# Where is the cue ball going to go? Tried and true learning method?

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Coincidentally, this came up in another thread today here. Somebody posted Bob Jewett's graph of the carom angles for a rolling CB hitting the OB at various cut angles. Here's my table of numbers for it.

The last column may be the most helpful - the percentages there show how close to the tangent line the CB will roll (compared with the aim line).

Hope it helps,

pj
chgo

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#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
One thing I've done for years to get a good feel for cueball control is to play a game with myself where I put a single ball on the table and try to scratch off of that ball. Keep score of how many you can make in a row.

Start with CB behind the string and OB a half diamond off the center foot rail. The first scratch can be made in either corner with a firm draw stroke and the cueball about a diamond off the head spot. Aim at the opposite edge of the OB and the cueball will slide right in the corner.

After each scratch put the CB anywhere behind the string on the opposite end of the table where the OB ends up.

This has helped me visualize how to get the CB to go exactly where I want on a variety of shots. You'll also start being able to carom in hangers from all over the place.
There's a game like this (called "Hollywood" maybe?)...

Instead of shooting the CB into the OB to pocket it, you shoot the OB into the CB to make an "in-off" (carom off the CB into a pocket).

pj
chgo

#### brianp

##### New member
I struggled for a long time with this as well -- particularly the rolling CB vs various following hits. I always seemed to underestimate how far the CB deflected on follow shots, and rolling the ball was equally unpredictable.

This has actually become a strength in my game now with two drills.

The first, I dont know the name of. I made it up myself but I am sure I am not the first person to do it. I put all 15 balls out, and simply play off various shots, but I need to play forward on every shot, and on each shot the CB must hit another ball. This forces you to play various speeds, with various high tip positions (from stun follows to force follows and rolls), plus inside and outside for first rail effect.

The second one that did wonders for me is the Daren Appleton follow drill -- very hard for most amateurs to complete, but extremely beneficial regardless. In just one week of this, I had a MUCH better feel for rolls and follows.

In that drill you have to pay very close attention to the exact line. So rather than only OBSERVING, you also have to make PREDICTIVE estimates and then immediately see whether a bit more right, left, etc is needed. A brilliant drill, and one that changed this part of my game almost overnight! NOTE: the guy in this video plays most of these with a lot of follow and inside for 2 rail position... Appleton takes a much more useful approach for the problem we have - play the correct angle up off ONE rail where possible and only use the 2 rail if you are too straight. Otherwise you can use high-inside and see exactly the line of the CB off the object ball...

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#### bounoun

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The second one that did wonders for me is the Daren Appleton follow drill -- very hard for most amateurs to complete, but extremely beneficial regardless. In just one week of this, I had a MUCH better feel for rolls and follows.

In that drill you have to pay very close attention to the exact line. So rather than only OBSERVING, you also have to make PREDICTIVE estimates and then immediately see whether a bit more right, left, etc is needed. A brilliant drill, and one that changed this part of my game almost overnight! NOTE: the guy in this video plays most of these with a lot of follow and inside for 2 rail position... Appleton takes a much more useful approach for the problem we have - play the correct angle up off ONE rail where possible and only use the 2 rail if you are too straight. Otherwise you can use high-inside and see exactly the line of the CB off the object ball...

Thats a brilliant drill. I know snooker players do the line up this way to make it harder since you only have one ball to play for.

#### skipbales

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hello. Is there a tried and true method (drill) for training my brain to know where a centerball-shot CB is going to go with only natural roll after striking the OB ?

I'm confounded by this after many false starts at trying to grasp it so I just want to head on the right path this time. I feel that my conundrum is akin to the people who can't just see how to aim. Aiming and executing shots has always been so obvious to me so I sort of wonder if I just don't "have it in me" to learn this concept since I have yet to figure it out.

I'm a decent player, used to be much better (at shooting, always a weak shape maker). I understand the concepts of the 90 degree and 30 degree rule, I understand spin and can use it "correctly" to move the CB around.... only very roughly. 90 degree sliding CB, I get. Rolling CB, forget it. Even Dr Dave's "peace sign" method doesn't work all that well for me. I have and have read several books on pool

My home table is littered with gummed dots for practice a la Robert Byrne but I'm still missing the fundamental eye for leaves despite hours and hours of various drills with so much other stuff to watch on the table. So, again, what can be done to specifically focus on getting it into my brain "on which line is the CB naturally going to roll" on any given cut shot? I know it may seem ridiculous to not see the answer, just as I don't understand (I say that without judging) how people can't see shooting angles. I know that those people can be taught so how do people who don't see, more or less, precise angle of deflection learn this?
BTW I used the percent sign because I have no idea how to make a degree sign. IT is degrees not percent.

