Whats The Secret To Making Shots You Should Make?

I line this up like it's "straight in" and put a touch of RIGHT.

ENGLISH! said:
Ms. Crimi,

I agree. Low outside is my preference as well, but I will hit them with all four(4) types of spin depending on position needs. The point, imho, is that the spin in effect 'opens up' what is a somewhat smaller pocket opening. The only time I would not use some type of spin is if it is a shorter shot with the OB closer to the pocket & the CB closer to the OB given that there is no specific position needs.

I am somewhat speaking in the 'past tense', as I am now shooting many of these type of shots with CJ's TOI technique with the tip contact on either side of the horizontal axis. I just can't seem to stand ever hitting on the exact horizontal axis, but I guess that is just me & my foilble.

Best Regards & Wishes,
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Yes, I line this up like it's "straight in" and put a touch of Low/RIGHT (making sure there's no pivot or BH english). Then it is, in effect, straight in. I make this shot close to 100% of the time. The power of the TOI is it makes every shot seem like it's straight in over time. This is the key to my consistency over long hours of play. There's other ways to do it, however when using "spin" there's a additional calculation needed that decreases margin of error, especially on humid, or worn equipment.
 
Dr. Cue,

I don't know how you play, but I sense you are overestimating typical make percentages for these shots, especially when considering the accompanying position play following the shot.

For someone like CJ or Fran, pro-level players, the make percentage might be close to 100%, as CJ said. But notice he didn't say 100%, he said close to 100%.

In the diagram, from the new cue ball position, I would estimate the 9 to be virtually 100% and the 2 and 6 to be very close to that but missable, so maybe 98 - 99 percent. The 8 and 5 would be maybe 90 - 95% for a decent A/B level player, the 7 could be as low as 80%. A pro would be higher in all cases simply because of repetition and learning how NOT to shoot these shots. As you go down in rank the percentages drop accordingly and quicker than you might think.

IMO, most of us tend to inflate our numbers, we remember our successes more than the failures. That's a good thing from a mental game standpoint, not so good when relating information to people or putting too high of expectations on ourselves.

I agree none of these shots are necessarily hard shots, but they are all missable - bad alignment, bad stroke, not compensating for CIT, not compensating for english, dirty balls, humid conditions, etc. And that's just to make the ball, if playing on tight equipment and having to move the cue ball somewhere the percentage drops even more. I know on tables I play on the 5 and especially 7 ball better be hit pretty clean or they won't go in.

So do I think I should make these shots all the time? Yes. But will I? No. If it happens too many times in a night I won't be happy (understatement), but an occasional miss will happen, too many variables for it not to.

Scott
 
CJ Wiley said:
Yes, I line this up like it's "straight in" and put a touch of Low/RIGHT (making sure there's no pivot or BH english). Then it is, in effect, straight in. I make this shot close to 100% of the time. The power of the TOI is it makes every shot seem like it's straight in over time. This is the key to my consistency over long hours of play. There's other ways to do it, however when using "spin" there's a additional calculation needed that decreases margin of error, especially on humid, or worn equipment.
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Hi CJ,

I spent another 3 hours with TOI yesterday but my individual money league playoffs start tommorrow.

My spin calculations have become subconscious second nature long ago, but you are correct, TOI has less variables. I am still having trouble with the speed thing & position but I think I had a bit of a revelation yesterday. Both with TOI & the Red Circle Ball. Unfortunately it was near the end when my back started hurting. I was on my feet all day Sunday for the St. Patrick's Day Festivities.

In my next session with TOI, I am going to work more on establishig consistent acceleration vs consistent 'speed'. Watching your run videos were a bit of an eye opener & certainly helpful but I am not comfortable 'choking' up on the cue as much as I am moving back on it. I'll try to find my way 1st but if I can not, I may have to go ALL your way, grip, stroke, the whole nine yards.

I almost hope I loose in the 1st. or 2nd. round of playoffs so I can devote that uninterupted 3-4 weeks with TOI.

Best Regards, Wishes, & Thanks,
 
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ENGLISH! said:
Hi CJ,

I spent another 3 hours with TOI yesterday but my individual money league playoffs start tommorrow.

