When is english necessary?

[Positively Ralf]

I recently was watching a danny diliberto instructional 14.1 video and the person receiving the lesson asked about English. danny said that 99% of the time you will only be hitting middle, follow and draw and that English was this imaginary thing that most low to intermediate players want to make more important than it is.

so I ask, when is English really necessary if the majority of the time we only use draw, follow and dead center? I'm assuming it is used mainly for position or safety play.

 

[Neil]

When you need to change the natural angle off a rail.

 

[Pelican1989]

I recently was watching a danny diliberto instructional 14.1 video and the person receiving the lesson asked about English. danny said that 99% of the time you will only be hitting middle, follow and draw and that English was this imaginary thing that most low to intermediate players want to make more important than it is.

so I ask, when is English really necessary if the majority of the time we only use draw, follow and dead center? I'm assuming it is used mainly for position or safety play.

depends on whether you mean necessary as "necessary" or as "useful"

english is very useful almost all the time

I'm an apa 7-7 and i use english on id say....75% of my shots

now 90% of the time the english like VERY slight, aka like 1/4 tip or so, and I would say 80% of the time i use english i'm using outside english, JUST ENOUGH to get "gearing" english which has the effect of counteracting "contact throw" and thus allows you to aim shoot through the "line of centers" as opposed to having to overcut the shot (or consider speed, as slow and fast speed create more and less contact throw)

if I'm shooting the 8 ball or 9 ball, and I don't need to play position for any reason I will still often use this gearing English, simply because I find its actually easier to aim and have better accuracy, the exception to this being on longer shots where the margin of error from the english and swerve effects make it less accurate

english however sometimes is truly "necessary" as well, such as if you only can hit a ball straight due to a blocking ball, but need to cut it, you can use english to create contact throw to help the ball cut more(or less with inside)

also a very useful aspect of english is playing running or reverse english, not for angle off the rail, but rather to modulate speed off the rail, using reverse english to kill the speed can make your range of avoiding an error bigger aka make the shot easier. Similarly running english can be used to avoid having to over-hit the ball with speed thus making the ball less likely to rattle in the jaws

and of course, with the same ball path into the rail, running or reverse english can change the angle leaving the rail to allow you to avoid ball or hit balls

also if you're shooting a ball parallel to a rail (the path from the object ball to the pocket), inside english helps the ball roll off the far inner throat of the pocket and in, rather than rattling in the jaws

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I recently was watching a danny diliberto instructional 14.1 video and the person receiving the lesson asked about English. danny said that 99% of the time you will only be hitting middle, follow and draw and that English was this imaginary thing that most low to intermediate players want to make more important than it is.

so I ask, when is English really necessary if the majority of the time we only use draw, follow and dead center? I'm assuming it is used mainly for position or safety play.

He is correct from the pro perspective--I might play Nine Ball for half an hour and use vertical axis only--and intermediates need to learn numerous ball control techniques before they complicate with english--but where possible, pros use a dash of english here, a quarter-tip of english there.

I hit my english strokes very close to center axis (for most english shots) using cueing techniques I've learned that give a lot of spin. I see amateurs cue two tips off center where I would be a fraction off-center to give the same results.

You want to bear in mind, to contextualize what was said, that pros will give a little twisting motion of the cue that is nothing like the parallel "english" and other wrong techniques that amateurs use. I've seen players apply english and when asked, they claim they aren't consciously using english because their movements are so subtle, almost automated. Does that make sense to you?

 

[BilliardsAbout]

depends on whether you mean necessary as "necessary" or as "useful"

english is very useful almost all the time

I'm an apa 7-7 and i use english on id say....75% of my shots

now 90% of the time the english like VERY slight, aka like 1/4 tip or so, and I would say 80% of the time i use english i'm using outside english, JUST ENOUGH to get "gearing" english which has the effect of counteracting "contact throw" and thus allows you to aim shoot through the "line of centers" as opposed to having to overcut the shot (or consider speed, as slow and fast speed create more and less contact throw)

if I'm shooting the 8 ball or 9 ball, and I don't need to play position for any reason I will still often use this gearing English, simply because I find its actually easier to aim and have better accuracy, the exception to this being on longer shots where the margin of error from the english and swerve effects make it less accurate

english however sometimes is truly "necessary" as well, such as if you only can hit a ball straight due to a blocking ball, but need to cut it, you can use english to create contact throw to help the ball cut more(or less with inside)

also a very useful aspect of english is playing running or reverse english, not for angle off the rail, but rather to modulate speed off the rail, using reverse english to kill the speed can make your range of avoiding an error bigger aka make the shot easier. Similarly running english can be used to avoid having to over-hit the ball with speed thus making the ball less likely to rattle in the jaws

and of course, with the same ball path into the rail, running or reverse english can change the angle leaving the rail to allow you to avoid ball or hit balls

also if you're shooting a ball parallel to a rail (the path from the object ball to the pocket), inside english helps the ball roll off the far inner throat of the pocket and in, rather than rattling in the jaws

Agreed. I use things like an aim system that adds a dash of outside to most cuts.

