What's The Ruling?

[BillYards]

I have a goofy situation here that happened to me. It is almost like "the opposite" situation to the shot in this thread.

http://pl.cuetable.com/showthread.php?t=161

A lot of people considered this a scratch in a tournament.
They think "the CB is supposed to scratch in a normal situation".
However, it didn't. And we have to worry about "double hitting" for the incoming player and so forth... (good thing this happens rarely)



Now, back to the topic...

In Jude's example, most of people think "the CB is not supposed to scratch" or "the player didn't mean it". However, his cue touched the CB and the CB did drop (whether it's caused by the cue or not)

I think this is one of the arguments in this thread:

When does the incoming player's inning actually start after given Ball-In-Hand?



IMO it's "after he has set the CB with HIS HAND", however, this is just my own opinion.

In this example the rule is: If the balls can be pushed straight down into the pocket, then they are to be pushed straight down. Otherwise they are resting on the bed of the table (still on the surface) and still in play.

The situation shown in the photo is clearly a foul.

 

[jay helfert]

I think, Jay, that the BCA was trying to remove the elements of luck from the game, and the two things that you mentioned are just the things that introduce luck into eight ball. I don't have a problem with awarding a win for breaking in the eight, but I do have a problem with not having an open table after the break. Group selection based on what fell on the break turns eight ball into a game that is often determined by luck. You can make two solids on the break but the rest are tied up together, while the stripes are sitting free and clear. What's fair about that? Why should the vagaries of chance determine who has the strategic advantage to start the game?

I've played a lot of bar rules and BCA rule eight ball in my life and IMHO, there is no comparison--the BCA rules are far better.

You'll never entirely take the luck out of a game of pool, and that also makes it interesting. I feel that if a player makes stripes, then let him (or her) maneuver around to make their balls or play safe. That's all part of the game. And it actually adds an element of skill to Eight Ball that I like.

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, unfortunately for me the BCA Ref called it a foul and gave BIH to my opponent. The only good part for me after that happened is that it put me on tilt and I whent to the casino and bet my last $800 at the Roulette table and won 28K. That helped to make the ref's decision a little more barable to me but i'm still pissed off about it 14 years later.

In the 1st scenario I would not call it a foul. It's one of those touchy scenarios that common senses tells me that the CB was not in play at the time, it did not effect the current game condition or the possible outcome of the game and it is definately not covered in the rules.

Mj

Thanks for your response Mike. I will always respect your opinion.

 

[jay helfert]

According to the BCA rules, your disagreement would result in a player being screwed.

From the BCA rules: "...it remains in hand (not in play) until the player strikes the cue ball with his cue tip. The cue ball may be adjusted by the player’s hand, cue, etc., so long as it remains in hand."

I don't think it gets any plainer than that - by BCA rules, BIH doesn't end until the tip strikes the ball. There isn't anything expressly prohibiting the CB ending up in a pocket, on the floor, or back in your hand again during BIH. Infinite adjustments can be made until the tip actually strikes the CB. You can't disturb any other balls during BIH, but other than that, it seems that anything goes, including knocking the CB into the pocket.

I understand you're arguing that the rules are wrong, but the rules are the rules. In this case, there's no foul, regardless of opinion - this seems to be black-letter and not open to interpretation.

APA rules are a little more vague, however.

-djb

It doesn't specifically say anything about the cue ball being knocked into the pocket, or into another ball. And that should be addressed. Using this interpretation, a player could place the cue ball on the table and bump it into another ball changing it's position, and not be a foul. For many years, in all pro tournaments this very scenario was ruled a foul, and rightly so.

They may be BCA rules, but they are not good ones. And they need to be changed to accurately reflect how the game is played. They changed them once. Let them change them again.

 

[jay helfert]

I have a goofy situation here that happened to me. It is almost like "the opposite" situation to the shot in this thread.

http://pl.cuetable.com/showthread.php?t=161

A lot of people considered this a scratch in a tournament.
They think "the CB is supposed to scratch in a normal situation".
However, it didn't. And we have to worry about "double hitting" for the incoming player and so forth... (good thing this happens rarely)



Now, back to the topic...

