What's wrong with APA rules?

[nine_ball6970]

Under actual BCA rules. I was surprised by this when reading the rule book, also.

Interesting. So say you foul on the 8 and make it or make it in a pocket you did not call. It just spots up and ball in hand for opponent?

 

[leto1776]

Interesting. So say you foul on the 8 and make it or make it in a pocket you did not call. It just spots up and ball in hand for opponent?

Fouls committed on 8-ball shot or making it in a pocket you did not call result in the loss of the rack.

 

[hang-the-9]

Maybe I am just ignorant, but under what rules is scratching on the 8 not a loss?

If the 8 ball stays on the table, it's not a loss in world rules, nor in the BCA/USA leagues. I don't know APA rules for that, is ANY foul on the 8 a loss? Like if you missed a kick at it? It would be like playing with a 3 foul rule in 9 ball, the other guy can hook you to try a win. And I don't think there is a 3 foul rule in 9 ball in APA, so if you can win by making the other guy miss a legal hit on the 8, that should be taken out as it's pretty much contradicts their 9 ball rule.

 

[Cornerman]

APA decided on beginners for their market, rather shrewdly. They have set up a system that works well within that market, and refined their rules accordingly. Many of those rules, defined here, go against the way "better" players play, and that fact rankles those players.

Hubbert and Bell are laughing. They figured it out, and it pissed many of you off.

.

There are too many posts to respond to, but I'll single out this one just as a highlight (just for clarification).

The rules weren't designed for beginners or any such thing. The rules were the basic 8-ball rules that all professionals were playing with at the time the APA was started. World 8-ball Championships by professionals were won many times over with these rules.

These included but weren't limited to:

Slop counts
8-ball on the break wins
Take what you make

These aren't rules that the APA invented for amateurs (as the going myth might be). Up until at least the mid-80's, professional tournaments for 8-ball existed that used these rules or quite similar.

So Larry Hubbart and Terry Bell simply wrote down rules they were familiar with. The BCA continued to change the rules in their rulebook but the APA really didn't and the professional players did their own thing as is common with all pool. We still see this today with the ever growing 10-ball which is now played by unrecognizable rules due to rules committees for WPA.

Freddie <~~~ carry on everyone, but the APA rules are fine and are not "meant for amateurs" (but the league is)

 

[Shaky1]

We played last night in the division playoffs using the new scoring system.
Play started at 7 pm. Play finished at after 12:30 am. :frown:

 

[Banks]

We played last night in the division playoffs using the new scoring system.
Play started at 7 pm. Play finished at after 12:30 am. :frown:

Even with the 'old' system, it would still take that long for those 5 matches. Ours was done at about 11 or so, but we had our final two matches playing simultaneously. I think the first 3 matches had a combined inning total of something like 85 or 90. I was playing CBI1000 and we were on the 8th rack after about 6 innings. We didn't get to finish, as the 5th match was done before we were. The matches probably took a little longer because all 8 tables were being used for playoff matches and there was quite a bit of waiting for others to finish shooting.

 

[Shaky1]

Even with the 'old' system, it would still take that long for those 5 matches. Ours was done at about 11 or so, but we had our final two matches playing simultaneously. I think the first 3 matches had a combined inning total of something like 85 or 90. I was playing CBI1000 and we were on the 8th rack after about 6 innings. We didn't get to finish, as the 5th match was done before we were. The matches probably took a little longer because all 8 tables were being used for playoff matches and there was quite a bit of waiting for others to finish shooting.

Ours would have been done sooner. We won the first three matches.
Lost the last two and the match. :embarrassed2:

 

[Banks]

Ours would have been done sooner. We won the first three matches.
Lost the last two and the match. :embarrassed2:

Ouch.. yeah, that bites a big, old ...

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

Maybe I am just ignorant, but under what rules is scratching on the 8 not a loss?

That's not exactly what I was saying.

In BCA/WPA/Valley if you make the 8 and scratch it is a loss, but if you miss the 8 and scratch it is not a loss. Making the 8 out of turn or in the wrong pocket is a loss.

Fatz

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

4a. If you're scratching on the 8, don't get all uppity. You're not as good as you talk.. I did it last night, but I know I'm not that good, so I don't go around whining about it(especially since it's my own fault).

Valid point to an extent, however...

#1 sometimes you just get a bad kiss.

and

#2 I still say - even if it is my own fault - that the other guy should earn the win by running all his balls.

I look at it like this. If I scratch on the 8 I do deserve to be punished. But giving the opponent ball in hand is punishment enough - especially since this means his balls are much more likely to be in the clear and now his run out is going to be easier than mine was. Instant loss of game is too severe.

