What's the right hit on the break shot?

[dogloose]

I have been playing 3C for almost a year. I've bought about every book I could find... watched everything on YouTube I could find... even joined Kozoom to watch even more great players. Nowhere have I found a clear and consistent description on the best-way/right-way to play the break shot (on a ten foot heated table!)

I'd like to ask those on the forum to help me out by describing in some detail how it's done. In other words - can you explain where to cue the ball... high, at the equator, low??? And how much English to apply... and whether to jab it, or follow through... AND especially how much of the red ball to hit - 1/4, 3/8, 40%???

I've seen the top players make the shot almost every time they step up... But never from an angle that reveals what I've asked. And I've noticed that local players are not consistent with either their hit or their results. My own experience has resulted in everything from making the shot with position to getting kissed out. But I'm never confident shooting when I'm lucky enough to win the lag.

So... Is there a recommended best practice, especially for a beginner like me?


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[Bob Jewett]

I use about equal amounts of side and follow. As for the fullness of the hit, just watch where the red ball goes when the pros shoot the shot. That tells you exactly how much of the ball they are hitting. Another thing you may want to notice is the timing of the cue ball at the third cushion relative to the red ball. Is the red first or second to pass? More english on the cue ball will make it go faster.

 

[TJDave]

I forget the author...

But the joke goes something like this:

Break shot?

How would I know...I've never won the lag.

 

[dogloose]

Well... thanks Bob Jewett for the only posted response to my question... I am surprised it did not generate a few more answers. However, I am happy to say that one very generous individual called me on the phone and spent considerable time explaining exactly how to approach the break shot for best results.

Now notice I didn't say I have solved the break shot... or had the end-all method revealed... I have learned what I believe is the right approach... one that will yield the best results over many attempts.

First.. Both the type of table and the condition of the cloth must be considered. A high quality, well maintained 10' heated table is much different than older non-heated 10' tables... or any of the many 9' tables that you may find. And there are some 10' tables that "play shorter" than others... but that is probably another topic to debate. Since I play on newer Gabriels tables... that is what we discussed. As for the cloth... if it is more than 6 months old it may cause the cue ball to behave differntly than on new cloth. Knowing this you may have to adjust your shot by adding more English on older cloth. This is something you should try to determine with some practice shots before the game.

Now... as for the shot itself... Here is what it looks like if you are a right hand shooter, shooting from the right hand spot toward the upper left corner of the table (the way I shoot.) Line up your cue with 2 o'clock English (I think that is similar to Bob's advice of equal amounts of side and follow.) The exact amount will be governed by your knowledge of the playing conditions. However, Bob's advice about the red ball... to watch what the pros do... while correct, didn't give me the precision I was looking. So my generous caller was much more calibrated. In fact, he went on to add an even more significant dimension -- beyond just making the shot. He advised to play position for the next shot as well. And in so doing, your break shot will be the correct foundation for not just one... but multiple points.

In order to obtain good position off the break... you want to move the second object ball to a corner. In most cases that occurs naturally. But... you also want to play position by driving the red ball around the table to a point along the long rail of the corner where the second object ball ends up. The key is how you strike the red ball. Hit the red ball correctly... and both the billiard and position will follow. So the correct approach is to strike the red ball "about" two thirds full with a pop stroke... a short follow through. The cue ball will have a tendency to go forward, run up to the top left corner, and travel three rails striking the second object ball driving it to the lower left corner so it will be a "big ball" for the next shot. As for the red ball... when struck correctly it will strike the short rail just left of the first diamond, travel to the long rail, then the bottom short rail, and up toward the top left corner... stopping somewhere up table giving several choices for the next shot.

One other point to make... the timing of the balls is important... as Bob noted. I have watched the pros perform this shot exactly as my mentor described... so I will add that the red ball will strike the first and second cushion and pass before the cue ball hits the third cushion... but the cue ball will strike the second object ball before the red ball passes back up the table.

