When did pool become like this?

What my original post was about is being a gentlmens game. I wasn't asking for a "free" lesson, I was asking for him to watch my stroke and see if he saw something funny i was doing. The person I was asking was not much better then me, I just wanted a second set of eyes.

To be fair there are a few players here that have helped me tremendously. These are the players that never seem to ever play, but when they do they grab a bar cue and run rack, after rack, after rack. I have gotten great tips from these players, the best being "If you cant see the run all the way to the 8 ball why the hell are you shooting your balls in and giving him a free shots at every pocket????" It was just a small tip at the time, but improved my game immensely. Where has this mentality gone? Why can't we just help out our fellow shooter? Its hard enough to keep this game alive as it is, lets not shoot ourselves in the foot and ruin the game for the new players that are our future.
 
From my experience, good players will give advice to up and coming players if they see a love of the game and a desire to get better. There are great players that have mentored lots of folks games, and brought them up several balls. The "secrets of pool" get passed down so to speak.
Gamblers and hustlers on the other hand wont give you anything. And if they do, it is usually pretty common knowledge or out and out misdirection. There are guys out there hustling for years and if their action starts drying up, they will start "helping out" the younger players around the pool hall. Just enough to give some false confidence and get them gambling. Its a multifaceted game. :wink:
Chuck
 
I hear several people complaining that they can't find someone to help them for free. To them, I ask the question: "Does what those people know about pool have value?"

I paid a considerable amount of money to attend a pool school years ago. What I learned was impressive enough that I became a certified instructor. I have also spent even more to attend other classes, learn new teaching methods, and continue to gain more knowledge. I believe what I offer my students has value, so I am very cautious about giving it away.

When I was 16, a lot of kids in my class got a car given to them by their parents. I knew if I wanted a car, I needed to get a job, earn some money and buy one. A lot of my friends ended up trashing their cars, but I knew what it took to get mine, and took very good care of it. I knew it's value.

That being said, I will often help new players with a couple of tips if I see them struggling. Spending a few minutes to help someone is just the right thing to do in my mind. But if you want me to spend a couple of days teaching you the things I have worked for and paid for over the years, it's not going to be free. It's my source of income, and I won't give it away, any more than you would go to work at a job for two days and not expect a pay check.

If what I have to offer isn't worth it to you, that's fine. I have no problem with that. And I know that there are plenty of people who see the value, and are willing to pay for it. I don't see any value for me in owning a 60' yacht, so I wouldn't buy one. Others see it differently. But I don't expect the guy who buys that yacht to let me borrow it for free just because he has it.

Steve
 
D-Rock said:
My grandfather always told me that pool was a gentlemans game. What ever happened to that? Every year i'm seeing attitudes get worse, prices go higher, everything I once loved about the game being trampled on. When I was a kid I would go to the pool hall and learn all sorts of stuff from the wise players down there. A few weeks ago I was practicing a full table shot and draw back and was misscuing bad. I asked the guy at the table next to me (who was a masters player) to take a look and see if he could notice something in my stroke that was funny. He looked at me and goes "What? you want a free lesson?" No, i didn't want a free lesson, i didn't want to pay for a lesson, i wanted you to take 5 seconds and watch my stroke and help me out. nobody gives advice for free anymore, you have to "pay for a lesson" well F%@$ you all! i'm giving free lessons all the time, to anybody who wants one!!!.....1 full hour or more, if you want, you can buy me a soda, but its not required.
Click to expand...

The best free lesson is watching better players. I'm mean really watching them. What shots do they decide to shoot and why? Especially in 8-ball or 1-pocket, try to decide what you would do and what they did.

Because someone is a good player doesn't necessarily make them a good instructor. Over the years, I've seen a players game hurt by well meant advice. Sometimes the communicating of what you know to someone in a way that they can understand is an art.
 
IMHO - The best lessons cost you money. If you do not want to keep paying up after every rack/set then learn how to beat the other guy or get a spot. Besides, most of the free advice I have ever gotten on playing pool was worth exactly what I paid for it.

I am not sure pool is less of a "gentlemans" game now as opposed to when I started in the early 80's. One thing for sure is that a lot of the patrons of pool halls are considerably more rude than what I remember.
 
Pushout said:
The way I heard it was: "Bums play pool, gentleman play Billiards."
Click to expand...

"...Just as I say,
It takes judgement, brains, and maturity to score
In a balkline game,
I say that any boob kin take
And shove a ball in a pocket.
And I call that sloth.
The first big step on the road
To the depths of deg-ra-Day..."
​

Meredith Willson, "Trouble", from "The Music Man"

BTW If you were wondering 9 Ball is the second through ninth steps on the Road. :-)
 
JCIN said:
Just to play devils advocate.... If you really want to learn you will either work it out on your own, find a mentor who you can learn from for free or do what most people in every other serious sport do: Pay someone who has spent the time and effort learning the game and trade your money for their experience.

To think every guy in the pool room who plays three balls better than you owes you anything, including free tips and advice, just because you are playing the same game is as big a problem as anything else in pool.

A friend who taught me a lot about the game once told me "When you get tired of missing you will learn the right way." He was right.

I used to shoot IPSC pistol competitions pretty seriously. I hit a plateau I couldn't seem to get over. A world champion came to a local club and for $500 you got two full days with him in a small class. I didnt have much money then and what I had I spent on competitions but I wanted to get better. So I nutted up and took the class. In the next few months after the class I jumped up from a low B to a strong A and was a threat to win local matches. Without that investment I don't know if I would have made it before getting discouraged. If you pick the right teacher the return on investment can be outstanding.

What is 10 or 20 years experience at a high level worth? If you think the price is too high no problem but to down someone for wanting to be compensated for sharing something they worked hard to learn is a no go IMO.

