What's the right hit on the break shot?

Ira, Sang Lee used draw on the break which enabled him to hit less of the red ball. He is the only world class player I ever saw do that. As you know he used low ball on a lot of shots. It's one of the things that made his game so unusual even counterintuitive. The risk, of course, is that low ball is more speed sensitive but he was able to use it to his advantage.

P.S. I hope Mert doesn't mind my contacting you like this since my average has fallen below 1.20.

C.

Hey Chris

Hope you are well. Long time no see. I know that you remember how Sang played.

Yup, even when the shot called for follow, Sang Lee often addressed the cue ball on the equator (or below) on long-distance shots and used the table friction to generate the forward roll and sidespin he needed.

If a player knows how to do this, he can get equivalent amounts of sidespin, without the same kind of deflection that you would expect from using a further tip offset and cueing higher. Of course, as you pointed out, it is very speed and spin sensitive. 20 years ago, he gave me a series of drills to develop this sensitivity and I have yet to master it.

-Ira
 
Mert,

I am glad that my simple drawing allowed you to finally recognize the futility of arguing for the fuller, rather than thinner,-than-half-ball-hit bias on the opening shot. Once one sees the image of the "ghost ball" alongside the desired path of the red ball, the reality is undeniable.

You needn't have been offended when I originally contradicted your post advocating such a full hit which I thought flew in the face of facts.
I was encouraged that you've gotten past most of your issues with me and I was about ready to move on. We all care about the game here.

Yet, since you seem to still feel the need to openly undermine me about my teaching qualifications, of which you know little, I am compelled to address it.

The diagram on this link posted by my friend Ira for example seems perfectly correct, but the cue ball, played with right english, doesn't follow a straight line in real life. It first moves to the left and than back to the right again. I remember feeling like an idiot when Pedro explained it to me at Master billiards years ago."How did I not see this all these years?" Apparently I'm not the only one.

You then implied, rather amusingly, that my diagram evidenced a lack of knowledge about the existence or effects of cue ball swerve. It may have struck you as very odd that my plate, entitled "3-cushion Opening Break Analysis", did not include the path of the cue ball to score the opening break. For the purposes of our discussion on hit, I was focusing on the red ball path over the cue ball path and therefore essentially eliminated all of the cue ball traces from the picture.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/68786535@N05/6260939983/sizes/l/in/photostream/

The dotted, straight line that you decided to take literally - the one that extended through the "ghost ball", and then way past through rail, DIDN'T represent a literal cue ball path - which would have meant a jump shot off the table (!). I would have left the line out altogether, if I didn't wish to graphically highlight the overall red ball cut angle for more emphasis. In fact, had I included a parabolic spline in its place to indicate the swerving cue ball, I would have had to exaggerate its curve (in order for it to be even noticeable at its scale) - and, in doing so, moved even more emphasis away from the topic at hand. In other words, my omissions with respect to details about the cue ball's true path, were not borne upon idiocy, as in your case, but by design.

My closest friends know me to be fanatic about advancing the billiards conversation. I generally try to be as careful as I can in my use of language, terminology and notation within my written descriptions about shots, so that they can be less vague. However, for any successful communication to take place, we must rely on a minimum degree of contextual consistency between publisher and reader - which you missed here.

The diagram I assembled to address your issues this time is not unlike the illustrations that I regularly create for my private students for their study. Early on, I tended to create massive Tufte-inspired, information-dense, billiard illustrations that crammed every thinkable level of detail into a single glorified shot image - leaving very little implicit. While making such artwork is fun, and there are places for presentations like this, my experience has taught me that most learners - who just want to grasp basic concepts, don't wish to be bombarded with too much information simultaneously. To avoid this extreme, I now take pains to purge extraneous details from illustrations to stay within the context of the instruction - this helps the cause of succinctness and the goal of understanding. I suspect that you would have hoped for the densely packed version of the diagram - only so that you could find more things to nitpick on.

Still, please let's leave the teaching part to the masters.