In Jude's example, most of people think "the CB is not supposed to scratch" or "the player didn't mean it". However, his cue touched the CB and the CB did drop (whether it's caused by the cue or not)

I think this is one of the arguments in this thread:

When does the incoming player's inning actually start after given Ball-In-Hand?



IMO it's "after he has set the CB with HIS HAND", however, this is just my own opinion.

If the balls are below the playing surface, they are out of play. If you can remove one ball and the other one falls into the pocket, it is considered pocketed.

 

[jay helfert]

With BIH,

It is a foul to touch any object ball with the cue ball.
But, you can accidently move OBs with your fingers, hand or big belly without penalty (in a un-ref'd match) Cue ball fouls only.

When does the cue ball become 'in play' with BIH... it must be in play if it is a foul to touch an OB while placing the CB with BIH?

But, it isn't in play while you are adjusting it with your cue?
If you are able to adjust the cue ball with any and all parts of the cue stick, while you are down on the shot, why isn't that considered 'in play'?

I have a suggestion...

When a player has BIH, they can only make adjustments with their hand/finger. Any cue stick touching of the cue ball is considered a shot and must meet a legal shot requirement.

Using the hand/finger to make adjustments eliminates all of these arguments. And, isn't that making the game less complicated?

Original question:
Being stupid enough to be placing a cue ball in a corner pocket for what ever reason and then using the cue stick to adjust the position is reason enough for a foul.

Would any one replying to this post use their cue stick to adjust the cueball position, when it is this close to the edge of the corner pocket?

Thank you Tom. Now I see why you are such a highly regarded TD. Some things are a judgement call and take an experienced person to make a good and fair call. EVERYTHING is not covered in the rule book!

I have seen all the above situations happen and many others not discussed here, that are not covered by any rule.

 

[DoomCue]

It doesn't specifically say anything about the cue ball being knocked into the pocket, or into another ball. And that should be addressed. Using this interpretation, a player could place the cue ball on the table and bump it into another ball changing it's position, and not be a foul. For many years, in all pro tournaments this very scenario was ruled a foul, and rightly so.

They may be BCA rules, but they are not good ones. And they need to be changed to accurately reflect how the game is played. They changed them once. Let them change them again.

Your scenario about bumping into another ball IS specifically covered:
3.22 FOUL BY PLACEMENT
Touching any object ball with the cue ball while it is in hand is a foul.

Again, I think you're interpreting a rule which needs no interpretation. In law, this is known as black-letter. The rules clearly state when BIH ends. There is no need to cover every single scenario which may occur in between the time BIH starts and BIH ends, unless a specific scenario is a foul. Those scenarios are spelled out, and dropping the CB into a pocket isn't one of them.

Here's another scenario to illustrate my point:

Player A scratches in the corner pocket. Player A pulls the CB out of the pocket and places it on the surface of the table, but in the jaws of the corner pocket. Player B reaches to grab the CB to adjust it for BIH, but knocks it into the pocket. Would you rule that a foul, too? If not, what's the difference between my scenario and Jude's?

-djb

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Your scenario about bumping into another ball IS specifically covered:
3.22 FOUL BY PLACEMENT
Touching any object ball with the cue ball while it is in hand is a foul.

I've always thought that this rule would be better covered under "all ball fouls"... but the BCA thinks differently, imagine that?

It's ok to move balls accidentally with everything but the cue ball (when you have it BIH).

Why can't the situation be covered like normal 'cue ball fouls only' rules...? just have the non-shooting player replace the ball to where he thinks it should be.

Again, I think you're interpreting a rule which needs no interpretation. In law, this is known as black-letter. The rules clearly state when BIH ends. There is no need to cover every single scenario which may occur in between the time BIH starts and BIH ends, unless a specific scenario is a foul. Those scenarios are spelled out, and dropping the CB into a pocket isn't one of them.

Here's another scenario to illustrate my point:

Player A scratches in the corner pocket. Player A pulls the CB out of the pocket and places it on the surface of the table, but in the jaws of the corner pocket. Player B reaches to grab the CB to adjust it for BIH, but knocks it into the pocket. Would you rule that a foul, too? If not, what's the difference between my scenario and Jude's?

-djb

By the way, the rules are always in a 'living' state. When the attention of errors or the need to reword or add new rules the rules owners take action, it is usually within a year.

