When do you say "enough"?

dquarasr

dquarasr

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I've been working on aiming and stroke drills from Dr. Dave.

I played really well in Best of the Rest tournament on Sunday. I thought I'd set up Dr's 10 straight in drill and it would take me a few tries to make all 10 stop shots.

I started at 8:30am. It's 12:09pm. I have been shooting nearly continuously with a few short breaks here and there.

I got the the 10th ball exactly once. Of course I missed it.

I believe I got past 5 balls maybe three or four times. In the last 45 minutes, I have shot and shot and shot and shot and shot . . . . and I have missed the FIRST ball over 50%, missed the second ball (on the rare occasions I made the first ball) over 75%, and I have not made a single third ball.

In all the successful pots in the hundreds and hundreds of shots I have made in the last three hours, exactly ONE was a true stop shot where the CB did not move or spin after contacting the OB.

To say I am frustrated is an understatement. ALL, yes, ALL my misses where CB left. ALL shots (except the single true stop shot) had the CB spinning counter-clockwise (hitting CB right of intended point, which is obviously why I am missing CB left).

My neck hurts, My shoulder hurts. My ego REALLY hurts. I cannot explain why I am missing CB left. I'll figure that out, eventually. That's not my question.

My Question: at what point do you walk away? Or do you even walk away? Push through it until you figure it out? Stop and come back tomorrow?

(I am an APA SL5 in 8 and 9, Fargo 368 based on one tournament.)

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It sounds like you may be a little too result-oriented. Playing pool, whether practicing or performing is about enjoying the process. Even if it's work, if you're enjoying the work then it's okay to continue. But inflicting physical pain on yourself and feeling discouraged is not the definition of enjoying the process.
 
FranCrimi said:
It sounds like you may be a little too result-oriented. Playing pool, whether practicing or performing is about enjoying the process. Even if it's work, if you're enjoying the work then it's okay to continue. But inflicting physical pain on yourself and feeling discouraged is not the definition of enjoying the process.
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Well, I am following "practice this until you can make x number in a row". But that's not my concern here.

My concern is that of the hundreds of shots I took, I did not hit the CB square except once, and I don't know if I should keep trying or stop. Based on your comment, it seems that taking a break is the best course of action. More concerning is that I have no figured out why I cannot hit the CB in the intended spot. I thought I had this problem solved a while ago. But I'm sure I can figure that out.

Time for a break. . . .

Thanks for responding. You always have on-target input.

(I get pain in my shoulder because in 2010 I broke my neck and when I play pool a lot, with my body bent over the shot and my face tilted toward the OB, the C6-C7 disc presses against the nerve to my left shoulder and arm. There's really nothing wrong with my shoulder.)
 
Obviously you need to buy a cf shaft.😂😂😂😂😂

Seriously, I'm no instructor but i suspect the problem is your stroke. I would set up a camera and record a session then take a good look at what you're doing.
 
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dquarasr said:
I quit squeezing the damned cue and just like that, made all 10 in a row, with nary a spin or movement from the CB.

Took me three hours to figure that out?!?!?

OK, no more pool today for me.
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"The game is in the grip" is a quote I read on here, can't remember who said it, but it has stuck with me for years.

My guess is that as your frustration grows, your grip tightens. And as the misses add up, you start anticipating them, which makes you tighten your grip even more just before contact with the cue ball.

Your grip pressure has to stay consistent throughout your entire stroke. Instead of trying to make balls, shoot them with no goal other than to maintain a consistent grip pressure from start to finish.

As for what the "correct" grip firmness should be--well, that's personal to everyone. But a safe bet is "firm enough to prevent the cue from wobbling in your hand, but loose enough to allow it to do the work instead of your hand."
 
dquarasr said:
I quit squeezing the damned cue and just like that, made all 10 in a row, with nary a spin or movement from the CB.

Took me three hours to figure that out?!?!? ...
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Lessons learned hard are lessons learned well.

But in general, if you cannot have reasonable success with a particular practice shot/drill, you should make it easier until you do. I think you got very lucky in your discovery of your particular problem. It sounds like it should benefit all of your shots.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
Lessons learned hard are lessons learned well.

But in general, if you cannot have reasonable success with a particular practice shot/drill, you should make it easier until you do. I think you got very luck in your discovery of your particular problem. It sounds like it should benefit all of your shots.
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I considered making the drill easier but I guess I'm stubborn. I knew I'd figure it out as I usually come up with the solution, and in fact, this particular problem I've already identified in the past (memory problems?!? You betcha!) That's why I didn't necessarily ask for input on what the root cause might have been, but rather asked about whether to keep going or take a sustained break. Turns out taking a medium-length break then coming back to the table a little more "fresh" helped me identify the problem.

