Whiteball - damage?

[genesis]

Sean, no doubt a screw, springing of table, Shooting at the cueball and so on can cause series damage to them, but that is not what i want to demonstrate. Only with allowed treatment and allowed equipment you can cause damage to youre equipment (cueball), please read the whole thread.

Ty and kind regards

PS: its is not about the hardness of the Ferule/ Tip.

 

[sfleinen]

Only sharing a very specific example

Sean, no doubt a screw, springing of table, Shooting at the cueball and so on can cause series damage to them, but that is not what i want to demonstrate. Only with allowed treatment and allowed equipment you can cause damage to youre equipment (cueball), please read the whole thread.

Ty and kind regards

genesis:

I *did* read the whole thread, but you never mentioned what make/model of table you were using, hence why I wanted to share my experience with drop-pocket Gold Crown III tables.

I *do* understand your point as well. That is, if you know for a fact that your Phenolic tip is causing this (please re-read my post, and you'll see that I acknowledge that certain Phenolics can cause this), your point is that "allowed equipment" [Phenolic tips] is damaging other "allowed equipment" [Saluc's ball products] and you want the vendor [Saluc] to explain themselves for this.

But if you are already in off/on conversations with the vendor [Saluc], why are you posting here? I'm not sure Saluc is reading this message board, unless you are trying to get a status read from other readers of this forum to see if they've experienced the same cue-ball damage. If so, and you get consensus from other readers that they've seen this damage, what's going to be your next step?

Honestly trying to be helpful,
-Sean

 

[genesis]

;-)

Well see what happened. This state is quite disappointing.
So maybe phenolics ( generic Term for all kinds of - all in one -apf and so on) can be banned?!

The rule says:

"The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball"

But no one pays tribute to that. So build balls that can avoid those damage or bann the Tip/Ferules.

_Sean, sorry if you feel attacked, wasnt my intension.

Maybe its better to include the poll in this thread?

 

[Black-Balled]

I think Sean's point is, "If ...you get consensus from other readers that they've seen this damage, what's going to be your next step?".

Sounds like you are trying to blame Saluc for its failure to have a product that withstands common use (phenolic). I think Saluc is no more to blame than the phenolic sellers.

I agree 100% that the CB damage can be and often is attributed to breaking, but what difference to proving the theory make?

Further- I am VERY disappointed DURAMITH hasn't solved the cracking. Calling it durty-myth from here forward.

 

[genesis]

so one last bump before taking action to saluc next week, please tell me what you think if you did not .
Ty

regards

 

[JB Cases]

The rule (equipment specification, actually) was written wrong. It should have set a particular maximum hardness. I suppose whoever wrote the specification either was trying to let the phenolic tip people still sell their product or didn't understand what he was doing.

In the absence of any sort of governing body willing to test and certify tips then how is this possible to enforce? I doubt highly that people are going to running around with durometers testing the hardness of tips.

The rule, as it's written is fine, nothing should contact the cueball which damages it. However that rule does not take into account for the possibility that a tip does not damage one type of ball construction but does damage to another.

Essentially then you are putting all the power into the hands of the ball makers to dictate what sorts of tips are allowed to be used because the ball maker then can change their formulas at will without notice to the public.

I believe that the IPT did not allow phenolic tips in their tournaments.

They did not because of the personal bias of Deno Andrews and Mike Sigel about them, not because of any issues with damage to cueballs.

If in fact the OP is correct and phenolic tips on break sticks damage the cue ball, it is time to revise the equipment specifications and enforce them.

Agreed. And perhaps it is also time to have some sort of standard for balls as well.

So far as I know, the nine ball was never racked on the spot in an official championship competition.

The nine ball has been racked on the spot in at least one US Open.

 

[JB Cases]

Please read the whole thread. Please...

There is so much work in it.
Yes it could come from the pockets , of table playing , wrong rotation of the sun, whatever ... BUT it definetly also comes from "Phenolic Tips, (All in one, phenolic, whatelse)" and there is a rule that is not allowed, NOBODY seems interrested in that.
Actually that is really really strange. A tip is in Lab of Saluc, i am waiting on that.