 

[Bobkitty]

I recently was watching a danny diliberto instructional 14.1 video and the person receiving the lesson asked about English. danny said that 99% of the time you will only be hitting middle, follow and draw and that English was this imaginary thing that most low to intermediate players want to make more important than it is.

so I ask, when is English really necessary if the majority of the time we only use draw, follow and dead center? I'm assuming it is used mainly for position or safety play.

I'm an amateur player but just wanted to post this: https://youtu.be/fjEGe0_rP2k. This is a video I took about 6 months ago, just working on my stop shot + 6 inches. This shot is a "center ball hit" hit at about 2.5 table speed. When we have a cut shot, a stop shot will exactly go off at 90 degrees, but the shot that I'm performing here will go off a few inches ahead of a tangent. It is a pure ball roll without the forward bend or the reverse bend just like the tangent line CB roll. If a great player can get about a 20 degree angle on his next shot, he can move the CB around the table just using "roll". The shot I'm performing can be done at a very soft, drag and draw, and all the harder strokes. Just a combination of hit on the CB with the strength of shot. On the straight ins, it doesn't make to much difference, but it's the way to practice it. On the cuts, it becomes a very nice shot. A truly great way to play the game.... running a nine ball or ten ball pattern with just using roll around CB. My teacher can do it time after time. English is only used about 2% of the time the way he can play the game. A true "dime" sized stroke on the CB. I practice this shot daily.

 

[Scott Lee]

Matt...The CB doesn't have a brain. Whatever happens is only concerned with angle, speed, and spin. Therefore one cannot get the same "spin" on the CB striking at a "1/4 tip" vs 2-3 tips offset...regardless of "technique".

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I see amateurs cue two tips off center where I would be a fraction off-center to give the same results.

 

[bbb]

Matt...The CB doesn't have a brain. Whatever happens is only concerned with angle, speed, and spin. Therefore one cannot get the same "spin" on the CB striking at a "1/4 tip" vs 2-3 tips offset...regardless of "technique".

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

scott
i edit this to say i agree

 

[bbb]

He is correct from the pro perspective--I might play Nine Ball for half an hour and use vertical axis only--and intermediates need to learn numerous ball control techniques before they complicate with english--but where possible, pros use a dash of english here, a quarter-tip of english there.

I hit my english strokes very close to center axis (for most english shots) using cueing techniques I've learned that give a lot of spin. I see amateurs cue two tips off center where I would be a fraction off-center to give the same results.

You want to bear in mind, to contextualize what was said, that pros will give a little twisting motion of the cue that is nothing like the parallel "english" and other wrong techniques that amateurs use. I've seen players apply english and when asked, they claim they aren't consciously using english because their movements are so subtle, almost automated. Does that make sense to you?

can you explain how you can get "extra" action with less offset please ?
pm answer ok

 

[greyghost]

can you explain how you can get "extra" action with less offset please ?
pm answer ok

There’s no such thing other than say having a good stroke and not bunting....but I do agree many amateurs use way too much spin when less would do the job.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bobkitty]

can you explain how you can get "extra" action with less offset please ?
pm answer ok

No PM! I would like to know that too.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Matt...The CB doesn't have a brain. Whatever happens is only concerned with angle, speed, and spin. Therefore one cannot get the same "spin" on the CB striking at a "1/4 tip" vs 2-3 tips offset...regardless of "technique".

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Angle, yes. Spin, yes.

Consider two strokes taken at the same stroke speed. The glancing blow of a parallel english stroke with center cue tip aimed two tips right of center is less efficient than a different type of english stroke angle applied closer to the center of mass of the ball.

I'm saying that the pro statement "hit at center" also often applies to those english strokes taken very near the center axis, efficiently. Efficiently includes not hitting the cue ball so hard that forward momentum overcomes rotational momentum.

In clinics, I let students struggle with english for a bit and then have them shoot softly, very near center with a slightly pivoting stroke. They get a degree of english off the rail they've never gotten before.