I took this advice to one of the many local billiard rooms here in Houston that has Gabriels tables... and applying the information I was able to make repeated break shots AND obtain good position for the next shot. I know that the few minutes I spent on the phone... and applying what I learned in practice... has already improved my confidence and my play.

So... are you wondering who the mystery caller was? I am sure with a little thought you can guess... but I am proud to reveal it was none other than my friend Mr. 3Cushion himself - Bill Smith. Perhaps the emphasis on postion play gave it away... but after all, strong fundamentals and a consistent plan leads to excellence in almost any endeavor.

Thanks Bill... I hope I got it right... I transcribed it from memory and only embellished slightly!

Of course any further comments are welcome...

 

[mert]

The right hit is 5/8 or 2/3. You will still make it if you hit more ball, but with bad position.
The amount of the english depends the table and cloth, always above center.
It's a speed sensitive shot as in all shots where your ball goes to a corner.

The most common mistake is to lift the back of the stick: You will miss too long no matter how little english you use and start hitting super hard to shorten the ball. That's how everybody hits it in my town.

With soft speed and the right amount of english it can be made 9 out of 10. Even by a lousy hitter like me.

 

[dogloose]

Thanks mert... 5/8 hit also works and certainly can occur even when you line up for 2/3 due to the net effect of push vs spin. (5/8 = 38.44 mm, 2/3 = 41.00 mm ... A difference less than 1/4 of your tip!) good point about raising the cue butt. I will add "level cue" as well when I practice the shot.


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[iralee]

Should be LESS than 1/2 ball

I have been playing 3C for almost a year. I've bought about every book I could find... watched everything on YouTube I could find... even joined Kozoom to watch even more great players. Nowhere have I found a clear and consistent description on the best-way/right-way to play the break shot (on a ten foot heated table!)

I'd like to ask those on the forum to help me out by describing in some detail how it's done. In other words - can you explain where to cue the ball... high, at the equator, low??? And how much English to apply... and whether to jab it, or follow through... AND especially how much of the red ball to hit - 1/4, 3/8, 40%???

I've seen the top players make the shot almost every time they step up... But never from an angle that reveals what I've asked. And I've noticed that local players are not consistent with either their hit or their results. My own experience has resulted in everything from making the shot with position to getting kissed out. But I'm never confident shooting when I'm lucky enough to win the lag.

So... Is there a recommended best practice, especially for a beginner like me?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The exact hit to score on the break shot depends on the particular table conditions - but should be less than 1/2 ball.

While one may score the opening shot by striking 5/8 or 2/3 ball, doing so certainly will make it a) harder to score and b) very difficult to produce the "classical" position leave. By hitting 2/3 ball, you will probably double bank the red ball two short rails (drive the red ball: short, short) into the opposite corner - where there is a bigger risk leaving the object balls on an undesirable diagonal position.

The optimal hit, cuts the red ball to bank toward the middle of the long rail. To achieve this, one must evidently strike the red ball much closer to 7/16ths of a ball than 2/3rd of a ball. Note: 3/8ths can work, under the right conditions, and 1/4 ball is too thin under most any circumstances.

In terms of the first rail, this means we should see the red ball driven to near (or slightly less than) 1.5 diamonds from the corner. The inside english will throw the object ball about 4-6 degrees fuller, so one must account for this. Also, bear in mind that there is a slight 'checkside' english transferred to the red ball that will tend to bank the red shorter (risking the short-short bad-position pattern). Cutting less than 1/2 ball helps to counter all of this.

Especially on fast tables, driving the red ball too full and too fast creates a head-to-head kiss-out with the red very near the point. To better to avoid any chance of kisses with the red, drive it to arrive around the 2nd cushion slightly before the cue ball does.

Watch videos of the top players. Most approach the break shot with a less than 1/2 ball hit while rolling the ball softly and naturally, with inside english. When a player is really in tune with the table (see Caudron, Jaspers, Blomdahl), they bank the red three rails (always short, long, short) and gently enough so that it stops in the MIDDLE of the table - looking to run 3, 4 or more...