Fatz

 

[lorider]

There are too many posts to respond to, but I'll single out this one just as a highlight (just for clarification).

The rules weren't designed for beginners or any such thing. The rules were the basic 8-ball rules that all professionals were playing with at the time the APA was started. World 8-ball Championships by professionals were won many times over with these rules.

These included but weren't limited to:

Slop counts
8-ball on the break wins
Take what you make

These aren't rules that the APA invented for amateurs (as the going myth might be). Up until at least the mid-80's, professional tournaments for 8-ball existed that used these rules or quite similar.

So Larry Hubbart and Terry Bell simply wrote down rules they were familiar with. The BCA continued to change the rules in their rulebook but the APA really didn't and the professional players did their own thing as is common with all pool. We still see this today with the ever growing 10-ball which is now played by unrecognizable rules due to rules committees for WPA.

Freddie <~~~ carry on everyone, but the APA rules are fine and are not "meant for amateurs" (but the league is)

that is the way i understand it also freddie. they bought out the old busch league , changed the name to apa and bacically left the rules the way they always were.

now dont take what i am about to say as bashing the bcapl, i hapen to like that league also, heck i like all leagues.

it seems like a lot of posters on here like to bash the apa and say bcapl is for serious players. why ? because of the 23 rule and slop in apa, mainly because bcapl is a call your shot league.

in my opinion apa rules do level the playing field somewhat, is it perfect ? no , but there aint no such thing as perfect for everybody in any league.

in my opinion bcapl rules make the game easier to run out even if it is call your pocket.

open break; easier to run out

bih anywhere if scratch on the break; easier to run out.

not a loss if you scratch on the 8 and it does not fall, you get a 2nd chance if your opponent does not run out.

all i hear is how much apa rules penalizes the better player.

got a question for you serious players. just how much easier do you guys want the bcapl to make the game for you ?

then i hear apa 9 ball is not really 9 ball because it is points based. got a news flash for you, so is bcapl 8 ball ....at the local level.

well you say... its not that way at the national level. well a big whoop dee doo, once a year you play real 8 ball.:grin:

well that's my shit stirring post for the day.:wink:

 

[lorider]

Everybody's quick to say what they don't like about the rules. There are some things that others don't like, but I actually do like.

1. No jump cues. Learn how to kick, it's not that hard. On second thought, keep not knowing how to kick. :thumbup:

2. No push in 9b. "I'm so good.. blah blah blah." Yet, you can't break and not hook yourself. Heck, everybody runs 9-packs here, but they can't leave themselves a shot or kick well. Go figure. APA 9b taught me how to play 9b - control the table.

3. Take what you make. It's good and bad, really. At least if you get the bad suit off the break, you have to work for the win.

4. I don't care much for the 3-foul rule. A post above mentions having to 'earn' the win.. but you could easily crap away a game with the 3-foul rule, too.

4a. If you're scratching on the 8, don't get all uppity. You're not as good as you talk.. I did it last night, but I know I'm not that good, so I don't go around whining about it(especially since it's my own fault).

As for the handicaps.. if you don't learn how to win against a lower ranking, especially one that's playing well, you're going to have a bad time. If you don't learn how to win against a higher ranking, you're going to have a bad time. Lastly.. if you pizza when you should french fry, you're going to have a bad time.

This has been a public service announcement.
-SBag

I still like BCA rules, too. I just like to play.

i concur with all of your opinions.

as far as 4.a goes... i did the same thing in a match sun night. i thought it was about a 70% scratch shot but i had one of those duh ! moments. bad part is my opponent still had all his balls on the table, shoulda just tried to bank it. dont know what i was thinking .

 

[justadub]

There are too many posts to respond to, but I'll single out this one just as a highlight (just for clarification).

The rules weren't designed for beginners or any such thing. The rules were the basic 8-ball rules that all professionals were playing with at the time the APA was started. World 8-ball Championships by professionals were won many times over with these rules.

These included but weren't limited to:

Slop counts
8-ball on the break wins
Take what you make

These aren't rules that the APA invented for amateurs (as the going myth might be). Up until at least the mid-80's, professional tournaments for 8-ball existed that used these rules or quite similar.

So Larry Hubbart and Terry Bell simply wrote down rules they were familiar with. The BCA continued to change the rules in their rulebook but the APA really didn't and the professional players did their own thing as is common with all pool. We still see this today with the ever growing 10-ball which is now played by unrecognizable rules due to rules committees for WPA.

Freddie <~~~ carry on everyone, but the APA rules are fine and are not "meant for amateurs" (but the league is)

I stand corrected. Thanks.

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

...The rules weren't designed for beginners or any such thing. The rules were the basic 8-ball rules that all professionals were playing with at the time the APA was started. World 8-ball Championships by professionals were won many times over with these rules.