I am not an instructor but have seen many discuss the issue and the best overall explanation I have found is Dr. Dave's. A summary and combination of other teachings might be:
1. A sliding object deflects 90 degrees when it collides with a stationary object. So a widespread thumb and index finger with the thumb down the line will point to the angle of deflection for a "stun shot" or sliding cue ball. This line is referred to as the "tangent line" or "shot line" as a rule.
2. A rolling cue ball deflects roughly 30 degrees over a wide range of angles of from about 1/4 ball to 3/4 ball with 1/2 ball being the largest. The range is about 25% to 35% and back to 25%. The "Dr. Dave peace sign" is roughly 30% and helps get you close. For greater and lesser angles the deflection is closer to 1/2 that so bring your fingers together about half way.
3. "High action" or "force follow" or "rapid forward roll" (no arguments about overspin please) will deflect less than medium speed rolling cue ball. How much it varies is dependent on the angle, speed and distance.

On really thin cuts the ball follows the tangent line with top, center and low spin having almost no effect on direction. Those and left and right do affect speed and direction after collision with a rail but not the line of travel after contact with the object ball until the cue ball hits something more solid.

Ultimately you have to get a feel for the shots but having a general idea of what to expect can save you a lot of unnecessary scratch shots and give you a pretty good feel for what influences the cue ball direction.

This information helped me. I hope it helps you as well.

#### DrCue'sProtege

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thank you all for the comments.

Last night I found an apparently well-known drill and tailored it to my brain this morning. I will post pics and details later. I totally get where all of you are coming from with regard to feel vs "math/calculations." Thats what I want and where I've been stuck, respectively, despite trying to watch the CB for years. I'm obviously a little slow on the uptake in this regard! Presumably none of you will need it but I'll post for others like me who have been stuck trying to "get there." Again, thanks.

Well, where are the pics and details for what you did???

r/DCP

#### Scott Lee

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pat...That game is called "kiss pool", and Willie Jopling was the first person to write down the rules. See you tomorrow! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

There's a game like this (called "Hollywood" maybe?)...

Instead of shooting the CB into the OB to pocket it, you shoot the OB into the CB to make an "in-off" (carom off the CB into a pocket).

pj
chgo

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Coincidentally, this came up in another thread today here. Somebody posted Bob Jewett's graph of the carom angles for a rolling CB hitting the OB at various cut angles. Here's my table of numbers for it.

The last column may be the most helpful - the percentages there show how close to the tangent line the CB will roll (compared with the aim line).

Hope it helps,

pj
chgo

View attachment 54071
I made a graphic representation of these cut angles, tangent lines and CB paths, just to see if any easy-to-visualize rules of thumb jumped out at me. Didn't help me much, although I can see:
- the CB path getting closer to the tangent line as the cut angle increases
- the CB caroming wider close to half ball and steeper farther from half ball (both fatter and thinner)

Maybe you'll see more than I did.

pj
chgo

P.S. Dashed lines are tangent lines. White lines are CB paths. Black lines are the common fractional cuts (1/4 ball, 1/2 ball, 3/4 ball). The grey balls are the two common fractional cuts that aren't tenths (1/4 and 3/4).

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#### skipbales

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nice diagram

I made a graphic representation of these cut angles, tangent lines and CB paths, just to see if any easy-to-visualize rules of thumb jumped out at me. Didn't help me much (although I can see the CB path getting closer to the tangent line as the cut angle increases, as expected)... maybe you'll see more than I did.

pj
chgo

View attachment 67064

This is a great presentation of the information. It really helps to visualize the rolling cue ball path as the cut angle changes.

#### BeiberLvr

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I recently got Capelle's Play Your Best 9 & 10 Ball.

One (of the many) practice drills he recommends for cue ball control is to practice a shot over and over again, while at the same time trying to hit another object ball with the cue ball (after it contacts the first object ball).

#### skipbales

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
target

I recently got Capelle's Play Your Best 9 & 10 Ball.

One (of the many) practice drills he recommends for cue ball control is to practice a shot over and over again, while at the same time trying to hit another object ball with the cue ball (after it contacts the first object ball).