You fail to realize is that being a great player does not necessarily equate to being a good instructor. There are other qualities in a player aside from their billiard average that can make them an effective instructor: technical understanding, working knowledge of the learning process, personal skills, patience, communication skills, passion, etc. Perhaps unbeknownst to you, I have - since the year of Sang's passing - allocated the greater portion of my involvement in the game toward giving lessons. I am driven by the inspiration and guidance that he instilled in me throughout our 13 years of close association together as players and friends. For 50 weeks of each year, year-in and year-out, I conduct weekly private lessons - and have logged over 900 lessons in my career. Teaching professionally has been both extremely challenging and rewarding for me and I am fueled by the fact that I care very much about the material and the progress of my students. Spending this much time on lessons (preparing, delivering, and analyzing) I sometimes feel that I am sacrificing too much time away from my own active billiard-playing pursuits. Regardless, I believe that the introspective process of teaching has helped me to become a more knowledgeable player than I would have been otherwise.

In any case, I'm certainly not about to stop teaching billiards because you say - so you might as well stop repeatedly suggesting it. If you were referring to me trying to teaching you anything, you don't have to worry.

I have seen books in English, German, Dutch, Flemish, French, Turkish and Korean saying the same thing. Most would say 2/3, some 5/8, some 'a little more than half' or even 'half' but less than half is just plain WRONG.

Anyway, if I've changed your mind about advising other forum members to hit the opening break with a 2/3 ball hit, then I've made some progress in the right direction.

-Ira

P.S. While you were busy trying to poke holes in my information, you failed to notice that the path of my red-ball off of the rail shouldn't have traced a perfect reflection - due to the effects of cushion inefficiency, natural roll, or transferred sidespin - which was left out. Also, a couple of posts ago, to support my less-than-half-ball claim, I mentioned that my embedded calculations were based on an estimation that "inside english will throw the object ball 4-6 degrees fuller". You should have dug into me about this slight overstatement of throw effects. Actually, the amount of throw we expect for a natural roll (as opposed to stun) with inside english is two degrees or less*. If this is the case, what other effect (attributable to inside english), would account for the difference that I glossed over in my first thread response? Hint: It also serves to reduce the cut angle.

The answer is cue ball swerve. But it was not the main subject matter at the moment which is why it did not make it to the foreground of the discussion.

P.P.S. Might you, by any chance, be scheduled for a lesson with Torbjorn Blomdahl next week at Carom Cafe? I saw a 'Mert' on our signup sheet last night.


*Reference Dave Alciatore throw research: http://www.the8knights.com/lessons_articles/dr_dave/feb07.pdf
 
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Million Dollar Billiard: Blomdahl creates the "ideal" opening break

My apologies, everyone, for the latest past off-topic exchanges on this thread. They are certainly regrettable and not very positive.

I'll try to make it up by posting something relevant (and rather entertaining) about our topic of opening break shots. This is something I dug up from the video vaults of the 2005 Sang Lee International Open.

I organized a Million Dollar Billiard television promotion for our sponsor (Jana bottled water) where we drew from a hat a member of the audience to attempt to precisely duplicate the opening break shot of Torbjorn Blomdahl for $1,000,000. The project was researched considerably - I spent weeks prior to the event studying the break shot, calculating the theoretical odds of certain leaves with various size targets, etc. The entire scenario was fully documented and the award legally was insured and audited by a third party.

Prior to the actual event, we gave Torbjorn Blomdahl the luxury of locking on to the table by giving him the opportunity to repeatedly practice on the equipment in order to try to produce his "ideal" break shot. I hovered over and behind him during his table tests. Over and over, he used the same stroke and took the same amount of ball with each test attempt - nearly producing the same result each time. He pushed the red ball 3-rails to the middle of the table, leaving it AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to the cue ball after scoring the point - more often than not, he produced a position for another position shot. This is what many good players do when they have a full read on a table and they feel 100% secure that they will score - rather than placing the red ball 'big' at a distance away into the far corner, they leave the red close by which leaves more options open.

In this video, with the television cameras rolling, Blomdahl hits it nearly perfectly. His red ball stopped about six inches short of his ideal position.

Paul Frankel (Professor Q-Ball), in the lab coat, was the laser technician - officially marking Blomdahl's ball positions and precisely placing the targets. Charles Ursitti was the official judge.

The subject, Paul Rubino (a fine cue maker), using a sponsor's cue, had to duplicate the World Champion's ideal break - by making the shot AND landing all the three of his balls onto the same general positions as Blomdahl's attempt (marked with circular sponsor targets). Accomplishing this would have earned him the big prize.