Due to the deflection of their cue, many players AIM the shot fuller than 1/2 ball and score with a thinner than 1/2 ball hit - then, perhaps, get confused about the actual hit they've achieved. If you measure the path of the red ball carefully, you can objectively deduce the exact hit made on the red.

Hope that helps.

-Ira

 

[McChen]

that is a very good point ira makes....it's always confusing to me to when people describe to me how full to hit/aim the ball. i never know if they mean that's how they aim the shot or that's the actual contact, which could be different due to deflection, swerve, etc. i like it better when someone tells me where to cut the object ball or a target on the rail for the cueball, it's much more clear.

 

[mert]

This is both, funny and sad at the same time, because hitting the break shot is not a subject to discussion. It has been taught by grand masters to their students as a rule for generations.

I'm attaching a page from the Austrian champion Andreas Efler's book, who comes from this great European billiard tradition (I hope Andreas doesn't mind).

To save you the trouble of translating it from German, I'll tell you what it says: HIT 2/3 BALL! I have seen Andreas run 15 and out in set style a couple times by the way. So I guess he knows the break shot better than Iralee. I don't know if it is the same person on this blog but there was an Ira Lee who played against him in a Sang Lee Int. tournament. He lost 30-12 or something like that. I don't know what the result would have been if it wasn't the table Ira plays on every day and Andreas wasn't dealing with jet lag.

I have seen books in English, German, Dutch, Flemish, French, Turkish and Korean saying the same thing. Most would say 2/3, some 5/8, some 'a little more than half' or even 'half' but less than half is just plain WRONG.

Long story short, my advice to new players: Don't take advice from unqualified people. There are a lot of 0.600 players dying to teach out there. May be that's why billiards isn't getting anywhere in this country. Buy a book, and make sure it's written by a champion or at least a 1.200+ player.

 

[Bob Jewett]

This is both, funny and sad at the same time, because hitting the break shot is not a subject to discussion. ...

Yes, we simply need to look at an actual break shot and see what angle the red ball goes. This tells us immediately how full the red ball was struck. (I looked briefly for a good break shot on Youtube but could not find one. Anyone know of one?) The calculation is slightly complicated by the fact that there is a little throw on the red and a little hold-up on the first cushion it hits.

From Efler's diagram (which is not particularly accurate), and ignoring throw/reverse, the illustrated hit is 0.625 full or 5/8. Including throw/reverse, it needs to be more like 9/16. If the red ball hits other than 2 diamonds on the long rail from the second corner, then the angle is different as is the required fullness. The calculation itself is simple for anyone who remembers a little bit of trigonometry or geometry.

I don't much like the appeal to the authority of the "masters" because masters have put a lot of junk into print. Maurice Vignaux (who is about as big as a master gets) recommends a 16-mm tip for normal play.

 

[dan bennicas]

The answer is simple! Don't overtheorize!, Don't overthink the solution, the conditions are rarely the same. And what works for one may not work for another. Your stroke is different from others. Not all carom tables play the same and the atmospheric conditions are never the same from one day to another. There are many other factors. Is the tide coming or going? You don't need to be a International Grand Master to Know what is the best for you!
'SHOOT STRAIGHT WITH ANGLES'
Dan Bennicas

 

[iralee]

Opening Break Analysis

This is both, funny and sad at the same time, because hitting the break shot is not a subject to discussion. It has been taught by grand masters to their students as a rule for generations.

I'm attaching a page from the Austrian champion Andreas Efler's book, who comes from this great European billiard tradition (I hope Andreas doesn't mind).

To save you the trouble of translating it from German, I'll tell you what it says: HIT 2/3 BALL! I have seen Andreas run 15 and out in set style a couple times by the way. So I guess he knows the break shot better than Iralee. I don't know if it is the same person on this blog but there was an Ira Lee who played against him in a Sang Lee Int. tournament. He lost 30-12 or something like that. I don't know what the result would have been if it wasn't the table Ira plays on every day and Andreas wasn't dealing with jet lag.