My spin calculations have become subconscious second nature long ago, but you are correct, TOI has less variables. I am still having trouble with the speed thing & position but I think I had a bit of a revelation yesterday. Both with TOI & the Red Circle Ball. Unfortunately it was near the end when my back started hurting. I was on my feet all day Sunday for the St. Patrick's Day Festivities.

In my next session with TOI, I am going to work more on establishig consistent acceleration vs consistent 'speed'. Watching your run videos were a bit of an eye opener & certainly helpful but I am not comfortable 'choking' up on the cue as much as I am moving back on it. I'll try to find my way 1st but if I can not, I may have to go ALL your way, grip, stroke, the whole nine yards.

I almost hope I loose in the 1st. or 2nd. round of playoffs so I can devote that uninterupted 3-4 weeks with TOI.

Best Regards, Wishes, & Thanks,
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The cue is just more useful when it's several different lengths, and for this to happen you would want to move your back hand. When you move your hand back it lengthens your bridge, when you move you hand forward it shortens your bridge. Playing every shot with the same length bridge is something I would not recommend. It's so much easier to choke up to shoot finesse shots because you can still accelerate like it's a normal shot.
 
CJ Wiley said:
The cue is just more useful when it's several different lengths, and for this to happen you would want to move your back hand. When you move your hand back it lengthens your bridge, when you move you hand forward it shortens your bridge. Playing every shot with the same length bridge is something I would not recommend. It's so much easier to choke up to shoot finesse shots because you can still accelerate like it's a normal shot.
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CJ,

I had to read that three(3) times before I got what I think you mean about moving the hand back & forward & the different bridge lengths.

It's because you are keeping the relationship of your back hand & arm plus the front hand & arm the same relative to your body. It is the cue that is moving forward or backward within that same relationship. Einstein's theory of relativity in it's most basic form. I got it. Thanks.

I'll give it a try,
 
The shots I miss that I should make are missed due to either a lack of focus (I take it for granted and run right through it carelessly) or I try to do too much with it, for no real good reason and dog the shot because I deflected too much or over amped it. I have to constantly remind myself that "less is more" more often than not!
 
I must say that I am confused how spin aids in pocketing these shots. There is virtually no side spin imparted onto the object ball from the collision. If there is doubt in this sassumption will someone explain to me how two like objects without a friction agent (ie. chalk) can induce spin on each other?

Going back to my thought, how does spin aid in making these shots? I am going to assume the ball does not skid, because if the cloth and balls are clean, skidding is VERY rare in my experience. Using side spin causes a deflection/swerve curve that creates a variable that I feel reduces aiming consistency.

Before anyone asks, I do use side spin and know how to compensate - but if I have a shot that my percentage is lower than I expect, I reduce variables such as side spin. In my earlier post I mentioned top and bottom spin are better to be used because very much so in 9-ball its more important to make the object ball and "stay out of trouble" than anything else.

To be very clear, I am not arguing anyone's post - I am asking because I feel using english does not improve the pocketing percentage of making a ball, just adjusts the point of aim on the ball and would like to understand if this is erroneous.

Steve
 
boyersj said:
I must say that I am confused how spin aids in pocketing these shots. There is virtually no side spin imparted onto the object ball from the collision. If there is doubt in this sassumption will someone explain to me how two like objects without a friction agent (ie. chalk) can induce spin on each other?

Going back to my thought, how does spin aid in making these shots? I am going to assume the ball does not skid, because if the cloth and balls are clean, skidding is VERY rare in my experience. Using side spin causes a deflection/swerve curve that creates a variable that I feel reduces aiming consistency.

Before anyone asks, I do use side spin and know how to compensate - but if I have a shot that my percentage is lower than I expect, I reduce variables such as side spin. In my earlier post I mentioned top and bottom spin are better to be used because very much so in 9-ball its more important to make the object ball and "stay out of trouble" than anything else.

To be very clear, I am not arguing anyone's post - I am asking because I feel using english does not improve the pocketing percentage of making a ball, just adjusts the point of aim on the ball and would like to understand if this is erroneous.

Steve
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Steve,

I think the best way for you to get answers to your questions would be to go to Dr. Dave's Website Glossary & research 'spin'.

