Who Did What First?

Hey John,

I get it.

Your cases and leather work are awesome and I can see your point about how what you do to create your designs requires a big effort intellectually. It is like the fashion industry coming out with a new line and the competition is like vultures stealing your new creative work to sell to KMART.

My point and my disagreement with Mia is we are talking about rings that are over 40 years old and are in my mind very classic like Gus and Bushka rings. There are no statutes or rules of the road for cue makers so in the end one must satisfy their own likes concerning rings. Yeah, I could be clever and do a stitch ring with some dash or dot pattern that is a little different than the pack. I don't see that as some huge creative effort. I see a lot of CMs make rings that look like each other's and complain about the fact that someone is copying someone else's ring like it is some big creative effort. It's not, it's just a adjustment of an indexing head, a slot size pattern and how thick you cut them off. Not heady at all but very elementary stuff. Now Dave Barenbrugge's rings for example are a horse of a different color for sure, IMO.

I am sure that forty years from now you would not be upset to see a feature of your creative work in play. I would see that as a big compliment to your contribution to the art of Case Making.

JMO,

Rick

I am not speaking to the debate about particular elements that you or anyone else has done. There isn't a cue maker alive who hasn't done something that some cue maker before him or her hasn't done. It's simply not possible at this point to make a cue without using techniques pioneered by someone else. And speaking from a purely decorative perspective just about every living cue maker has made cues with decorative elements from their predecessors.

And ANY act of modification no matter how small is a creative act. So it's not fair to assign levels or creativity and say that one result is more creative than another. That's belittling and divisive. My point was that copying happens, on all levels, and everyone does or has done it to varying degrees.

Once in a while someone does come up with a new technique that is a game changer though. That's the whole reason we have the term game changer. Because it changes the WHOLE game forcing all the players to adopt the new technique and begin to work on using that technique and innovate off of it.

As people we are more psychologically driven by praise than money. Most of us. We want recognition for our work, we want positive feedback, we want to feel successful without having to look at our bank account to prove it to ourselves. Of course making good money is a nice bonus but the real driver for creativity is recognition. When recognition is taken away it's painful. And even worse is when the creative act is belittled as if it has no value. No you not only don't get praise but you get criticism.

I personally don't understand the whole problem with copying in general. I know how it makes me feel to be copied as I outlined above but in general we learn by copying. We are told to copy all through school by being shown examples of how it's done right, whatever the school board thinks is right. We are told in numerous books to copy successful people, we are told to study others, we are constantly barraged with biographies of famous people and encouraged to be like them. We love to quote others and use their thoughts as substitutes for our own. Every craftsman cuts their teeth making "copies" because that's how you learn. You see a box then you try to build a box, that's it.

I don't see a need anymore to write long rants defending my decision to use elements from other case maker's work. Sorry but we live in a world where people share ideas simply by the act of taking an idea and making it real. If they don't want to share then they should build stuff that no one ever gets to see. Otherwise the idea made real and presented to the world becomes the world's to exploit. Now of course society has made laws to grant protection for some ideas made into real things and of course the application of those laws is for lawyers and judges to deal with. But in a connected world ideas are not esoteric, they are laid bare for all to work with and use.

I personally have seen millions of dollars in revenue lost to outright almost 1/1 copying of my designs when I owned Instroke. Most of the Instroke production designs were created by me over a four day binge period where I stayed up all night sketching out the cases while working with the factory during the days. That became the genesis of the Instroke cases you see on the market today and they have remained relatively unchanged since 1994 with the exception of a few modifications I did to make them good for modern cues.

People here talk about the copying of a ring or an element but I have had to deal with container loads of knockoffs hitting the market and being sold two booths down. Not only were my designs taken but they even took my descriptions, the paragraphs I wrote explaining the benefits and even in a few cases used my images to advertise their knockoffs. I have been through it on both ends. No less than Joe Porper knocked off my signature design element, the scallops on the Cowboy model and made some strange hybrid model and then that was knocked off by others. When that happened I felt angry and elated at the same time.

I mean damn it, Joe Porper was a big deal in cue cases, no stranger himself to being knocked off, why did he need to copy my centerpiece product? But on the other hand check it out, I must have arrived if the great Joe Porper thought I made something worth copying!!!

So the bottom line is that this big world with it's 7 billion people is a huge fertile melting pot of ideas. Once someone adds their idea to the stew then they don't get to take it back. If then someone else takes it and runs with it then they run, that's simply called life.

And honestly, this life is way too short to waste it talking about whether or not it's "ok" to use certain rings. It is ok. (depending on the relevant laws of course.)

You have the capability to create objects then create them. Let other people argue the merits and deal with the substance. Put the rings on good solid products and worry about what your customer thinks about what they are trading their money for. That's the praise that matters most. Whether your creativity only extends as far as parroting other people's designs or goes beyond to improvising on them is up to you but you belong to the class of people who makes tangible things and because of that you get to decide what you will and won't make.
 
Im the guilty party that owns the rosewood / on rosewood szam tribute that I commissioned Travis to do .

It's not exact, as the original has a steel joint.

I promise if I win the lottery and I can afford to buy the real deal we'll all get together bandsaw the bastard cue and have a bon fire and a few beers.

Until then I think its a pretty great cue and Travis's execution was perfect as usual.

As an aside I would never again ever have a cue commissioned to mimick an original.