I have seen books in English, German, Dutch, Flemish, French, Turkish and Korean saying the same thing. Most would say 2/3, some 5/8, some 'a little more than half' or even 'half' but less than half is just plain WRONG.

Long story short, my advice to new players: Don't take advice from unqualified people. There are a lot of 0.600 players dying to teach out there. May be that's why billiards isn't getting anywhere in this country. Buy a book, and make sure it's written by a champion or at least a 1.200+ player.

Mert,

You have gotten many facts wrong. Also, attempting to convince others that I am not a world-beater is somewhat unnecessary since everyone already knows this, but more so because it doesn't relate to facts about knowable details concerning the opening break in 3-cushion.

Based upon your response, I suspect that you may never be convinced to alter your mindset from what you have originally read about the break shot - despite evidence or reasonable explanation. Still, especially for the benefit of dogloose and others on this forum, I will try. I will show that 2/3 ball is not a recommended hit on the opening break in 3-cushion and that the more desirable approach is to take near 1/2 ball - OR LESS.

As students of the game, we ought to think about billiards critically - especially on matters that we are readily able to, such as "is the opening break best taken with more, or less than 1/2 ball". "Hits" are not vague opinions - but knowable things and it is possible to be specific about them. Appealing to the authority of "the masters", as Bob Jewett points out, isn't always the best policy for uncovering answers to questions that must rely on how well they are able to articulate technical details. Let me add to this and mention that great masters can guide us in other valuable ways, and we should revere the sage advice that they pass down to us.

Today, Oct 19th, marks the 7th year of the passing of one of my closest friends and mentor, Sang Lee. Perhaps the single most important lesson that I learned from him was this: "Talk about billiards." In other words, particulars about any billiard shot, can be - and must be - subject to open discussion and analysis. We need more, not less, intelligent conversation about billiards. A .6 player can teach a .5 player, a .5 player can teach a .3 player and so on. A positive dialog is what will improve the condition of billiards everywhere in the world.

The second most important Sang Lee lesson is this: "The table never lies." This means that we can take personal responsibility to get complete answers to billiard questions by studying the paths of the balls and increase the level of our awareness of the table. Printed billiard systems, even when they are published by former champions, are not guaranteed to be infallible.

The opening break is a good starting point for discussion, but before I get into my analysis, let me indulge on an issue you brought up...

Because I had no recollection of your flawed version of events with Andreas, I quickly fact-checked your account of my tournament match with him. Luckily, I had the records on hand for the 2008 Sang Lee Intl Open (since I am the IraLee that also promoted and produced the event). I indeed lost to Andreas, but probably by less of a margin than you may have preferred - I scored 27 points to his 40 in 32 innings (with a high run of 5 and he, with a high run of 7). For you, a bad loss by me to a champion may seem like a failure, but from my point of view, it was a result that I won't say I was particularly depressed about.

Incidentally, not long after my match with Andreas, one of my closest friends and billiard collaborators, Rob Raiford, put together a terrific performance against the same player and managed to upset him 40-30 in 38 innings. DO NOTE that this particular outcome does not take ANYTHING away from Andreas Efler. Andreas is a great player and a World Champion. He is a true gentleman of our sport who, as it happens, I am honored to call my friend (we have collaborated on some great billiard projects in the past).

I'm not one to make excuses for my play - and no player ever should. Despite my many losses, I was pleased and proud of my overall tournament performance. Given the fact that I was busy running the event, sprinting around Carom Cafe like a headless chicken, managing the film crews for the international broadcast, and burning my candle from both ends on no more than 3 hours of sleep every night for the entire week as well as the week prior - I recall nothing else but being ECSTATIC when I advanced past a challenging flight to qualify into the Semifinal round and a chance to compete with some of my heros. My flight was an amazing group consisting of: Blomdahl, Horn, Efler, Torres, Panino, Coklu, Kim, Raiford, and Switala. In this stage, no, I did not win a match, but the memory of my good experience lingers very strongly in my mind. The 2008 Sang Lee International Open was our most successful event - boasting the highest prize fund and strongest 3-cushion field ever to take place on US soil. I'm sure that Sang Lee would have been proud of it all.