You will read, that i took a brand new ball, break 2 times and discover those half moon dents! No of table , to in pocket contact of the whiteball!

regards

I have read the whole thread. I have access to just about every type of phenolic used for tips.

The other day I tried my hardest to duplicate the cracks you show and I could only get one small one to appear on the ball I was using. This happened on a deliberate miscue using a G-10 tip.

At this time I do not believe that is is possible to cause this type of error on a cue ball with a direct hit using any of the phenolic or g-10 materials I have access to UNLESS the the cue ball is defective in some way.

I have tried to hit the balls as hard as I can - even using masse strokes to try and trap the cueball between the tip and slate.

From your thread it is clear that Aramith is aware of these cracks and knows that they are caused by nails or contact with other hard objects. They weren't aware that contact with phenolic tips can also cause these cracks. In my informal testing this appears to be something that is caused by miscues and that is not purely a problem of using phenolic tips. Most ferrules are made of some sort of composite.

Hopefully this will lead to some sort of better understanding of how these materials are interacting.

 

[AuntyDan]

From your thread it is clear that Aramith is aware of these cracks and knows that they are caused by nails or contact with other hard objects. They weren't aware that contact with phenolic tips can also cause these cracks. In my informal testing this appears to be something that is caused by miscues and that is not purely a problem of using phenolic tips.

No, I don't think it is nails in the pockets for the following reasons:

1) The cue ball goes in pockets far less often than the object balls, and when it does it is usually going at a medium or slow speed. Therefore if the damage is occurring in the pocket the object balls should be getting far more damaged than the cue balls.

2) I can't recall ever seeing these "half-moon" marks on object balls, although I have seen plenty of small, irregular chip marks which can only be from pocket nail heads. I even have a Super Pro 8-ball with a hexagonal chip mark that can only have been caused by the head of a GC pocket machine bolt. (I guess either it wasn't bedded all the way in or the rubber of the pocket surrounding it had worn down around it.)

I can't say for certain it is phenolic tips, but that seems the most likely in combination with either a change in Saluc manufacturing process and/or materials and/or quality control. This is a problem which, in my direct experience, affects their newer cue balls far more than their older ones. (I can show you a nearly 10-year old Red Circle that has very few of these marks and a 2-year old Pro Cup that has dozens of them.)

 

[JesPiddlin]

Here is my opinion on the matter.

Let's use a similar event with different objects. Take 2 full size, identically built cars. Park one car. Speed the other car up to ... let's say 60 mph. Ram it into the parked car.

Which car is going to receive the most damage? The parked car, of course. Is it because the moving car is harder than the parked car? No. We set the whole thing up, using identically built cars. That means they are of the same hardness. So, why would the parked car take on more damage in most cases? Does anyone know the mathematical value of force, when applied to a stationary object? If so, now would be a good time to share it. (I might not have said that correctly, but I'm sure someone has a clue what I am asking for.)

Now. Who hits the ball softly to break the rack? Nobody I know. They use force to shove the cue into the cue ball and cause it to move forward at a high rate of speed, using it's momentum to move the many balls at the other end of the table.

Also, many things actually become harder on impact. So, a softer object can actually be harder on impact. Consider the hardness of an airbag being placed against your skin with air in it, versus an airbag being exploded into your face. Which is going to be harder? Does the force of impact make a difference in the hardness? You bet it does!

I totally believe it is miscues and/or momentum power coupled with tip size that cause these indentions, in most cases.

Years ago, long before I ever heard of phenolic, a pool hall we played in had regular mudballs, as always. After a certain amount of use, they had to be replaced, due to chips and dings, dents and flat spots which made the ball practically unusable. This was in the early 1980's. I remember a day-long discussion over the shape of the 1 ball, which most folks tend to put at the front of a rack. It had flat spots on it, which caused it to roll funny. The owner of the small restaurant/pool hall said he had to buy more 1 balls than any other numbered ball. Why? The impact of the cue ball caused flat spots on the 1 ball, after so many direct hits.