 

[DoomCue]

By the way, the rules are always in a 'living' state. When the attention of errors or the need to reword or add new rules the rules owners take action, it is usually within a year.

For the most part, I agree with you. If a rule needs fixing, then by all means, it should be fixed. However, I disagree that the rule about the CB touching an OB during BIH needs to be fixed, especially if the OB is not "on." No matter if it's a BIH situation, contacting a ball not "on" is a foul. Consider a 9-ball game where the lowest numbered ball on the table is the 5, but the CB touches the 6 first. If it's not a BIH situation, that's clearly a foul. I definitely think that should also be a foul during a BIH situation. I think of the rule about a BIH CB touching ANY OB being a foul as just an extension of that example. I think it's also ok to consider that, since this covers an act with the CB, it should be covered as a special circumstance under CB fouls only - after all, it obviously involves the CB.

As the BCA rules are written now, the situation in Jude's scenario is not a foul, and should never be called a foul when playing under BCA rules. If a ref calls a foul in Jude's scenario, he's expanding beyond his duties as a referee, which is to enforce the rules as they are stated, not to arbitrarily pick and choose which ones he agrees with and make decisions which clearly are opposed to the stated rules. If the TD determines beforehand, and makes it known to the players and the referees, that a rule and its consequences are to be modified, then the rulings can and should be different. If the rules to be followed are declared and no modifications are proposed, then those are the rules which should be enforced, regardless of personal opinion about the validity of a rule.

-djb

 

[mjantti]

I still disagree on ruling a foul here. There is no difference ruleswise if the cueball enters the pocket either by hand or by the cue (not the tip with forward motion) or if a breeze through the venue blows the cueball into the pocket. There seem to be many players trying to find different interpretations from the rules, while there isn't any. I haven't seen any real rules being quoted here to suggest that there might be an interpretation that dropping the cueball into the pocket would be foul.

I agree with DoomCue: "Again, I think you're interpreting a rule which needs no interpretation. In law, this is known as black-letter. The rules clearly state when BIH ends. There is no need to cover every single scenario which may occur in between the time BIH starts and BIH ends, unless a specific scenario is a foul. Those scenarios are spelled out, and dropping the CB into a pocket isn't one of them."

Cuetable: there is a ruling for that situation, read the rules, BCA 3.33

I know the rules don't cover all situation, but to me it covers this case.

Jay: I think you have issues with the BCA, thus your attitude, but I respect your opinions.

Tom: "cueball fouls only" rules are only "normal" in America.

MJ: I think the BCA ref made a mistake there. I'm glad it turned out nice eventually

 

[X Breaker]

I have also heard that cue ball is considered in play when the player assums his shooting stance. Until then, he can move the ball around with his cue, drop it in tje pocket and what not.

So, if you move the cue ball around with your cue while standing up or walking around the table, it is fine--but if you get down on your usual stance, and start to stroke the ball then it would be a foul if the cue ball is striked by the cue and falls into the pocket.

Some players would still adjust the cue ball with their cues after getting down on the shot, but doing so before they start their warm up stroke, and I was told that is fine by BCA as well.

If I shoot a ball into the pocket, then accidentally drop another ball in with the butt of my cue, and I am playing cue ball foul, is it a foul?

 

[DoomCue]

I have also heard that cue ball is considered in play when the player assums his shooting stance. Until then, he can move the ball around with his cue, drop it in tje pocket and what not.

So, if you move the cue ball around with your cue while standing up or walking around the table, it is fine--but if you get down on your usual stance, and start to stroke the ball then it would be a foul if the cue ball is striked by the cue and falls into the pocket.

According to the BCA rules, what you have heard is incorrect. BIH doesn't end until the cue tip strikes the CB in a forward motion.

Some players would still adjust the cue ball with their cues after getting down on the shot, but doing so before they start their warm up stroke, and I was told that is fine by BCA as well.

It's fine because they haven't struck the CB yet.

If I shoot a ball into the pocket, then accidentally drop another ball in with the butt of my cue, and I am playing cue ball foul, is it a foul?

In a refereed match, the ref makes the call. In a non-refereed match, it is NOT a foul.

-djb

 

[jay helfert]

Your scenario about bumping into another ball IS specifically covered:
3.22 FOUL BY PLACEMENT
Touching any object ball with the cue ball while it is in hand is a foul.