Your statement above is absolutely correct if the same english stroke is applied at Point A and Point B on the cue ball. However, amateurs find pivot english (not backhand english, but with the bridge hand on line and the cue twisted through the bridge hand at address) very difficult to score the object ball, let alone apply english over a distance, at two tips or more off center near the miscue region . . .

. . . So a lot of amateurs bring both hands parallel over two tips to shoot two tips english, rather than stroking smoothly near center with slightly pivoted backhand english.

A dash of pro-style english near the center is more efficient than a stroke that is essentially a deliberate miscue.

Now, eliminate intentional english from the equation for a moment to see where I'm coming from. Any pro or hustler who understands what they're doing will say "the vertical axis gives maximum everything from speed control to feel" because shots are clustered on a straight angle of attack near the peach pit of the cue ball, the center of mass. I've spoken with any number of pros and top players who take the majority of their shots near center including english for maximal control.

I once in a while use a parallel stroke, say, as an aiming aid with inside since inside barely affect thick cuts. I occasionally use a pivot english stroke, say, from shooting inside some weird cluster of interference balls or playing a Straight Pool or One Pocket safety. But in most cases, I should able to get anywhere on the table with a 1/4 tip of english if my speed and stroke angle (the factors you mentioned exactly) are solid.

 

[Scott Lee]

Matt...The only three things we have any control over, in any pool shot (and they are present in every shot), are angle, speed, and spin. You're confused as to what the term angle refers to. It does NOT refer to cut angle...it refers to level cue. The only other controllable variables in any shot are speed and spin.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Angle, yes. Spin, yes.

 

[Neil]

Angle, yes. Spin, yes.

Consider two strokes taken at the same stroke speed. The glancing blow of a parallel english stroke with center cue tip aimed two tips right of center is less efficient than a different type of english stroke angle applied closer to the center of mass of the ball.

I'm saying that the pro statement "hit at center" also often applies to those english strokes taken very near the center axis, efficiently. Efficiently includes not hitting the cue ball so hard that forward momentum overcomes rotational momentum.

In clinics, I let students struggle with english for a bit and then have them shoot softly, very near center with a slightly pivoting stroke. They get a degree of english off the rail they've never gotten before.

Your statement above is absolutely correct if the same english stroke is applied at Point A and Point B on the cue ball. However, amateurs find pivot english (not backhand english, but with the bridge hand on line and the cue twisted through the bridge hand at address) very difficult to score the object ball, let alone apply english over a distance, at two tips or more off center near the miscue region . . .

. . . So a lot of amateurs bring both hands parallel over two tips to shoot two tips english, rather than stroking smoothly near center with slightly pivoted backhand english.

A dash of pro-style english near the center is more efficient than a stroke that is essentially a deliberate miscue.

Now, eliminate intentional english from the equation for a moment to see where I'm coming from. Any pro or hustler who understands what they're doing will say "the vertical axis gives maximum everything from speed control to feel" because shots are clustered on a straight angle of attack near the peach pit of the cue ball, the center of mass. I've spoken with any number of pros and top players who take the majority of their shots near center including english for maximal control.

I once in a while use a parallel stroke, say, as an aiming aid with inside since inside barely affect thick cuts. I occasionally use a pivot english stroke, say, from shooting inside some weird cluster of interference balls or playing a Straight Pool or One Pocket safety. But in most cases, I should able to get anywhere on the table with a 1/4 tip of english if my speed and stroke angle (the factors you mentioned exactly) are solid.

Dr. Dave has some studies on this that you might want to read up on.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Matt...The only three things we have any control over, in any pool shot (and they are present in every shot), are angle, speed, and spin. You're confused as to what the term angle refers to. It does NOT refer to cut angle...it refers to level cue. The only other controllable variables in any shot are speed and spin.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

You are correct. I'm neither referring to level cue angle nor cut angle between cue ball and object ball. I'm referring to approach angle of the cue stick.

A parallel english stroke hitting two tips of right english has both hands over from center ball two tips. The cue is struck through the cue ball at a zero angle parallel to the shot line.

A backhand english stroke or a pivot english stroke can begin, as you know, with the bridge hand and stroke hand at center ball, and then veer off so that the cue tip strikes two tips of english right of center ball. Both strokes hit the same point on the cue ball from different approach angles. One of the these cue sticks comes through at zero angle and one at a more oblique angle.