A cue tip is smaller than the ball and therefore, instead of just flattening part of the ball, when it gets to the edge... ESPECIALLY if the hit is a miscue, the edge of the tip could possibly indent the cue ball, I would think.

As for what is harder... phenolic or a cue ball... You need to add momentum and smaller size to your equation.

If you don't like what the phenolic tip is doing to your cue ball, the fix is quite simple. Don't allow phenolic tips to be used on it. A cue ball is not cheap, but there is no reason to make a year-long issue of it. Just buy another cue ball and get rid of the phenolic tips.

 

[JB Cases]

No, I don't think it is nails in the pockets for the following reasons:

1) The cue ball goes in pockets far less often than the object balls, and when it does it is usually going at a medium or slow speed. Therefore if the damage is occurring in the pocket the object balls should be getting far more damaged than the cue balls.

2) I can't recall ever seeing these "half-moon" marks on object balls, although I have seen plenty of small, irregular chip marks which can only be from pocket nail heads. I even have a Super Pro 8-ball with a hexagonal chip mark that can only have been caused by the head of a GC pocket machine bolt. (I guess either it wasn't bedded all the way in or the rubber of the pocket surrounding it had worn down around it.)

I can't say for certain it is phenolic tips, but that seems the most likely in combination with either a change in Saluc manufacturing process and/or materials and/or quality control. This is a problem which, in my direct experience, affects their newer cue balls far more than their older ones. (I can show you a nearly 10-year old Red Circle that has very few of these marks and a 2-year old Pro Cup that has dozens of them.)

I was only commenting on one of the emails by Saluc that states that they are able to duplicate the "comma" cracks by having the balls hit nails and therefore believe that the cracks in the customer's submitted ball come from that source.

I can tell you that no one beats up balls with phenolic more than I did in the years that we did in the years I did Bunjee Jumper and Fury Jump Break sales exhibitions. Sometimes we would have four people at a time practicing jump shots on our table.

I swear to all of you that I cleaned the balls all the time and at no time did I see these cracks on the cueballs and object balls. I am certain that Diamond and Gary Benson would have been up my ass about buying new sets of balls if we had damaged the Aramith balls they supplied us.

Now, I have not done a serious jump cue booth in at least three years. In that time Aramith has come out with a cue ball that gets damaged and dirty quite easily. All I am saying is that I believe the composition of some of the current balls makes them easier to damage than other batches from the past. Which is kind of a catch-22 because no brand-name jump cue maker has ever made a cue that they know full well harms the balls it strikes. They do too many tests and demonstrations to be able to get away with that for long.

So now we have a situation where the people manufacturing cue tips are at the mercy of the people manufacturing balls.

Because the cue tip makers (i.e. those who use tips other than leather) have complied with the rules and built tips that work and do not harm the balls and along comes a ball maker who changes the formula (speculation on my part) and suddenly the cue tips can damage the balls.

Now there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of players out there who have cues with "phenolic" tips on them. I don't know what the solution is but it will be good for cue repair people in the short term.

 

[JB Cases]

Here is my opinion on the matter.

Let's use a similar event with different objects. Take 2 full size, identically built cars. Park one car. Speed the other car up to ... let's say 60 mph. Ram it into the parked car.

Which car is going to receive the most damage? The parked car, of course. Is it because the moving car is harder than the parked car? No. We set the whole thing up, using identically built cars. That means they are of the same hardness. So, why would the parked car take on more damage in most cases? Does anyone know the mathematical value of force, when applied to a stationary object? If so, now would be a good time to share it. (I might not have said that correctly, but I'm sure someone has a clue what I am asking for.)

I can agree with this premise. Now let me add to it. If we agree that a moving object does more damage what do you think happens when that car hits say a container that has nine or fifteen identical cars in it. Which object will sustain more damage?

So if a cueball hits a rack of balls then it's conceivable that the impact from the solitary cueball traveling at 20mph and slamming into a mass that is 9 to 15x it's own weight would cause it some damage.