I am talking about proven guys here. Not Fast Larry and his Wonder Dog and the myriad clones of him which seem to run rampant in the pool world.

I guarantee if you post a video of you shooting a few a games and link to it here you would have more than a few responses offering help.
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I would never have guessed being from SD you shot IPSC isn't it great?

I was a good B sometimes low A and I took lessons from Sabrina Anderson (I think it's Peterson now). Worth every dollar pool seems to be one of those thing that Americans think you should be automatically an expert.

Every good or great player (admit it or not) took formal lessons or learned from somebody.
 
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pooltchr said:
I hear several people complaining that they can't find someone to help them for free. To them, I ask the question: "Does what those people know about pool have value?"

I paid a considerable amount of money to attend a pool school years ago. What I learned was impressive enough that I became a certified instructor. I have also spent even more to attend other classes, learn new teaching methods, and continue to gain more knowledge. I believe what I offer my students has value, so I am very cautious about giving it away.

When I was 16, a lot of kids in my class got a car given to them by their parents. I knew if I wanted a car, I needed to get a job, earn some money and buy one. A lot of my friends ended up trashing their cars, but I knew what it took to get mine, and took very good care of it. I knew it's value.

That being said, I will often help new players with a couple of tips if I see them struggling. Spending a few minutes to help someone is just the right thing to do in my mind. But if you want me to spend a couple of days teaching you the things I have worked for and paid for over the years, it's not going to be free. It's my source of income, and I won't give it away, any more than you would go to work at a job for two days and not expect a pay check.

If what I have to offer isn't worth it to you, that's fine. I have no problem with that. And I know that there are plenty of people who see the value, and are willing to pay for it. I don't see any value for me in owning a 60' yacht, so I wouldn't buy one. Others see it differently. But I don't expect the guy who buys that yacht to let me borrow it for free just because he has it.

Steve
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Good post. My dad said when I was 16 "I could buy you a car, but I paid cash for my first car". He always said things like that almost 20 years later I figured it out.
 
I know Pool has been coined "Gentlemen's game" but I'm not sure so anything has changed over the past 100 years. At least from what I've read in books about stories of people playing in past era's. There were scheisters' and good guys back in the day. Greanleaf mentored Mosconi, Hoppe mentored Harold Worst, and Jimmy Caras mentored Corey Duel (So I've heard) Nothing new under the sun...

It just boils down to the personalities of the people you come across in the poolhall.

I started playing in 2002. When I first started playing none of the old timers would show me a thing. It was extremely frustrating not being able to make balls and watch others do it with ease. Since I didn't want to pay for lessons I would read books and watch videos to learn as much as I could (and I'm still doing that:wink:).

Once some of the old timers could see I was serious about learning the game they approached me. Some offered lessons for a fee and some gave me advice and answered questions freely. Others wanted to gamble. Some of the players who initially wanted to gamble and or have me pay for lessons later gave me advice and help for free.

Pool first and foremost is about knowledge in my opinion. It doesn't matter how much you practice or play if your not holding your stick straight and stroking properly your not going to continue to improve. I'm still to this day working on my mechanics because of the bad habits I created early on doing things 'my way'. :frown:

I can still vividly remember the feeling of frustration I had because others would not 'help me for free' when they could see I was struggling with my game. But I understand the perspective of those players who have invested alot of their time and money into the game in order to learn that they want to get a little something back.

I've also been approached a few times by players who were godawful offering pool advice.

I always test the advice that people give me and see if it makes sense with the fundamentals of pool. Also the people I have taken advice from I've seen their speed first hand so I know 'they know' what they're talking about.

I know I've only retained a fraction of the advice I've been given freely. I'm still struggle to incorporate what I know is sound advice and the 'right way to do it' it into my game.

One time when I was at the Que Club in Costa Mesa, CA I was at the right place at the right time with the right person.:smile:

Ernesto Dominguez was in there re-fitting the tables and no one else was there but he and I. I knew who he was but I didn't want to disturb him as he was working. Ernesto came over on his own accord several times to talk and show me things. He spent a good deal of his personal time helping me out simply out of the goodness of his heart.

Ernesto was hitting the CB on spots I wouldn't dream of and saying "Yeah it's okay!" LOL!:cool:

And their was one piece of advice that Ernesto gave me that I'll never forget. Simple yet I didn't know that all those years of playing I was doing it all wrong. I still have to remind myself of that when I get down on the ball.

Anyways I just want to share my experience. Even though it was rough in the beginning I've been fortunate to have come in contact with some great players more than willing to share their knowledge for free. It just boils down to the person. My experience overall has been very positive and humbling.:smile:
 
i think the main thing that has changed is the standards for a 'gentleman' has gone out the door....

and more people see pool as a competition instead of a sport ... a sport you have people helping out each other to make their game better ... in a competition you dont
 
lessons are difficult

you can only talk at the level of the student - at places i associate with i tell them i will try to answer any questions - this way maybe they are ready for the answer - but even then some of the questions are inane - how can you show someone a power spin shot when he can't hit center ball nevermind 4:30 - i've been asked how to make a long draw when the guy doesn't have the specific pool muscles to execute it - (Sam Snead,after winning a tournament, was asked by a member how he could make a 5 iron stop like a pitching iron.Sam asked"how far can you hit a 5 iron? he replied"150 yards" Slamming Sammy replied"why would you want it to stop?" however i always try and it's been my experience that lots of players will help as long as you are willing to learn - but often it's like spitting into the wind - Years ago in Detroit i used to give Frenchie cheap 3-cushion action - when he saw how much i liked the game he stopped gambling with me and started teaching me (no charge) there are many people like that - find them
 
it's society in general, not just pool. The people are apart of society and thus it carries over.

Sad but w/e.
 
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