These included but weren't limited to:

Slop counts
8-ball on the break wins
Take what you make...

The term "slop" as it pertains to APA means you don't even have to call a ball. If you are trying to shoot the 7 in the corner and the 1 goes in the side, you get to keep shooting. (I do realize that you know this.)

Now I have only been following the pros recently. Do you mean to tell me, that there was a time when the pros played by rules with this type of "slop"? Just a question - as I say, I'm not very familiar with the history of pro pool.

I do like the rule in BCA/WPA/Valley where kisses and rails and so forth don't matter - as long as the right ball goes in the right pocket. Some people consider this "slop" as well, albeit a different kind of slop. This rule gives so many advantage in terms of rules enforcement issues, sparing arguments, allowing creativity and so forth.

We need terms to differentiate between the two types of "slop".

Fatz

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

I read recently that Straight Pool (14.1) was invented in 1911. When was 8-ball invented?

thanks

EDIT: (note, Kulay was invented in 2012 )

 

[Pushout]

I read recently that Straight Pool (14.1) was invented in 1911. When was 8-ball invented?

thanks

EDIT: (note, Kulay was invented in 2012 )

Actually, Jerome Keogh revised the rules in 1910, they were first used in competition in 1911. I don't know about 8 ball.

Edit: A quick look says that there was a game played with red and yellow balls and a black ball prior to 1925. I'm on my way out but will try to look more later.

 

[lorider]

The term "slop" as it pertains to APA means you don't even have to call a ball. If you are trying to shoot the 7 in the corner and the 1 goes in the side, you get to keep shooting. (I do realize that you know this.)

Now I have only been following the pros recently. Do you mean to tell me, that there was a time when the pros played by rules with this type of "slop"? Just a question - as I say, I'm not very familiar with the history of pro pool.

I do like the rule in BCA/WPA/Valley where kisses and rails and so forth don't matter - as long as the right ball goes in the right pocket. Some people consider this "slop" as well, albeit a different kind of slop. This rule gives so many advantage in terms of rules enforcement issues, sparing arguments, allowing creativity and so forth.

We need terms to differentiate between the two types of "slop".

Fatz

in apa 8 ball slop counts except you have to call the 8. in 9 ball everywhere slop counts except you have to call the 9. kinda goes together dontcha think?

 

[Cornerman]

The term "slop" as it pertains to APA means you don't even have to call a ball. If you are trying to shoot the 7 in the corner and the 1 goes in the side, you get to keep shooting. (I do realize that you know this.)

Now I have only been following the pros recently. Do you mean to tell me, that there was a time when the pros played by rules with this type of "slop"? Just a question - as I say, I'm not very familiar with the history of pro pool.

Yes, absolutely. 100%. Up until maybe 1985 or so, the few professional 8-ball tournaments would (or I should say "could" ) have slop rules (shoot at the 7, miss but accidentally make the 1, keep shooting).

The Key Media group were selling videos of the invitational from Aspen (Learn from the Best, Mataya - World's Greatest Hustler, etc.). They played an 8-ball tournament and it was slop rules. That was 1986 at least because Nick Varner was listed as the current World 14.1 Champion and he won it in 1986 (as well as 1980, but this was definitely in the mid to late 80's). No coincidence, Larry Hubbart was one of the participants.

The options listed in the BCA rulebooks were certainly exercised. Some tournaments (pro or amateur) would have call shot (call pocket and ball only, never need to call kisses and combos) and some tournaments would have slop rules. The first "official" tournament 8-ball I ever played they were using a BCA rulebook that made us spot up and shoot from the kitchen.

If you watch for example the early Fats vs Mosconi matchups in the 70's, not only did they play slop rules 8-ball, but they also played "no hit on the 8-ball is a loss."

Rules have undergone major changes since 1948 (the first BCA rulebook, I believe). {edit for clarity: as far as I know original 8-ball was the red/yellow black game from early 1900's (we now know this in America as a Casino Set. When the stripes and solids were introduced, the game was still played without call shots as per the red/yellow ball set.)

Freddie

 

[Slow Eddie]

...In 9 ball everywhere slop counts except you have to call the 9....

Call the 9 in APA 9-Ball? That's news to me. Or am I reading that wrong, and you meant everywhere ELSE...

 

[Cornerman]

I was talking to someone about the APA rule concerning the cue ball frozen to the next object ball in 9ball. He said it's a free shot and you can shoot away from the object ball because it's already touching and considered a good hit. Therefore, if the nine ball happens to be open you can turn around and just shoot the nine ball into a pocket and consider it a carom shot...

Absolutely not.