Paul was extremely nervous, which is entirely understandable, given the built up anticipation, the cameras, (and the suspenseful sound effects the production was "sharking" him with), etc. Incidentally, he would have won the expensive billiard cue he shot it with if he only made the point.

The promotion was a success and offered a bit of additional interest, interaction and entertainment for the spectators. 3-cushion players can study this video to see exactly how Torbjorn Blomdahl makes "the perfect" opening break shot.

Note the cut: 13dd, or almost 7/16th ball hit.

Enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtvx-ol7pQw
 
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Ira,
Yes, I'm thankful to Michael Kang for arranging the event next week at Carom. This is the kind of thing that needs to be supported. I signed up for it as soon as I saw the info online. If I can make it I'll go myself, otherwise I will give it to one of my fellow 3 cushion players as a gift.

This kind of clinic is needed badly in the US and we will share whatever we learn from the grand master with everybody interested. I had the opportunity to hear a few words about 3 cushion from Semih, Tayfun, Naci and of course our Pedro at several occasions and got a lot of 'thank you's from friends I shared them with. This game will only get somewhere in this country if we forward the correct knowledge to each other without the 'I know it all' attitude.

I brought up the question of 'how much ball to hit on the break shot' at Spin City, to see if there are different opinions out there. Three people sad 3/4, three people 2/3 and one person 1/2. One of them is an A player (he sad 3/4) the others are B players, all playing the game for 20+ years and apparently all sharing my 'idiocy' by not agreeing with you. When I asked them what day think about hitting 1/3, I got the following responses.
-Are you gonna draw or somethin'?
-What are you gonna snap the ball?
-How is the red going to go to the middle of the table?

I'm sure you have an answer to every question out there. I'm just going to ask you to keep your selection of words within civilized conversation. What I'm wondering right now is " Is there anybody out there other than you (and your students) who thinks the right hit is 1/3?" and "Are you at all open to the possibility that this thread started with a very simple question that has a simple correct answer and instead of benefiting from it yourself, with your confused, pseudoscientific, over-analysis you made it actually impossible for others to do so?"

I will try to make it to carom next week and I hope I'll see you there.
 
Only you said 1/3 ball

Mert,

I'm glad to see that you are still digging for the truth. I will try to answer you plainly.

Obviously, I do not have the answers to all billiard questions which is why I continue to study. But, I am confident about the answer to this one, which is why I've been sharing the facts that I know.

I brought up the question of 'how much ball to hit on the break shot' at Spin City, to see if there are different opinions out there. Three people sad 3/4, three people 2/3 and one person 1/2. One of them is an A player (he sad 3/4) the others are B players, all playing the game for 20+ years and apparently all sharing my 'idiocy' by not agreeing with you.

If you obtain your information through polling you can't expect to get a scientifically true answer. It sounds to me that you have conducted a different poll: 'How much ball do YOU AIM AT on the break shot?' which might give us indications about relative deflection of each individual player's shafts. Based upon their answers, it suggests to me that the 3/4 ball aimers are probably shooting with higher deflection shafts than the 2/3 ball aimers, and that the 1/2 ball aimer may have the lowest deflection cue of them all. Even still, we can't know for certain because we have no idea where they are intending to hit the red - which lies at the heart of tracing the true hit. The next time you are at Spin City, try to follow up with these same players and please ask them, on my behalf, to show you where they intend to cut the red ball. Sharing this key information with the group will be very enlightening.

It's been reasoned that the answer can't be 2/3 ball - and 3/4 ball represents an EVEN FULLER hit - so that must be even worse advice for telling students.

BTW, there are many players that have played twice longer than that (40+ years), and while their long experience allows them to score the break shot very easily, they are not well equipped (short of live demonstration) to teach another player to do the same, especially in written form.

When I asked them what day think about hitting 1/3, I got the following responses.
-Are you gonna draw or somethin'?
-What are you gonna snap the ball?
-How is the red going to go to the middle of the table?
...
" Is there anybody out there other than you (and your students) who thinks the right hit is 1/3?"

Be very careful what you say. Hitting the ball 1/3 thick is perhaps the worst idea. You are the only one who brings it up.

