White dots in the epoxy finish

SSDiver2112

SSDiver2112

Escott Cues
I have been having problems with white dots in the epoxy finish as I sand it down to prepare for the top coat. I am using Max CLR. I have salvaged some by sanding it past them. Sometimes there was still enough thickness left to continue. I have also had to sand back to the wood on a few and start all over.

Very frustrated and not sure how to prevent this.

I prepare about 9g epoxy and have been putting it in a mini vacuum chamber I made to try to reduce the micro bubbles. I let it sit in there for at least five minutes then apply to the cue.

If I can get back to it in 4-5 hours I will apply a new coat while not fully hardened. If it has hardened all the way (which has been the majority of the time) I sand and then wipe down before applying the next coat.

After it sits at least a week I start sanding down for the top coat.

IMG_8098.jpeg
 
I have the same problem sometimes because I haven't set up a separate area/room for finishing yet.
Pretty sure it's dust in the air that settles while the finish is setting up. There's more fine dust in the air than you think. I built a cardboard box to put over my finishing station and that helps.
 
Hard Knock Cues said:
I have the same problem sometimes because I haven't set up a separate area/room for finishing yet.
Pretty sure it's dust in the air that settles while the finish is setting up. There's more fine dust in the air than you think. I built a cardboard box to put over my finishing station and that helps.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I already put a box over it now. It seems more like micro bubbles that when opened by sanding, fills with the sanding dust.
 
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SSDiver2112 said:
I have been having problems with white dots in the epoxy finish as I sand it down to prepare for the top coat. I am using Max CLR. I have salvaged some by sanding it past them. Sometimes there was still enough thickness left to continue. I have also had to sand back to the wood on a few and start all over.

Very frustrated and not sure how to prevent this.

I prepare about 9g epoxy and have been putting it in a mini vacuum chamber I made to try to reduce the micro bubbles. I let it sit in there for at least five minutes then apply to the cue.

If I can get back to it in 4-5 hours I will apply a new coat while not fully hardened. If it has hardened all the way (which has been the majority of the time) I sand and then wipe down before applying the next coat.

After it sits at least a week I start sanding down for the top coat.

View attachment 750058
Click to expand...
A few things I know of can cause it. One is little bubbles trapped from mixing. This is solved by passing a torch over the cue really fast after the finish has been on the cue a few minutes. Solvent pop is another cause where the solvent separates from the finish into its own little dots. Another cause is the wood breathing or gassing out as some call it into the finish. A thin seal coat over the wood and let completely dry is a must before putting flow out coats of epoxy on. The torch or heat gun is the only way I could get clear epoxy finish and I have been doing them since the 90s. Not sealing with the thin seal coat caused me much grief. I even took a few month break from building cues because of those white dots back in the 90s.
 
cueman said:
A few things I know of can cause it. One is little bubbles trapped from mixing. This is solved by passing a torch over the cue really fast after the finish has been on the cue a few minutes. Solvent pop is another cause where the solvent separates from the finish into its own little dots. Another cause is the wood breathing or gassing out as some call it into the finish. A thin seal coat over the wood and let completely dry is a must before putting flow out coats of epoxy on. The torch or heat gun is the only way I could get clear epoxy finish and I have been doing them since the 90s. Not sealing with the thin seal coat caused me much grief. I even took a few month break from building cues because of those white dots back in the 90s.
Click to expand...
Thanks Chris,
The first coat I have been putting on with a glove to press the epoxy into the grain and then smooth it with a card. I will try the torch. Do you just do one pass or multiple passes? Maybe I should look into a heat gun. Seems like I could have more control.
 
cueman said:
A few things I know of can cause it. One is little bubbles trapped from mixing. This is solved by passing a torch over the cue really fast after the finish has been on the cue a few minutes. Solvent pop is another cause where the solvent separates from the finish into its own little dots. Another cause is the wood breathing or gassing out as some call it into the finish. A thin seal coat over the wood and let completely dry is a must before putting flow out coats of epoxy on. The torch or heat gun is the only way I could get clear epoxy finish and I have been doing them since the 90s. Not sealing with the thin seal coat caused me much grief. I even took a few month break from building cues because of those white dots back in the 90s.
Click to expand...
OK another new tool...
Is there a recommended temperature setting to use on the heat gun?
 
SSDiver2112 said:
OK another new tool...
Is there a recommended temperature setting to use on the heat gun?
Click to expand...
I use the torch like Chris describes. I have one with a trigger type ignitor, so it's a quick on and off. Better than a heat gun Which Takes time to heat up. Blows stuff around and takes time to cool down, so it could become more dangerous.
 
Some of it may also be when you are applying the epoxy.
After mixing your resin with the hardener allow it to sit and gas off for a short period of time before applying it to the cue.
You also never want to apply the epoxy in a warm shop and then quit for the day and allow the shop or area you have applied the epoxy to get cooler as the epoxy dries. You want to go in the opposite direction where you start in a cooler atmosphere and work and allow the epoxy to dry into a warmer air space.
The torch trick is ok but generally a disaster waiting to happen if not done correctly.

Your picture is definitely one of some type of off gassing or trapped air bubbles in the epoxy that do not escape before it flashes over causing new bad words and/or phases to introduced to anyone else in the shop area or sometimes just the general neighborhood.
99% of the time you end up going back to wood and starting all over. It's a sucky lesson to learn but most of us have been there.
 