Again, I think you're interpreting a rule which needs no interpretation. In law, this is known as black-letter. The rules clearly state when BIH ends. There is no need to cover every single scenario which may occur in between the time BIH starts and BIH ends, unless a specific scenario is a foul. Those scenarios are spelled out, and dropping the CB into a pocket isn't one of them.

Here's another scenario to illustrate my point:

Player A scratches in the corner pocket. Player A pulls the CB out of the pocket and places it on the surface of the table, but in the jaws of the corner pocket. Player B reaches to grab the CB to adjust it for BIH, but knocks it into the pocket. Would you rule that a foul, too? If not, what's the difference between my scenario and Jude's?

-djb

BIG DIFFERENCE! In Jude's scenario player B has already taken BIH and placed the cue ball on the table. He then becomes responsible for the position of the cue ball.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

For the most part, I agree with you. If a rule needs fixing, then by all means, it should be fixed. However, I disagree that the rule about the CB touching an OB during BIH needs to be fixed, especially if the OB is not "on."

I do a lot of things in life because I have to, enforcing rules is one of them. Rules are made to be followed so that all the players are afforded an equal opportunity to compete.

This doesn't mean I have to agree with the rule and/or its intention, I just take it to the next level and see what I can do to get the rule changed.

No matter if it's a BIH situation, contacting a ball not "on" is a foul. Consider a 9-ball game where the lowest numbered ball on the table is the 5, but the CB touches the 6 first. If it's not a BIH situation, that's clearly a foul. I definitely think that should also be a foul during a BIH situation. I think of the rule about a BIH CB touching ANY OB being a foul as just an extension of that example. I think it's also ok to consider that, since this covers an act with the CB, it should be covered as a special circumstance under CB fouls only - after all, it obviously involves the CB.

I agree for the most part, but at the same time... it has to be considered "IN PLAY" with BIH and that is a contridiction for the ruling that it is not a foul if you accidently pocket the cue ball while trying to adjust its position on the the table.

What if you hit another ball picking the cue ball out of the pocket? It only matters if the cue ball hit it or your hand/fingers or arm.

As the BCA rules are written now, the situation in Jude's scenario is not a foul, and should never be called a foul when playing under BCA rules.

Agreed

If a ref calls a foul in Jude's scenario, he's expanding beyond his duties as a referee, which is to enforce the rules as they are stated, not to arbitrarily pick and choose which ones he agrees with and make decisions which clearly are opposed to the stated rules.

Agreed, but herein lies the problem... it is not as black and white as everyone seems to think. Judgement decisions are left up to the REFs and Tournament Directors. We will start seeing more references to Judgement calls in the future. See the 'push shot' rule... it is just a 'guideline' for refs not a RULE but it is stated as a rule. IMO this rule just confuses everyone.

If the TD determines beforehand, and makes it known to the players and the referees, that a rule and its consequences are to be modified, then the rulings can and should be different. If the rules to be followed are declared and no modifications are proposed, then those are the rules which should be enforced, regardless of personal opinion about the validity of a rule.

-djb

TD have the right to modify the rules because of the special circumstances of the venue or type of tournament format.
For example;Time limit for high number of players and low number of tables.

Which rules apply at the US Open? Derby City Classic? Any Regional tours? how about the BCA Open? How many of those venues are ALL BALL FOULS?

 

[FLICKit]

In general the rules are simply to define a consistent flow of play.
Fouls are implemented for the purpose of punishing bad play (i.e. scratch or ball off the table). Everything else should allow the skill of the players to determine the outcome based on their play and the scenarios that present themselves during a game of pool.

Maintaining the integrity of the table: In general all should take care never to accidentally move balls. Accidentally moving balls MAY unnecessarily affect the outcome of the game. Saying all ball fouls, may be too extreme a punishment for the crime incurred. Thus penalties should be accrued for accidental ball movement, and allowing the opponent the option for returning the balls, seems to be the fairest solution. The only exception is that there should be remedies for a blantantly wrong and self-advantaged positioning of the balls.

