, are you trying to say all the players in your Amateur events are C and D players?????????

 

[B_White]

Fatboy, lets start with Kirkwood. Right now I'm just winging it so please bare with me.
PRO
AAA
AA
A
B
C
D
Beginner

Under this standard (mine) and knowing that we will never have a fully structured system like this without MAJOR funding in cue sports what category would you put Kirkwood in if I rated players on more of a combined level like the one below.

PRO Player = PRO, AAA, AA
Open = A, B
Amateur = C, D, Beginner



Now Mike, are you trying to say all the players in your Amateur events are C and D players?????????

Bump for answer

 

[instroke75]

Tommy Kennedy!

alot of the BIG GREEN was mine, my point is they were closely matched and anyone could have won, so it appeared. $20,000 isnt that much anyways, if you live in LA, NYC, and dont eat Ramin noodles and own a car if you do that $20K sadly aint gonna go to far. Thats not the point or discussion here anyways. were not discussing what $20,000 means to one person or another person, we can make a thread about that if you like.:smile:


So would have Jason been a Pro because he beat a pro for enough $$$ to live on for some specific period of time?? What if they were playing for $5/game and Jason won $100 20 games ahead-really beating JS bad and then taking his $100 over and beating Efren 10 games of 1P for $100 heads up. Now our Boy Jason Kirkwood just beat 2 Pros bad 30 game winner and has $1000 to show for it minus $125 for beer . is he now a pro?


Suppose I play Harry Platis for $100,000/game 9 ball banks and win $500,000 then fire it at Archie race to 15 9B and Archie blows 2 sets off to me, I just made $1,500,000.

So I'm feeling good about my self and call JS tell him to get his ass of the golf course and come play me some 14.1 to 150 for $50,000 a game, I have 30 barrels and it takes him 15 days to bust me, I never win a game. Now I'm busted, JS has $1,520,000, and Jason has a good buzz going because Bartrum beat Deshane and has been buying the beer.


So I won and lost $1,500,000 am I a pro? or if I kept the $1,500,000 and lived comfortably playing in $100 regonal tournments the rest of my life never cashing once but am still playing and living off my score FROM pool I'm a pro???

no!

This is the problem, tieing $$$ to ones ability to play is a poor way of defining a pro in this day and time.

Tommy Kennedy is a great example! For a short little time he played at a very high speed and won the US open, but unlike JS, I doubt too many people think that TK plays Pro speed! But yet he won one of the biggest tournies in the world!
And furthermore I've bust his ass in his events before, sure hope that doesn't make me a pro! LOL
Jeremy

 

[MikeJanis]

Fatboy, lets start with Kirkwood. Right now I'm just winging it so please bare with me.
PRO
AAA
AA
A
B
C
D
Beginner

Under this standard (mine) and knowing that we will never have a fully structured system like this without MAJOR funding in cue sports what category would you put Kirkwood in if I rated players on more of a combined level like the one below.

PRO Player = PRO, AAA, AA
Open = A, B
Amateur = C, D, Beginner



Now Mike, are you trying to say all the players in your Amateur events are C and D players?????????

Brian, I do not believe anywher in there did I mention anything about the Viking Tour events so please don't ask me if that is what i am saying if I never said anythig on that subject.

Brian, you have several times in other threads misquoted and/or said things that are completely contrary to what I have said an/or meant. I see you are getting the hang of forum behavior from some of the undesirables that have misquoted and/or mistated what you said in some of thes other threads as well. I guess it's just the nature of the best.

Now, if I did comment on your particular question it would be:

No, I didn't say that. However if I did I would have said that under that 8 tier system the goal in the Amateur events would be to have only 3 of the tiers. Those 3 being C, D & Beginner.

Now of course your opinion varies from my opinion as well as many on the forums disagree as to what speed a play is but if there was a "PERFECT SYSTEM" the yes the Viking Tour Amateurs are only designed to hav those 3 - C, D & Beginner tiers in the events.

However, because it is not a perfect syatem and there is no way I can exactly rate every player we have a BACK DOOR system in place which will eventually disqualify players in case I have or they have misquoted their ability. That "Back Door" system is found here: http://vikingcue.com/pages/9ball/amatureeligibility.html

Mj