It's all on past record here on the thread, so I'll repeat myself to be extra clear: You are the only one who has suggested anything about hitting the break with 1/3 ball.

Hitting the opening break with 1/3 ball is NOT something I have ever recommended or taught. If you have gone around telling people that I advocated to hit 1/3 ball on the break shot, then you have lied. We'll find out.

"Are you at all open to the possibility that this thread started with a very simple question that has a simple correct answer and instead of benefiting from it yourself, with your confused, pseudoscientific, over-analysis you made it actually impossible for others to do so?"

The answers that I posted on this forum were for the benefit of dogloose and other earnest players who pose the question. This question DOES have correct and incorrect answers. If the fractional ball hit numbers don't mean anything to you yet, then please consult the diagram (below) to see what each fractional hit translates to in terms of where the red ball cuts. Generally speaking, nearly-half-ball or a shade thinner is evidently what all top players are doing. But don't take my word for it*(see videos below). Note that they all cut the red ball LESS THAN 1.5 diamonds from the corner - try doing that with 2/3 or 3/4 ball!

Here's the breakdown and some suggestions why:

CORRECT ANSWER:
- 9/16 hit could work (a shade more than half). The red banks to the long rail for good positions. On fast tables a head-on kiss with the red sometimes occurs near the point.
- 1/2 ball works well. Less kissy and good 3-rail position.
- 7/16 hit is works best (a shade less than half). Least kissy since red banks to long rail and the cue ball passes behind it. This is extremely common amongst top players as seen on the videos that I referenced.
- 3/8 hit still workable. But anything less makes the cue miss (too long) or creates the risk of a kiss with the red near the 3rd rail (cue ball).

WRONG ANSWER:
- 3/4 hit is much too full for scoring or position.
- 2/3 hit can score, but is too full for good position.
- 5/8 hit can score, is still too full (because the red will bank twice (short-short) across the length of the table
- 1/3 is far too thin for scoring or position.


Mert, just because fractional ball hits is something you are confused about for the moment, doesn't make it pseudoscientific. I don't consider ball quantities as vague notions to be thrown around carelessly. They mean something tangible and are useful tools for discussing billiards in words or pictures. In order to hold a helpful dialog between players, it helps to solidify what we mean by fractional ball amounts. Only then can a conversation about hits in forums such as these take place.

The diagram that I provided was designed to bridge this gap for you. It talks about the right hit in terms of where the cue ball should best make contact with the red - in order to score. How to deliver it there is a deeper subject (which deals with deflection and swerve).

Again, my diagram:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68786535@N05/6260939983/sizes/l/in/photostream/

Note carefully (into the upper right corner), where it says NOT to cut the ball less than 3/8th thin. (1/3 is less than 3/8)

I will try to make it to carom next week and I hope I'll see you there.

Then you may look for me. I'm very easy to find there and I am willing and able to explain all of this material in very unscientific terms (i.e. where to best cut the red). Hopefully, my point was made clear enough this time around - so you and I can talk about something else.

-Ira


Torbjorn Blomdahl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_1cFeYqezg&t=0m10s cut to 13dd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe9p8cGoSA0&t=0m41s cut to 12dd

Sang Lee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igraSJcyBnw&t=0m30s cut to 13dd

Eddy Merckx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-FT4N6jMls&t=1m47s cut to 13dd

Daniel Sanchez
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmB1ah4MbEU&t=0m34s cut to 13dd

Pedro Piedrabuena
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIuNdfo3xAQ&t=0m55s cut to 13dd

Frederic Caudron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-WE0aNk4LE&t=0m45s cut to 14dd

Raymond Ceulemans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jprgt8VxTuA&t=1m3s cut to 12dd

Peter DeBacker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzOTXzFOjO8&t=1m30s cut to 14dd
 
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Ira,
Yes, I'm thankful to Michael Kang for arranging the event next week at Carom. This is the kind of thing that needs to be supported. I signed up for it as soon as I saw the info online. If I can make it I'll go myself, otherwise I will give it to one of my fellow 3 cushion players as a gift.

Mert, Feel free to thank me as well. ;)
 
Congrats on your fist-found US Open win

If I may be so bold as to ask, how many of the top professional athletes in any discipline have a coach or master who plays better then they. I mean of course to say of the elite players, I think they continue and always have learned from people who do not play at their level.