Moving the cue ball with the stick: Who cares? If you prefer not to do it that way, then don't. Just use your hand. If someone else would rather do it then go ahead, but there has to be a boundary point somewhere, and at the point where the tip/top of the stick causes a forward motion of the cue ball, sounds reasonable. Understanding of course, that if you choose to use your stick to move the ball, then you incur the risk and the responsibility of not fouling. If you don't want that risk, then use your hand and don't put yourself in that jeopardy.
This allows the best of both worlds. Consistently having to move with hand only can be tedious and waste time. Moving with the stick can save time, but must take the necessary precautions.

Cue ball fouls with BIH: What purpose does it serve to call a foul when a person with BIH allows the cue ball to fall into a pocket or on the floor? I say no harm done, let them resume play as normal.
I also believe that it should be added to the rules that upon foul resulting in BIH. That upon initial position after the BIH foul occured, the non-offending player can request the offender to hand him the ball. This could prevent some potentially petty situations, where the offending/fouling player could be rewarded.

8 on the break/early 8: There are various options for how this should be handled (win, loss, or spot). The spot option has significantly decreased due to coin-op tables. Thus a consistent solution has to be utilized. With this it makes sense to do legal 8 on break = win, while any other early 8 equals loss.

Open after the break: many people have an automatic response (without much true in-depth thought) to this concept. They will very quickly say, "why should the breaker be punished for making a ball"? Or oppose it because that's not the way that they (personally) have always done it. You have to truly play both styles and be able to embrace the nuances of them both to truly understand. Non-open after the break, actually requires more skill and has the net effect of simplifying or eliminating a level of arguments that can ensue. Break and runs are much easier to achieve when its open after the break. Much more likely for the balls to luckily set themselves up.With full understanding, I think both can be considered legitimate viable options, just a choice by whoever is running that tournment/league or by players themselves.

 

[DoomCue]

BIG DIFFERENCE! In Jude's scenario player B has already taken BIH and placed the cue ball on the table. He then becomes responsible for the position of the cue ball.

You seriously think there's a big difference? What rules are you applying here? Please cite them, if you can.

-djb

 

[jay helfert]

You seriously think there's a big difference? What rules are you applying here? Please cite them, if you can.

-djb

You asked if there's a difference in these two scenarios and I answered yes, David. Perhaps you should read them both again. I see a significant difference in placing the cue ball on the table with your own hand, and picking up a cue ball that has been left there by the opponent. When you place the cue ball on the table, you now take responsibility for whatever happens. If you chose to differ with me on this, that is your option.

My opinion is that at the moment you take the cue ball in hand, you assume responsibility for what happens next. If you drop it on the table and it moves object balls, you have fouled.

 

[FLICKit]

But isn't the issue being discussed between you two, that if you put the cue ball on the table and it falls into a pocket, before you take a shot, then should it be a foul or not?

 

[DoomCue]

You asked if there's a difference in these two scenarios and I answered yes, David. Perhaps you should read them both again.

Hmm. I see you can be literal when you want to, except when we're talking about rules. Nice side-step of the real question I asked.

I see a significant difference in placing the cue ball on the table with your own hand, and picking up a cue ball that has been left there by the opponent. When you place the cue ball on the table, you now take responsibility for whatever happens. If you chose to differ with me on this, that is your option.

You see a significant difference, but I don't. Either way, you're moving the ball with your hand. Whether you accidentally or purposefully move it doesn't matter. Can you cite a BCA rule concerning BIH and a player's intent?

My opinion is that at the moment you take the cue ball in hand, you assume responsibility for what happens next. If you drop it on the table and it moves object balls, you have fouled.

I agree, if you drop the CB and it moves any OB, you have fouled. This is explicitly named as a foul in the BCA rules. I'm not sure why you're mentioning it here, though.

Since you've declined to post what rules you're applying, I'm going to assume, since you continue to say so, that you're going by your own opinion, which frankly, surprises the hell out of me. I know you've been around pool for a long time, and I know you are deeply entrenched and intertwined with the world of pool. I have always held you in the highest regard, and will continue to do so. Like I said though, I'm really surprised that you would approve of an interpretation of rules rather than the actual rules.

-djb

 

[DoomCue]

But isn't the issue being discussed between you two, that if you put the cue ball on the table and it falls into a pocket, before you take a shot, then should it be a foul or not?

Yes, or so I thought.

-djb