Regards,
 
Rick,

If you are referring to the video in the following link, notice how the ballas it leaves the frame is no longer side spinning? That is more of a collision based spin than a spin induced spin.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-66.htm

There is going to be a very small amount of spin transfer but I just can't see it being enough to aid in ball pocketing because what little spin is transfer degrades quickly.

Steve
 
boyersj said:
Rick,

If you are referring to the video in the following link, notice how the ballas it leaves the frame is no longer side spinning? That is more of a collision based spin than a spin induced spin.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-66.htm

There is going to be a very small amount of spin transfer but I just can't see it being enough to aid in ball pocketing because what little spin is transfer degrades quickly.

Steve
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Steve,

I was not referring to any specific one. There are others. I suggest you watch them all.

Regards,
 
boyersj said:
I must say that I am confused how spin aids in pocketing these shots. There is virtually no side spin imparted onto the object ball from the collision. If there is doubt in this sassumption will someone explain to me how two like objects without a friction agent (ie. chalk) can induce spin on each other?

Going back to my thought, how does spin aid in making these shots? I am going to assume the ball does not skid, because if the cloth and balls are clean, skidding is VERY rare in my experience. Using side spin causes a deflection/swerve curve that creates a variable that I feel reduces aiming consistency.

Before anyone asks, I do use side spin and know how to compensate - but if I have a shot that my percentage is lower than I expect, I reduce variables such as side spin. In my earlier post I mentioned top and bottom spin are better to be used because very much so in 9-ball its more important to make the object ball and "stay out of trouble" than anything else.

To be very clear, I am not arguing anyone's post - I am asking because I feel using english does not improve the pocketing percentage of making a ball, just adjusts the point of aim on the ball and would like to understand if this is erroneous.

Steve
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For me it's about pocket speed. If I have to risk shooting a shot harder than a comfortable pocket speed, I'd rather spin it in and hit it softer to obtain position on the next shot rather than apply more force. Topspin or backspin isn't always enough to slow down the force of the hit. You usually have to combine it with some sort of side spin to keep the cb moving after the hit.
 
I totally agree that spin aids in position play. Perhaps the answer to the original question is to play at pocket speed as much as possible, using spin and the rails to kill the cueball when necessary. I was under the impression that the OP's question was merely about pocketing so I tried to simplify the positional aspect until his confidence in the shot making increased. Thanks Fran!

Steve
 
cutting to the right, I use right, when cutting to the left I use left

boyersj said:
I see these types of shots missed often (the 5 and 7 from the new cueball location). Typically they are undercut, ie. the ball hits the rail prior to the pocket. Both shots appear to be 1/2 ball hits. Very little if any sidespin should be used as top or bottom spin can really provide position play. At least that is my personal philosophy!
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Yes, they are undercut because when using "outside english" the cue ball immediately deflects towards the center of the object ball encouraging an under cut shot. That's one of the reasons I always cue inside.....cutting to the right, I use right, when cutting to the left I use left. This encourages an over cut on the object ball, which for me personally is far superior. imho
 
I do not focus enough on the easier shots and I over focus on the harder shots. For some reason it is just to difficult to stay at one level throughout a game. Its seems like a simple thing to do lol
 
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You must find a way to treat all of them the same.

Husler said:
I do not focus enough on the easier shots and I over focus on the harder shots. For some reason it is just to difficult to stay at one level throughout a game. Its seems like a simple thing to do lol
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You must find a way to treat all of them the same...or you'll always struggle with making the difficult ones, and missing the "easy" ones. I know from experience, and even helped Tiger Woods with this issue a few years ago.
 
.defining them in your mind is no a good idea, that's the main point.....Play Well.

clarkie39 said:
CJ you helped Tiger in his Pool game? I didnt' know he played pool.
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No, Tiger was having trouble with "making the hard shots (in golf) and missing the easy ones".....Hank Haney suggested one of my techniques and wrote about it in his book about Tiger....he credits me in the book, and told me the full story one day....it's about this same topic "there's no hard shots or easy shots, you must treat them all like shots"......defining them in your mind is no a good idea, that's the main point.....Play Well.
 
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