Who Has Run 100?
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Rod said:
Yeah...running 5 racks of 9 ball isn't that easy. I believe Scott "The Shot" said he can put together a 5 pack almost anytime he wants to. Well..if that is the case he would be a top rated pro, because they don't do it with such frequency. Maybe in your home room or your pet table you can..but under professional conditions (new equipment/cloth/stress) it is an entire different story. I don't mean that to offend, just stating the facts.
Steve Lipsky said:
SteveL,
All excellent points - no disagreement here. I probably phrased things poorly in my first post (busy at work, I can type much faster than I can think).
I did not in any way mean to discount the significance of runs in practice (after the first 14 balls are subtracted
) - after all the vast majority of all the great high runs have been in practice or exhibitions, and the players should feel justifiably proud. My point "was/should have been" that the equipment and situation should be factored in (I should NOT have said that runs in practice shouldn't count, they should just be qualified). My apologies.Speaking as someone who immensely enjoys the pressure of competition, I do definitely give special regard to runs in competition and on tight equipment. I mentioned to John Schmidt that I had seen his magnificent run of 112 at a crucial point in his marathon DCC match with A. Pagulayan. He replied that on loose equipment he is a threat to run 400 anytime he's at the table, and that he was much more proud of the 112 run on moderately tough equipment in a brutally tough big money match than a 400 on loose equipment in practice. (My guess is that he's not exactly ashamed of the 400 runs in practice though)
I have also noted that there is definitely a dichotomy among accomplished players in regard to practice vs. competition. I'm sure there are many who, as you describe, focus better with something on the line than they do in practice. There are others who may perform better without the withering pressure of high stakes or tough competition. I guess there is a third type who tries to give maximum effort EVERY stroke at the table - whether it is practice, fun, or competition. In a session with a mutual professional acquaintance I was offered the choice of "friendly, focused practice" or a match. I said I would like just a friendly practice match - spot me 80 balls to 150. This professional (a former #1 in the world) said, "well if we are keeping score then even though you are my friend, I'm going to have to rip your heart out." Even with no stakes the "friendly" match involved maximum concentration, I felt like a deer in the headlights. A different mutual acquaintance said that he never reached his maximum potential as a player until he came off the road and signed off "stalling" forever. Once he started giving his maximum effort on every shot - no matter the situation, competition or practice - he achieved his highest level of play by far. Having said all of that (repeated all that for the frequent readers) I would admit that giving your maximum concentration in practice is TOUGH, but if a player has limited time to advance their skills it is the best way to achieve their goals.
I also TOTALLY agree with the observation about missed balls being more common in high level play than ending the inning with a safety (with one extremely notable exception). I have to run now, but I will relate later some of the philosophy on conservative vs wide-open play espoused by some of the degenerate pool gamblers that hung around with Willie Mosconi during his KC years; and on the differences that equipment (cloth and ball materials) made to them in their development of their philosophy. Bye for now.
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drivermaker
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Matt_24 said:
I think something else happens when running 5 racks or more of 9 ball as opposed to 100 or more in straight.
When you run 5 racks of 9-ball, LESS SKILLS are used to do it than when you're not on a roll playing someone normally.
What I mean is, the break shot IS the biggest factor in multiple racks being run. You've found the sweetspot on the table...your timing is just right...you're hitting them at the right speed and you have some semblance of CB control, AND balls are dropping.
But you are also ELIMINATING kick shots, push outs, banks, safties, and jump shots. It's pure offense in that you're shooting straight to pocket balls and get position. THAT'S IT!!
In order to run 100 balls, you have to be clicking on ALL cylinders. MORE SKILLS are drawn into play. You have to see and play patterns correctly, you still have to pocket balls without missing, you have to be able to get the perfect angle on shots to break up clusters or the rack, you have to twist or jump balls, you need to play caroms and combinations, you might need to bank, and you damn well better be playing pinpoint position as opposed to a zone or area. There isn't even a comparison in where more skills are utilized.