Ira made a great point in his original response stating that many masters of the game have trouble articulating their practices in a way that's concrete and discernible by the general audiences of students in and out of the game.

I will say this though Mert, from personal experience, you will be hard pressed to find a better instructor for the true and deepest levels of cue sports in general than Ira and his aforementioned collaborator Robert Raiford. I, without knowledge of what I did correctly in this life or the past, have access to both as instructors and count my recent success in the pool world as result of their tutelage.

These successes being:

2010 ACUI Collegiate National Championships
2010 US Amateur Championships
2011 ACUI Collegiate National Championships

I know for certain that these are just small building blocks leading to much larger and higher profile successes. I'd enjoy reflecting back on this thread in 5 or so years to share what my then current successes will be.

Hopefully there are those out there who read this thread and seek out the information that Ira so willingly gives.

All the best,

Raymond Linares

Thanks for the generous words, Raymond. Hope all is well and congrats on your 11-6 (come from behind) win at the US Open. Keep going, Champion!

-Ira
 
Whether "about" 2/3 is too much... or exactly 3/8 is too little... or 9/16 (or whatever) is just right to drive the red ball correctly... may depend not only on physics and geometry, but on those myriad factors that come in to play as Dan has pointed out... not to mention consistent aiming and stroke skills.

If I were truly confident in my stroke and aim... I might try to seek out the precision described by iralee... But at the table... I am still just a beginner... So I guess I will judge my results by the path the balls travel... and whether I can begin making the shot with position with any consistency. Perhaps I will discover what is right for me... and maybe even determine what that percentage hit really is... so I can pass it along...

Doug,

I am certain that you can hone-in on the level of accuracy you desire if you start narrowing down where you are cutting the red. If the ball fractions throw you off, here's an example of a productive training exercise you can apply:

Imagine three (3) regions "F", "P", and "T" on far short rail for the red ball to cut directly toward.

"T" is the region one diamond or less from the corner. ("Thin")
"P" is the half-diamond region between the 1st diamond and 1.5 diamonds. ("Position")
"F" is the region between 1.5 diamonds and the 2nd diamond. ("Full")

Focus on cutting the red into region "P" while rolling the cue ball with inside english - with an even speed that will leave the cue ball behind the line on your side of the table.

- If the red misses region "P" and hits region "T", then say "Too Thin". Never mind the stroke.
- If the red misses region "P" and hits region "F", then say "Too Full". Never mind the stroke.
- If the red meets region "P"
a) and you missed the shot short, next time add a bit more inside english.
b) and you missed the shot long, next time use a bit less inside english.

It's a start toward narrowing down your hits that will help you develop confidence with your cueing speed and use of inside spin in a much more efficient manner - as compared with using the point-scored as your only success indication within a blind trial-and-error approach.

Hope this helps.

-Ira
 
So here's an update... Today I played my friend Yezid at Paris Bida in Houston. The 10' heated tables there are Gabriels. First I win the lag... Good start! Next I line up the break shot... and make it!!! Don't know exactly what the hit was... But I played to bank the red 3 rails and I did!!! BUT... I did get a slight kiss just after I made the point... Still... I was left with good position for a short-table short-angle shot which I scored. Just missed my 3rd shot for a run of 2 to start the game. I am very pleased. (I also ended up the winner today...) so thanks to this great thread I am much more aware of what I need to do... And how to do it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
So here's an update... Today I played my friend Yezid at Paris Bida in Houston. The 10' heated tables there are Gabriels. First I win the lag... Good start! Next I line up the break shot... and make it!!! Don't know exactly what the hit was... But I played to bank the red 3 rails and I did!!! BUT... I did get a slight kiss just after I made the point... Still... I was left with good position for a short-table short-angle shot which I scored. Just missed my 3rd shot for a run of 2 to start the game. I am very pleased. (I also ended up the winner today...) so thanks to this great thread I am much more aware of what I need to do... And how to do it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Glad to hear it. Keep paying attention to your precision hit. The consistency of your stroke will steadily improve.

-Ira
 
search the book "berekenend biljarten" by jean verworst.
Oke it's dutch beth well illustraide.
Sorry for my bad englisch ik live in Belguim
 
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