But I digress... back to the substance of this thread:

Here is a diagram that shows how to deduce the fractional ball hit given the measured direction of the red ball on the opening break. The diagram is largely self-explanatory, and you can download it at full resolution to see all of the details.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/68786535@N05/6260939983/sizes/l/in/photostream/

Efler's artwork contains the ball-paths of a near-half-ball hit (9/16, as Jewett points out) which serves to banks the red into the long-rail relatively deep into the corner for position play. In defense of his book, his German, which seems to translate to "approximately 2/3 ball" (thank you Google) most probably implied the aim he envisioned for the shot (taking into account a high deflection cue). Please note that Efler is certain to include a very detailed qualitative description of exactly how to pass the kiss near the long rail - which is the critical take-away point of his instruction. Not so much the literal interpretation of his 2/3 ball hit description.

Incidentally, on fast new cloth, a 9/16th hit risks a head-on-kiss with the red very close to the score and I see most players avoid the problem completely by hitting thinner - as you may witness by watching the attached videos: 1/2 ball OR LESS ball hits are most commonly used to avoid any kisses and insure the position. Thinner than 3/8 ball risks a kiss with the red after 3-cushions near the long rail.

Many ball hits and degrees of spin (so long as they are inside english) may be used to score, the question is: which is the best strategy?

I have included various videos of players making the breakshot "easily", naturally (natural roll) and with decent position - each video link is 'cued' up to the moment of the break shot for your convenience. In each video, mind the contact point of the red on the short cushion. I denote, next to each attempt, the "dd" (decidiamond) ruler measurement as per the attached diagram.

Torbjorn Blomdahl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_1cFeYqezg&t=0m10s cut to 13dd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe9p8cGoSA0&t=0m41s cut to 12dd

Sang Lee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igraSJcyBnw&t=0m30s cut to 13dd

Eddy Merckx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-FT4N6jMls&t=1m47s cut to 13dd

Daniel Sanchez
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmB1ah4MbEU&t=0m34s cut to 13dd

Pedro Piedrabuena
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIuNdfo3xAQ&t=0m55s cut to 13dd

Frederic Caudron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-WE0aNk4LE&t=0m45s cut to 14dd

Raymond Ceulemans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jprgt8VxTuA&t=1m3s cut to 12dd

Peter DeBacker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzOTXzFOjO8&t=1m30s cut to 14dd


And dead last, for sentimental reasons on this day, I add an example of MY break shot - in the only video that I have of me playing against my teacher, Sang (RIP). Note that I almost cut the ball too thinly (near 3/8 ball) and get a small 'friendly' kiss (after I score the point). Voila! Position.

Ira Lee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tIbUBagegg&t=3m14s cut to 11dd


Mert, if you are ever at Carom Cafe and you will be so gracious as to entertain a continued discussion on this topic with me, I will remain more than happy to show you exactly what I mean and how I arrived at my conclusions, in person.

I welcome any comments about my analysis.

-Ira

 

[iralee]

over and under-theorizing

The answer is simple! Don't overtheorize!, Don't overthink the solution, the conditions are rarely the same. And what works for one may not work for another. Your stroke is different from others. Not all carom tables play the same and the atmospheric conditions are never the same from one day to another. There are many other factors. Is the tide coming or going? You don't need to be a International Grand Master to Know what is the best for you!
'SHOOT STRAIGHT WITH ANGLES'
Dan Bennicas

Dan,

I agree wholeheartedly with you that it is better not to "overthink" shots when we compete. It is something I personally struggle to balance and I think I'm getting better at it with each passing year. I must admit that, in practice, Keep-It-Simple-Stupid is hard to apply in a game so damn brutal.

To be certain, it is the rich depth of options, our ability to intuitively read table personalities, and deep-seeded personal preferences that define our shot selection and elevates our game to an art form. You allude to all of these wonderful dimensions of the game that all players must face - and I am totally with you.