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BarenbruggeCues said:
Some of it may also be when you are applying the epoxy.
After mixing your resin with the hardener allow it to sit and gas off for a short period of time before applying it to the cue.
You also never want to apply the epoxy in a warm shop and then quit for the day and allow the shop or area you have applied the epoxy to get cooler as the epoxy dries. You want to go in the opposite direction where you start in a cooler atmosphere and work and allow the epoxy to dry into a warmer air space.
The torch trick is ok but generally a disaster waiting to happen if not done correctly.

Your picture is definitely one of some type of off gassing or trapped air bubbles in the epoxy that do not escape before it flashes over causing new bad words and/or phases to introduced to anyone else in the shop area or sometimes just the general neighborhood.
99% of the time you end up going back to wood and starting all over. It's a sucky lesson to learn but most of us have been there.
Click to expand...
I usually let it sit for a few minutes and then it is in the vacuum at least five minutes before applying.

The shop is climate controlled.

The bad words have been numerous.
 
The propane torch has worked well for me. I clean the lathe, sweep and vacuum, and run the air filtration system for several hours, apply the epoxy and leave shop. Don't even open the door to the shop for at least 4 hours.
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
Some of it may also be when you are applying the epoxy.
After mixing your resin with the hardener allow it to sit and gas off for a short period of time before applying it to the cue.
You also never want to apply the epoxy in a warm shop and then quit for the day and allow the shop or area you have applied the epoxy to get cooler as the epoxy dries. You want to go in the opposite direction where you start in a cooler atmosphere and work and allow the epoxy to dry into a warmer air space.
The torch trick is ok but generally a disaster waiting to happen if not done correctly.

Your picture is definitely one of some type of off gassing or trapped air bubbles in the epoxy that do not escape before it flashes over causing new bad words and/or phases to introduced to anyone else in the shop area or sometimes just the general neighborhood.
99% of the time you end up going back to wood and starting all over. It's a sucky lesson to learn but most of us have been there.
Click to expand...
I would say the opposite: You don't want to apply epoxy if the cue and shop are going to warm. As the cue warms the air in the wood expands and outgassed bubbles appear in the epoxy. Often there will be a few regions where this is especially pronounced. I've always assumed that was a result of small air pockets. I first noticed this after putting a heat lamp over a revolving, resined cue, on a cool day. I would say the best method is to maintain the cue and shop temperature stable, say at 75* if possible. If you can't do that, I'd warm the cue first. and let it do its outgassing for a while, then apply resin and let it cool. There will be no outgassing from a cooling cue.
 
shankster8 said:
I would say the opposite: You don't want to apply epoxy if the cue and shop are going to warm. As the cue warms the air in the wood expands and outgassed bubbles appear in the epoxy. Often there will be a few regions where this is especially pronounced. I've always assumed that was a result of small air pockets. I first noticed this after putting a heat lamp over a revolving, resined cue, on a cool day. I would say the best method is to maintain the cue and shop temperature stable, say at 75* if possible. If you can't do that, I'd warm the cue first. and let it do its outgassing for a while, then apply resin and let it cool. There will be no outgassing from a cooling cue.
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Makes some sense,
but 75* ?
I don't keep my house at 75*😨
 
shankster8 said:
I would say the opposite: You don't want to apply epoxy if the cue and shop are going to warm. As the cue warms the air in the wood expands and outgassed bubbles appear in the epoxy. Often there will be a few regions where this is especially pronounced. I've always assumed that was a result of small air pockets. I first noticed this after putting a heat lamp over a revolving, resined cue, on a cool day. I would say the best method is to maintain the cue and shop temperature stable, say at 75* if possible. If you can't do that, I'd warm the cue first. and let it do its outgassing for a while, then apply resin and let it cool. There will be no outgassing from a cooling cue.
Click to expand...
You're correct...I think I got it backwards.
But yes...I don't worry anymore because I'm working in a complete climate controlled area.
 
Try a small bottle of BSI Finish Cure.
1 to 1 mix.
Heat mix before stirring for some 10 seconds with a hair dryer . Not heat gun as it gets really hot.
I stick the sticks inside my heat cabinet at around 85* for a few minutes.
Let it cool down a bit but still warm to the touch.
Apply the warmed mix with a playing card then hit it with your gloved index finger pushing end to end for penetration.
I've never used blow torch.
I am not fond of Max products. Sorry.
 
SSDiver2112 said:
I have been having problems with white dots in the epoxy finish as I sand it down to prepare for the top coat. I am using Max CLR. I have salvaged some by sanding it past them. Sometimes there was still enough thickness left to continue. I have also had to sand back to the wood on a few and start all over.

Very frustrated and not sure how to prevent this.

I prepare about 9g epoxy and have been putting it in a mini vacuum chamber I made to try to reduce the micro bubbles. I let it sit in there for at least five minutes then apply to the cue.

If I can get back to it in 4-5 hours I will apply a new coat while not fully hardened. If it has hardened all the way (which has been the majority of the time) I sand and then wipe down before applying the next coat.

After it sits at least a week I start sanding down for the top coat.

View attachment 750058
Click to expand...
You might want to make sure you're mixing the epoxy correctly.
Only time I get bubbles is when I fuzz up the mix. Stir to much air into it. Just a thot.🤷‍♂️
 
Renegade_56 said:
If it's gassing, which I think it is, then the sealing job was inferior before finishing.
Click to expand...

I would disagree. They appear in the upper layers too, so the wood cannot be off gassing through multiple layers of epoxy. It also appears above phenolic which does not off gas.
 
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