Turncoat........lol. :)
 
Don't blame the cuemakers!

First off,a cuemaker is not a production line.He or she is like anybody
else,trying to pay the bills.Not all but most ''copies''are at the request
of the costumer.
Now,the cuemaker could refuse the order due to this copying thing
but the cuemaker is just the builder who has to stay un-bias and work
real hard to build a client line and get his work out there.
When I've seen a copy,I don't care about the design but look at
how well the point work is and the finish and just the build in general.
The onus should fall on the consumer who keeps this type of market
alive and striving well.In my opinion,blaming the builder has no merit.
 

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I am still looking for answers to my questions in my original post from all the cue experts on here. :)


if someone knocks off a cue and sells it under false pretenses or tried to confuse a person who dont know much about cues, thats a problem.

If its a tribute and represented or labled as such its cool, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" or something close to that...
 
if someone knocks off a cue and sells it under false pretenses or tried to confuse a person who dont know much about cues, thats a problem.

If its a tribute and represented or labled as such its cool, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" or something close to that...

I sent Classiccues pictures of an original Paradise as he said he was interested in it. As soon as I sent all the pics he hasn't returned any emails so what can be said about that. I imagine in the near future there'll
be a "tribute" or an "original" for sale. I think I'll just post pics of it
and everyone can copy it to their hearts desire. The man said he was interested in it but it was just to get pics to copy/tribute I imagine..
Canwin
 
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I sent Classiccues pictures of an original Paradise as he said he was interested in it. As soon as I sent all the pics he hasn't returned any emails so what can be said about that. I imagine in the near future there'll
be a "tribute" or an "original" for sale. I think I'll just post all the pics of it
and everyone can copy it to their hearts desire. The man said he was interested in it but it was just to get pics to copy/tribute I imagine..
Canwin

First off, I don't need your pics to do a tribute. I have more than 8 megs of pics of cues that I could use if the mood suited me and all of them nicer than your cue. The reason you haven't heard back from me is I have a partner and we are discussing it. But quite frankly you have high numbers even for retail so any offer we decide to make will probably not be accepted.

JV (---- Needs pics of cues to copy...lol Hey how about pics of cues to see WTF your selling, isn't that a novel concept.
 
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Please post some pics so I can have more tributes made. :grin:

P.S. I love my Tad tribute, plays nice. :wink:
 
First off, I don't need your pics to do a tribute. I have more than 8 megs of pics of cues that I could use if the mood suited me and all of them nicer than your cue. The reason you haven't heard back from me is I have a partner and we are discussing it. But quite frankly you have high numbers even for retail so any offer we decide to make will probably not be accepted.

JV (---- Needs pics of cues to copy...lol Hey how about pics of cues to see WTF your selling, isn't that a novel concept.

JV,
In your future "business" endeavors, try communicating with someone when they ask you for a follow up of what your intentions might be after they send you what you have asked for. Second, never mentioned a price to you. It didn't get that far as once you obtained pics, I didn't get a response from you although I inquired several times so the "negotiations"
never got to the pricing stage...
I can see NOW how you got those more than 8 megs of cue pics from people. Yea, and I can see how all of your "tribute/originals" would be nicer that an original and look forward to seeing them for sale on your site or on ebay at some point in the near or not so near future.
Canwin
 
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classiccons.com.......

First off, I don't need your pics to do a tribute. I have more than 8 megs of pics of cues that I could use if the mood suited me and all of them nicer than your cue. The reason you haven't heard back from me is I have a partner and we are discussing it. But quite frankly you have high numbers even for retail so any offer we decide to make will probably not be accepted.

JV (---- Needs pics of cues to copy...lol Hey how about pics of cues to see WTF your selling, isn't that a novel concept.

You'll use the pictures for your endless stream of "restored" original cues. You'll use bits and pieces of the original, like say the butt bolt or the threadings or imitate the marbling, a copy of a design here and there, etc., but you'll do this when the mood suits you which suggests you've done it before. I don't know what you're talking about in your responce above but you seem to lie when you're covering your az..
As far as trying to put down a man's work who himself was a visionary in the world of making cue sticks, it just doesn't deserve comment.
alohaha
Canwin
 
Canwin I'll pretty much bet every cue I own JV could give two $hits about your pics. He has access to one of the best vintage cue collections on the planet at whim
 
Canwin I'll pretty much bet every cue I own JV could give two $hits about your pics. He has access to one of the best vintage cue collections on the planet at whim


I've said what I needed to say. I'll just apologise for the way I see things and do not wish to knock people and their motives. The only real thing is I have a big issue with "restored" cues from dead hall of fame cuemakers.
I have a couple and they're beautiful in their original condition and I love the look that they have as they age. I question the motives of those who "totally redo/refinish" every aspect of a collectable that shouldn't imo be tampered with as it arouses suspicion in me. There are people who have collected original parts of various dead cuemakers and have the expertise to construct them. Add the total refinish and what do you have?
I always notice that cues that are refinished don't seem to have the corresponding age appropriate shaft grains on the shafts. They look like modern shaft grain. So, I don't think it's unrealistic to think as I do. It only drives up the price of original untouched cues imo. and raises suspicion as to the authenticity of those cues that have been glossed over . . I don't care how many cues a man has either especially when they've been redone completely.
Canwin
 
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