Bob, you're right, and I knew that already but I didn't heed it; making the shot easier would have taken away some of the stress. Which is what BlueRaider pointed out here and it spiraled:

BlueRaider said:
My guess is that as your frustration grows, your grip tightens. And as the misses add up, you start anticipating them, which makes you tighten your grip even more just before contact with the cue ball.
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I suspect this exact thing, squeezing the cue, is why I start out in league shooting well the first few racks then slowly start to get worse. This weekend at Best of the Rest tournament, I stayed very loose and confident, trusting my stroke my entire match. I shot consistently all the way through my match. I'll have to keep this li'l tidbit in my back pocket. It's a process and a journey.
 
dquarasr said:
I've been working on aiming and stroke drills from Dr. Dave.

I played really well in Best of the Rest tournament on Sunday. I thought I'd set up Dr's 10 straight in drill and it would take me a few tries to make all 10 stop shots.

I started at 8:30am. It's 12:09pm. I have been shooting nearly continuously with a few short breaks here and there.

I got the the 10th ball exactly once. Of course I missed it.

I believe I got past 5 balls maybe three or four times. In the last 45 minutes, I have shot and shot and shot and shot and shot . . . . and I have missed the FIRST ball over 50%, missed the second ball (on the rare occasions I made the first ball) over 75%, and I have not made a single third ball.

In all the successful pots in the hundreds and hundreds of shots I have made in the last three hours, exactly ONE was a true stop shot where the CB did not move or spin after contacting the OB.

To say I am frustrated is an understatement. ALL, yes, ALL my misses where CB left. ALL shots (except the single true stop shot) had the CB spinning counter-clockwise (hitting CB right of intended point, which is obviously why I am missing CB left).

My neck hurts, My shoulder hurts. My ego REALLY hurts. I cannot explain why I am missing CB left. I'll figure that out, eventually. That's not my question.

My Question: at what point do you walk away? Or do you even walk away? Push through it until you figure it out? Stop and come back tomorrow?

(I am an APA SL5 in 8 and 9, Fargo 368 based on one tournament.)

View attachment 645352
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I use an "on and off" drill for students with consistent misses. Pause at address and decide whether the cue tip is on or off the point of aim. If off, stand up and assume the stance again before shooting.

If you cannot do this on your own, I can coach you through it. If it's a stroke flaw--usually it's a stance/aim/vision flaw, I will follow through and help you.
 
dquarasr said:
My Question: at what point do you walk away? Or do you even walk away? Push through it until you figure it out? Stop and come back tomorrow?
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Not an instructor. IMO once you're bored or tired, walk away. You won't learn anything when you are bored or tired. 30 minutes of focused drills is more than most people can handle at a time unless they are some kind of focus giant. Personally I can only drill for about 10 minutes. I can play for hours and hours but once I feel the boredom kick in I'm not learning anything.

This comes from a guy who was playing up to 5 races to 20 in a night just to get more playtime in. I don't think it made me that much better. Just made it tougher to have good form once the fatigue set in. I don't regret doing it, but I broke my body. My hip and back have never been the same and this was probably 4-6 months ago. Physical pain, past minor aches is a sign you've done too much.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
I use an "on and off" drill for students with consistent misses. Pause at address and decide whether the cue tip is on or off the point of aim. If off, stand up and assume the stance again before shooting.

If you cannot do this on your own, I can coach you through it. If it's a stroke flaw--usually it's a stance/aim/vision flaw, I will follow through and help you.
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Thanks, Matt.

I know it was a stroke delivery problem. I checked and checked cue position. I test cue and stance alignment technique by getting down on a theoretical spot-to-spot shot. If I position my cue and myself correctly, the cue should be directly over the short rail center diamond where I am standing. It is consistently. I also line up this shot with a CB, carefully put the cue down, and go around looking at whether the tip is centered.

I was sure it was stroke because I could sometimes feel it. But I didn’t identify a fix right away.

After some thought and a break from the table, I realized I was squeezing the stick, resulting in me twisting my wrist inboard (left), making the tip go right, deflecting the CB left. When I quit squeezing the stick, with my grip relaxed, I posted 10 in a row first try. And I got hardly any CB movement on these stop shots, some of them stopping dead with no spin. This was repeatable later on, too.
 
dquarasr said:
Thanks, Matt.

I know it was a stroke delivery problem. I checked and checked cue position. I test cue and stance alignment technique by getting down on a theoretical spot-to-spot shot. If I position my cue and myself correctly, the cue should be directly over the short rail center diamond where I am standing. It is consistently. I also line up this shot with a CB, carefully put the cue down, and go around looking at whether the tip is centered.

I was sure it was stroke because I could sometimes feel it. But I didn’t identify a fix right away.

After some thought and a break from the table, I realized I was squeezing the stick, resulting in me twisting my wrist inboard (left), making the tip go right, deflecting the CB left. When I quit squeezing the stick, with my grip relaxed, I posted 10 in a row first try. And I got hardly any CB movement on these stop shots, some of them stopping dead with no spin. This was repeatable later on, too.
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Super, you can have the same "on and off" PSR with grip, of course. WELL DONE!
 
dquarasr said:
I've been working on aiming and stroke drills from Dr. Dave.