Most instruction videos include that in one format or another. I like the one with the "doughnut". You cut a circle (or oval) out of a sheet of paper and put the cue ball in the doughnut hole as a target. It is easy to move around and makes for a quick and easy target setup.

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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Gold Member
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I made a graphic representation of these cut angles, tangent lines and CB paths, just to see if any easy-to-visualize rules of thumb jumped out at me. Didn't help me much, ... Maybe you'll see more than I did.
...
There is a fairly simple geometric construction that gives the outbound direction of a rolling cue ball for any cut angle. By "fairly simple" I mean that you have to be able to set up one line at a right angle to another, see where two lines intersect, and find the mid-point of a line segment and not much more. See the last article in:

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1998.pdf

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
There is a fairly simple geometric construction that gives the outbound direction of a rolling cue ball for any cut angle. By "fairly simple" I mean that you have to be able to set up one line at a right angle to another, see where two lines intersect, and find the mid-point of a line segment and not much more. See the last article in:

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1998.pdf
I've wondered if there was a way to do that - it reminds me of Coriolis' method for aiming masse shots. I just tried it out and it's remarkably accurate.

Thanks, Bob.

pj
chgo

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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I've wondered if there was a way to do that - it reminds me of Coriolis' method for aiming masse shots. I just tried it out and it's remarkably accurate.

Thanks, Bob.

pj
chgo

I find it easiest to visualize for cuts thinner than half-ball. For fairly full hits there is the three-times-angle system, of course.

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I find it easiest to visualize for cuts thinner than half-ball.
Here's a diagram showing that the 1:3 ratio applies on either side of the OB. When the line through the CB goes off the table (as shown here), visualizing a line (parallel to the tangent line) passing through the OB's path might make it easier to see the 1:3 ratio. It also has the advantage of pointing directly at where the CB will go.

pj
chgo

P.S. I drew this on a screen capture from VP4, which models the CB's path exactly as you describe.

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• Calc OB carom path.jpg
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#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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Here's a diagram showing that the 1:3 ratio applies on either side of the OB. When the line through the CB goes off the table (as shown here), visualizing a line (parallel to the tangent line) passing through the OB's path might make it easier to see the 1:3 ratio. It also has the advantage of pointing directly at where the CB will go.

pj
chgo

P.S. I drew this on a screen capture from VP4, which models the CB's path exactly as you describe.

...
Nice graphic. Note that an easy way to get to the 1:3 point is to double the 1 and then double again:
1
1:1
1:1:1:1 = 1:3

#### bbb

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
isnt the peace sign easier??

#### Neil

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's a diagram showing that the 1:3 ratio applies on either side of the OB. When the line through the CB goes off the table (as shown here), visualizing a line (parallel to the tangent line) passing through the OB's path might make it easier to see the 1:3 ratio. It also has the advantage of pointing directly at where the CB will go.

pj
chgo

P.S. I drew this on a screen capture from VP4, which models the CB's path exactly as you describe.

View attachment 14346

There is a much easier way to estimate it. Look at your diagram. Look at the point where your final cb path hits the rail. Just take that back to the center of the ob. Notice it hits the ob right where the line from the center of the cb goes.

All you have to do is find your shot line, get your aim, and then look at where the center of the cb line comes out the back of the ob. Take that point as the center of the ob and see where it goes. That is where the cb will go.

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
isnt the peace sign easier??

There is a much easier way to estimate it. Look at your diagram. Look at the point where your final cb path hits the rail. Just take that back to the center of the ob. Notice it hits the ob right where the line from the center of the cb goes.

All you have to do is find your shot line, get your aim, and then look at where the center of the cb line comes out the back of the ob. Take that point as the center of the ob and see where it goes. That is where the cb will go.
I'm familiar with both the "peace sign" technique and the "backside of OB aimpoint" - but they work approximately for limited ranges of cut angles. This method works accurately for all cut angles.

EDIT: I agree that both those methods are much easier than this at the table - this would have to be simplified a lot to be an improvement on those.

pj
chgo

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#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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isnt the peace sign easier??
How accurately can you make a peace sign? Can you adjust it for the different outbound angles as fullness varies from 1/4- to 3/4 full? Can you predict which side of which ball in a cluster you're going to hit after 2 feet of travel (from the OB to the cluster) with a 2/3-full hit?

Yes, the peace sign is much easier, and much less accurate.