These two different strokes add different elements of force, the portion of the tip striking the cue ball, momentum through the cue ball. These are two different shots. Forgive the poor freehand drawing:

Your point IS correct regarding the cue ball behaving per physics, however, the cue ball will behave differently on these two strokes taken in two different directions of attack, one more towards the center of the mass of the cue ball, on any given cut shot after rail collision or a kick shot.

And the "english is the same argument" is not allowing for different parts of the tip making contact and moving the center of mass. Strike a fixed globe on a stand at an oblique angle to spin it, then use the same force of hit to the same spot on the globe at an angle parallel to dead center.

One of those globe hits sends America and France spinning round wildly, the other can knock the globe over onto its side! Take the globe analogy down to the cue ball level.

One of those strokes, though both stroke angles are taken at the same speed, provides more squirt and more forward momentum which fights against rotational momentum.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Dr. Dave has some studies on this that you might want to read up on.

I've read 100% of Dr. Dave Alciatore's website and am familiar with all of his assertions regarding the myths and magic of backhand english. They are from the physical standpoint correct.

Note, however, that if you exaggerate the angle in my diagram, one of those strokes can score a nearby object ball and the other would miss it. You can, likewise, point out the correct cue ball aim point and have a friend miss the shot while shooting through that EXACT point because their angle of approach is incorrect.

Or, consider it this way, since the point was made regarding a level cue. You can change the vertical approach plane of a cue stick to strike the exact same point as before on the cue ball and provide different effects on the cue ball such as jumping the ball or an exaggerated curve. Changing the horizontal angle of attack through Point X can be as dramatic a difference as a vertical change toward Point X.

I get as much english striking closer to the cue ball with correct technique including soft speed, as mentioned already, as an amateur gets with a parallel "english" stroke and exacerbated squirt and throw.

I am most certainly insisting that the same degree of level cue, the same speed and etc. create two different paths for a cue ball when struck through Point X at different angles of approach. We angle our cue stick by aligning it to a different shot line for the next shot . . .

. . . you can test my assumptions easily. Set a cue ball on a dead straight shot into an object ball three feet away at center table. First, hit through center ball on a straight full shot into the corner pocket. Next, place your body stance two feet to either side of where you would normally stand and stroke straight ahead and through the exact same spot on the cue ball you struck the first time. You will miss the object ball entirely. You may even miscue the stroke.

Hitting a sheet of paper straight on can ball the paper around your fist. Hitting the same punch at an oblique angle can make the paper fly up and away without it crumpling.

One more analogy may help? I stand in front of you, facing you, my feet together under my body, touching along their sides. A punch to my midsection at my navel causes me to double over in pain. Ouch! A punch to my obliques or love handles may cause me to spin around instead.

Think of the cue ball as a spinning top, which it sort of is in this example. Strikes at two different angles to the same spot have varying degrees of efficiency regarding forward momentum and rotational momentum.

And I am unanimous in that!

 

[BilliardsAbout]

No PM! I would like to know that too.

Let's start with technique (if I understand correctly that by offset you mean "tips of english"). For a an easy to score shot, cue ball near object ball, object ball near pocket and rail, how are you applying english, parallel, backhand or pivoted?

 

[Neil]

Matt, where I believe you go wrong is the actual ccb. You keep the ccb in the same place for both shots. You reference ccb from where you are standing looking at the cb, and not referencing it to the real ccb. Which is determined by the angle of attack of the cue.

Where you claim you are hitting close to center with an angled cue, in reality, from the cues perspective, you actually are hitting several tips from center. It only looks like it is near center from your viewing point.

 

[bbb]

i am sorry i havent read all of your posts since its late for me and just finishing dinner
but '
your diagram of the pivot
since the FORWARD vector has changed why do you think you will hit the same spot
on the object ball as the parrallel

 

[FranCrimi]

I recently was watching a danny diliberto instructional 14.1 video and the person receiving the lesson asked about English. danny said that 99% of the time you will only be hitting middle, follow and draw and that English was this imaginary thing that most low to intermediate players want to make more important than it is.

so I ask, when is English really necessary if the majority of the time we only use draw, follow and dead center? I'm assuming it is used mainly for position or safety play.

It depends on your style of play and the type of position you prefer playing. Players who prefer to punch the ball, like Danny D., will play position to get a more precise angle to accommodate their punch style. Many of these players came from a 14.1 background.

Other players accept a greater margin for error and are more comfortable in using side spin to make up the difference in a less precise angle. These players are more comfortable shooting longer, more difficult shots.

But the bottom line is that side spin is mostly used when the angle you got for yourself, or was left by your opponent, isn't satisfactory to get you to the next shot by using just stun, top spin or back spin.