I played really well in Best of the Rest tournament on Sunday. I thought I'd set up Dr's 10 straight in drill and it would take me a few tries to make all 10 stop shots.

I started at 8:30am. It's 12:09pm. I have been shooting nearly continuously with a few short breaks here and there.

I got the the 10th ball exactly once. Of course I missed it.

I believe I got past 5 balls maybe three or four times. In the last 45 minutes, I have shot and shot and shot and shot and shot . . . . and I have missed the FIRST ball over 50%, missed the second ball (on the rare occasions I made the first ball) over 75%, and I have not made a single third ball.

In all the successful pots in the hundreds and hundreds of shots I have made in the last three hours, exactly ONE was a true stop shot where the CB did not move or spin after contacting the OB.

To say I am frustrated is an understatement. ALL, yes, ALL my misses where CB left. ALL shots (except the single true stop shot) had the CB spinning counter-clockwise (hitting CB right of intended point, which is obviously why I am missing CB left).

My neck hurts, My shoulder hurts. My ego REALLY hurts. I cannot explain why I am missing CB left. I'll figure that out, eventually. That's not my question.

My Question: at what point do you walk away? Or do you even walk away? Push through it until you figure it out? Stop and come back tomorrow?

(I am an APA SL5 in 8 and 9, Fargo 368 based on one tournament.)

View attachment 645352
Click to expand...
You walk away after 15 minute bursts. After 15 minute sessions your attention span disintegrates.
 
boogieman said:
Not an instructor. IMO once you're bored or tired, walk away. You won't learn anything when you are bored or tired. 30 minutes of focused drills is more than most people can handle at a time unless they are some kind of focus giant. Personally I can only drill for about 10 minutes. I can play for hours and hours but once I feel the boredom kick in I'm not learning anything.

This comes from a guy who was playing up to 5 races to 20 in a night just to get more playtime in. I don't think it made me that much better. Just made it tougher to have good form once the fatigue set in. I don't regret doing it, but I broke my body. My hip and back have never been the same and this was probably 4-6 months ago. Physical pain, past minor aches is a sign you've done too much.
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This is good advice; something musicians are taught early - the idea being achievement without counter productive stress. Self schooling can be a treacherous thing especially if you start off with the knobs on the fanatical side of the scale. It's very easy to lose sight of the primary objectives or worse, draw incorrect conclusions concerning or affecting them. I'm of the opinion that most issues are those of technique anyway and those only respond at the speed of muscle repair and growth. 24 hour periods, days, weeks etc...
 
Wow. You had a great outcome, you've learned a massive amount from this drill. Kudos to you for registering specifically how you were missing your shots, and of course for working out how to fix it so effectively.

I'm not an instructor, but it sounds to me like it's worth considering building a grip check or grip relaxation into your normal shot routine. (I did something similar with forearm relaxation and elbow alignment (hanging vertically) with very good results. I think my disposition was similar to yours in being overly results-focused, to the detriment of having rich awareness of the process while playing. But I fixed that too.)
 
straightline said:
This is good advice; something musicians are taught early - the idea being achievement without counter productive stress. Self schooling can be a treacherous thing especially if you start off with the knobs on the fanatical side of the scale. It's very easy to lose sight of the primary objectives or worse, draw incorrect conclusions concerning or affecting them. I'm of the opinion that most issues are those of technique anyway and those only respond at the speed of muscle repair and growth. 24 hour periods, days, weeks etc...
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It takes time for new neurons to be built. Usually this kind of stuff takes place in rest or sleep. Muscle memory is building new neural pathways. I don't like to dive too deep into what exactly the subconscious is (mainly because I don't know) but I'd imagine it has to do with building new neurons in the right places. The more you exercise them and the more you build those clusters, the more you can offload to them.
 
boogieman said:
It takes time for new neurons to be built. Usually this kind of stuff takes place in rest or sleep. Muscle memory is building new neural pathways. I don't like to dive too deep into what exactly the subconscious is (mainly because I don't know) but I'd imagine it has to do with building new neurons in the right places. The more you exercise them and the more you build those clusters, the more you can offload to them.
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Nova had a brains show (lol) and they showed neurons or maybe it was synapses generating out of nothing and it was literally watching someone think. Stunning.
 
dquarasr said:
After some thought and a break from the table, I realized I was squeezing the stick, resulting in me twisting my wrist inboard (left), making the tip go right, deflecting the CB left. When I quit squeezing the stick, with my grip relaxed, I posted 10 in a row first try. And I got hardly any CB movement on these stop shots, some of them stopping dead with no spin. This was repeatable later on, too.
Click to expand...
Feels good to figure it out conclusively, doesn't it? People can tell you to have a relaxed whatever but until you can do it yourself and really understand what it feels like you just won't know.
 
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Sounds like you expect instance results.

Build skill is something that takes time, nothing good happens fast.
 
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