However, as we study, my opinion is that we shouldn't run away from knowing precisely where we are striking the balls. When discussing the particulars of a precision shot, no billiard player in any other discipline (and in their right mind) would honestly dismiss the huge differential between say a 2/3 ball hit and a 7/16 ball hit.

All too often - even while discussing set shots - I find that many fellow 3-cushion players shy away from striving to pinpoint the quality and quantity of their hit. The failure often translates into learning problems because it becomes difficult to attribute the source of errors when analyzing misses. Was my miss traceable to the hit, the speed, the sidespin, the stickyness of the table bed, rails or balls? It all gets hand-waived and lumped under: "the wrong stroke", try again (and again, and again).

Fortunately, the easiest problem to diagnose is the hit - but this information is only accessible if one develops a clear idea about where they intend to drive the first ball. The fact remains, that if a person strikes an opening break shot with 2/3 ball hit, he (she) will bank the red ball twice across the length of the table. If this is not to be considered a recommended approach, then we need a way to convey this precisely.

At the very least, if we are unable or unwilling to make a definite and clear distinction between a 2/3 ball hit and a less-than-half-ball-hit - as on the opening break, then our dialog will continue to remain extremely primitive. I know we can do much, much better than this inside of our billiard conversations.

-Ira

 

[Jerseychris]

Ira, Sang Lee used draw on the break which enabled him to hit less of the red ball. He is the only world class player I ever saw do that. As you know he used low ball on a lot of shots. It's one of the things that made his game so unusual even counterintuitive. The risk, of course, is that low ball is more speed sensitive but he was able to use it to his advantage.

P.S. I hope Mert doesn't mind my contacting you like this since my average has fallen below 1.20.

C.

 

[dan bennicas]

Ira,
Thank you for that very professional and articulate interpertation of the subject matter. I have watched you play many times on videos and I have always enjoyed seeing you play. You are truly a great player, a gentleman and a scholar of the game of Billiards, hats off to you!. I am looking forward to seeing you play in person one of these days and I will always remain your fan.
Respectfully,Dan

 

[dogloose]

Well... thanks to all those who posted a response... it turned in to quite a lively discussion... I originally posted the question hoping to receive some advice that might improve my game... and I believe I have received that... and learned some good ideas about how to approach the break shot.

One thing that I noticed in this discussion... apart from the debate over the correct ball thickness to hit... there seems to be agreement as to both the objective (make the shot with position) AND the path the balls should follow to achieve that objective (red ball three rails around.)

Both the diagram from the Efler book provided by mert and the diagram provided by iralee suggest similar patterns for the red ball. This was also explained to me in my call from Bill Smith. Drive the red ball left of the first diamond to travel three rails and arrive up table near the left long rail... miss the kiss as the cue ball scores the billiard and drives the second object ball toward the lower left corner (big ball area.)

Whether "about" 2/3 is too much... or exactly 3/8 is too little... or 9/16 (or whatever) is just right to drive the red ball correctly... may depend not only on physics and geometry, but on those myriad factors that come in to play as Dan has pointed out... not to mention consistent aiming and stroke skills.

If I were truly confident in my stroke and aim... I might try to seek out the precision described by iralee... But at the table... I am still just a beginner... So I guess I will judge my results by the path the balls travel... and whether I can begin making the shot with position with any consistency. Perhaps I will discover what is right for me... and maybe even determine what that percentage hit really is... so I can pass it along...

 

[mert]

I'd like to make one thing clear here. There's not too many of us around anymore and I appreciate every person who is interested in this beautiful game. Regardless of their level of performance... What we need is not more professionals but more beginners, before we are extinct.

Don't get offended however when I say the game should be taught by people who have mastered it. It is a very complex, enigmatic game. Nothing in this game is as simple as it looks.

The diagram on this link http://www.flickr.com/photos/6878653...n/photostream/
posted by my friend Ira for example seems perfectly correct, but the cue ball, played with right english, doesn't follow a straight line in real life. It first moves to the left and than back to the right again. I remember feeling like an idiot when Pedro explained it to me at Master billiards years ago."How did I not see this all these years?" Apparently I'm not the only one.