Most of you probably don't know this but I have been told by one of our ball makers that Super Aramith Pro Balls are rated as being able to withstand 50,000lbs of pressure per square inch without deforming. My ball maker contends than their balls can withstand 70,000lbs per square inch. Ok this is an applied pressure rating I understand as opposed to a striking force benchmark. But I have to think that an object which can withstand that much pressure has to be able to withstand a 20-25mph hit with a 13mm round tip without breaking.

Of course I could be entirely wrong in this supposition - could be that applied pressure and acute impact have nothing to do with each other.

Should have paid more attention in school.

 

[shooter50014]

for sure! if I was a cue repair man I would be liking the new ruling!!!!! cha ching

they will get to charge you for grinding down your tip and puting a leather on instead. how much do you think that will strum up buisness?

not me, not one penny! I am keeping my g10 I carry my own cue ball if they dont allow it!!



its got half moons and plays great! if ya cant join them, beat them. Ummm or something like that

 

[MitchAlsup]

;-)
The rule says:

"The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball"

Here, the problem is that a hard tip, properly chalked, can place a half-moon mar on the surface of the cue ball without a miscue.

I have a 20-hour old cue ball with such marks, never jumped, and I didn't use a break cue on it.

So, if by damage, you mean scuffs or scars or scratches on the surface, you are in for problematic times in enforcing the rules.

 

[genesis]

<< This is the second break on a 2 Minute old, Brand new Duramit Ball. >>


<< And this is what happens. >>

<< This is my Ferule >>

100% no other impacts or whatever... !

 

[shooter50014]

last night I was at a bar that only had the valley white ball

I was straight up bashing it and not one mark on it. My breaks were up to 26 MPH but most are in the 22-23 range. From my breaking I have only found that the red circle or like cueballs are showing the marks.
Amyone else notice this?

 

[genesis]

last night I was at a bar that only had the valley white ball

I was straight up bashing it and not one mark on it. My breaks were up to 26 MPH but most are in the 22-23 range. From my breaking I have only found that the red circle or like cueballs are showing the marks.
Amyone else notice this?

Yes, you are right in my opinion, but in the poll are also some china / cheap balls affected. But less to aramith & co.

And the Problem is not the speed of your break itself, mosty it is a >50% off center hit (Not a scratch- near scratch) shown in my break 2 posts above.

 

[JB Cases]

Seems to me that teh tip needs to be rounded more. It looks like you are hitting the ROUND ball with a fairly flat object. And I can certainly see where that can cause these cracks in that shape.

Also I tend to think that the new Aramiths are part of the problem. I am having ten cue balls made which will all be numbered using heat transfer sublimation. Then each cue ball will be tested methodically against various materials.

These are not Aramith balls but they are made from Kobe Resins from Japan (some of the best resins in the world) and rated at 70,000 lbs per square inch before deforming. We will see if they can hold up against the comma cracks.

 

[genesis]

So guys, after a few weeks...

I am a bit proud of what happened. aprox 2 years ago most players did not noticed that Phen & co ferules could damage the balls. So i started this and other threads. Many voices said, just give up it is easier to buy frequently new balls ;-). Now it seems that most of the unions going to ban the Phenolics.
Bob Jewett i hope that this thread has really open the minds for someones ;-)

Thanks to all who supports me and said " go on, it is a good thing what can happen"
especially Mr Gonzales from Saluc, i never called a man who speaks so much without saying anything with such consistent calm. ;-) Thanks for the politeness.

regards
Michael Hahnfeld
(Fürth, germany)

 

[conetip]

genesis, I have used a phenolic tip for breaking for quite some time and have never noticed any damage to my cue ball. But I do not break anywhere near as hard as alot do. I break enough to make 4 or so balls hit the rail. Now I am using a leather tip for breaking because of the impending rule changes. The leather does not hit as hard as the phenolic, but my breaks are no worse for it either. 4 balls still make a rail after the break.
It was interesting reading the thread and seeing the results that you had experienced.
Neil

 

[Shaft]

Does Saluc ever answer e-mail?

Good luck getting an answer from Saluc on this or any other question!

I have written them several times and have never been answered or even acknowledged. (Why do they bother putting up an e-mail address?)

If they had any competition they would lose my business, meager though it is.