Ira, if I have an opportunity to play against a world class player one day, I hope I can show the courage and fight you did. I'll be happy to chat next time I'm at carom. Still, please let's leave the teaching part to the masters. But not to Vignaux please Bob, that book was published in the 1880's. Let's stick to the last 25 years I would say. Hoppe has a few funny diagrams in his book also.
And Chris, I never minded you playing less than 1.200 :smile:

 

[rayshooter22]

Ira,
Thank you for that very professional and articulate interpertation of the subject matter. I have watched you play many times on videos and I have always enjoyed seeing you play. You are truly a great player, a gentleman and a scholar of the game of Billiards, hats off to you!. I am looking forward to seeing you play in person one of these days and I will always remain your fan.
Respectfully,Dan

His post does not do the man justice. Ira is and continues to be one of the nicest and intellectual people in the billiard world. Having, however briefly, had close contact with Ira on a personal and intellectual level relating to billiards and pool at some of the deeper levels, I'd advise that you receive his message with open arms and place it high on your list of valued opinions.

Ira's insight is valued by many people in and out of his inner circle and if the completeness of his response is in any way a depiction of how he treats people and students on a daily basis, then you can do nothing but smile and say thank you. Enjoy the message and hopefully we can continue to carry on the legacy of Sang's philosophy...

talk about pool...

Yours,

Raymond Linares

 

[rayshooter22]

I wonder...

I'd like to make one thing clear here. There's not too many of us around anymore and I appreciate every person who is interested in this beautiful game. Regardless of their level of performance... What we need is not more professionals but more beginners, before we are extinct.

Don't get offended however when I say the game should be taught by people who have mastered it. It is a very complex, enigmatic game. Nothing in this game is as simple as it looks.

The diagram on this link http://www.flickr.com/photos/6878653...n/photostream/
posted by my friend Ira for example seems perfectly correct, but the cue ball, played with right english, doesn't follow a straight line in real life. It first moves to the left and than back to the right again. I remember feeling like an idiot when Pedro explained it to me at Master billiards years ago."How did I not see this all these years?" Apparently I'm not the only one.

Ira, if I have an opportunity to play against a world class player one day, I hope I can show the courage and fight you did. I'll be happy to chat next time I'm at carom. Still, please let's leave the teaching part to the masters. But not to Vignaux please Bob, that book was published in the 1880's. Let's stick to the last 25 years I would say. Hoppe has a few funny diagrams in his book also.
And Chris, I never minded you playing less than 1.200 :smile:

If I may be so bold as to ask, how many of the top professional athletes in any discipline have a coach or master who plays better then they. I mean of course to say of the elite players, I think they continue and always have learned from people who do not play at their level.

Ira made a great point in his original response stating that many masters of the game have trouble articulating their practices in a way that's concrete and discernible by the general audiences of students in and out of the game.

I will say this though Mert, from personal experience, you will be hard pressed to find a better instructor for the true and deepest levels of cue sports in general than Ira and his aforementioned collaborator Robert Raiford. I, without knowledge of what I did correctly in this life or the past, have access to both as instructors and count my recent success in the pool world as result of their tutelage.

These successes being:

2010 ACUI Collegiate National Championships
2010 US Amateur Championships
2011 ACUI Collegiate National Championships

I know for certain that these are just small building blocks leading to much larger and higher profile successes. I'd enjoy reflecting back on this thread in 5 or so years to share what my then current successes will be.

Hopefully there are those out there who read this thread and seek out the information that Ira so willingly gives.

All the best,

Raymond Linares

 

[iralee]

Ira,
Thank you for that very professional and articulate interpertation of the subject matter. I have watched you play many times on videos and I have always enjoyed seeing you play. You are truly a great player, a gentleman and a scholar of the game of Billiards, hats off to you!. I am looking forward to seeing you play in person one of these days and I will always remain your fan.
Respectfully,Dan

Thank you kindly. I appreciate your overly generous reply - I am not a great player, but I do love this game - as we all do on this forum.

-Ira