You can't play half assed pool in 14.1 at ANY point and get away with it in order to run 100 or more.
i think you a wrong drivermaker... "You can't play half assed pool in 14.1 at ANY point and get away with it in order to run 100 or more."....not true. in straight pool if you get out of line u can always shoot another ball or if u not stroking the ball good that day u can still run alot of balls cause u really dont require the big stroke. in 9ball if your stroke isnt workin u not gonna run alot racks. and when you talk about the break IMO there is plenty of skill when lookin for the sweet spot and adjusting to your opponent making his counter-adjustments when u do find that sweet spot. im not saying running 100 is easy, but dont think it is easier then running 5 or 6 racks in 9ball. 9ball has more factors involved. u cant shoot teh 5ball when u get bad on the 3ball. straight pool u get out of line and there is another ball to get u back in line. i've seen players run 80 balls and they are not very strong players. if u see someone run 5 racks in 9ball u can say they are pretty strong cant u?? im a weak straight pool player cause i dont play, but there are 100 ball runners who i'd play straight pool with for money but they would never get on the table with me in 9ball. now why would that be??drivermaker said:
drivermaker said:
I responded to the 8 to 10 racks, saying that would be a poor bet by (anyone) to run verses a good straight pool player going to 100. For the overwelming percentage of the pool playing population, your statement, no. But then the big percentage ain't gonna run 5 racks of nine ball either.
Sure many have done so but their not of the large percentage. In a sense you might consider them part of that but in reality the big percentage can't run three friggin balls.
You said 35 to 40 balls. Well "IF" you make a ball or two on the break that could be the number. Then "IF" you have a decent shot afterwards for 5 racks in a row. Then if they are spread well, not needing a break out. Then it will make running 5 racks fairly easy.
With 14-1 you have a choice of a lot more balls ( you can shoot any ball) to break out clusters. In 9 ball you start running out of options much faster. So yes, I consider them to be near equal at 5 racks verses 100 balls. Or like I said I might go as high as 6 racks.
The way I view this is match up a good 14-1 player against a good nine baller. The 9 baller has several runs of 5 racks, against the 14-1 player with several runs over 100. If you want to match up pro's, match a 9 ball player against a 14-1 player. Better yet ask a pro, I'd be supprised if the 9 ball player wants the bet. At 6 racks I really doubt anyone would take a shot It really doesn't have to be a gamble either, just out of curiousity.
Remember each get one try. If the 9 ball player comes up empty, the 14-1 player still shoots until they miss. If neither win then you start over. The 14-1 player gets in stroke and the poor 9 ball player is cold. LOL I think it's difficult to come up with a number so it's really not worth anymore time discussing what could happen, unless it happens. At that, trying it one time still doesn't give up an answer, only for that one time. I still believe what I think would happen.
Rod
Matt_24 said:
I agree with you here. Very seldom do you see even a 4 pack when pros are playing. If equipment is sloppy, it is more likely. I was at the Joss Turning Stone event and they played on Diamond pro cut's. Very few 2 and 3 packs, and I watched a lot of play.
drivermaker said:
D'maker,
Well thanks a freakin' lot for that observation, it makes me feel like crap (the truth stings like a bitch). I've only been playing seriously for 3 1/2 years and play almost no 9-ball, but my high run in 9-ball is a 5 pack (I think somewhere around 18 balls total!!!) - pretty lucky on a tough table, in a race to 5 for $100. My high run in 14.1 is just a pitiful 45 (though I only keep track playing in a hotly contested league, matches to 100, usually very tough equipment). That tells me all I really need to know about the relative difficulties of the 2 feats. No one on any equipment will EVER run a hundred in 14.1 as easy as I ran 5 racks of 9-ball.
If you will notice elsewhere in the forum, posters promoting "explode the pack", "explode the clusters", and "be bold and end your inning on a miss." These all are violations of the hallowed rules of straight pool; but, unfortunately on todays equipment, competing with players not steeped in straight pool tradition it becomes a very viable (perhaps even advisable) strategy. With slow cloth, tight pockets, and mud balls you would be well advised not to hit too hard (pocketing percentage would drop dramatically, and the spread wouldn't be much better). On fast cloth (especially 760) the pack just falls apart if you breathe on it, so you can get some tremendous yields with even a moderate power stroke - this strategy was competely untenable on the old equipment, but very viable now. Even Nick Varner said in an Accu-Stats video, "There won't be no soft-breakers winning any tournaments in this 14.1."
This increased yield on fast cloth does NOT mean to me that every shot should be hit like a blacksmith. The speed of the break shot and secondary cluster breaks should be whatever gets your cue ball to the ideal place to maximize your chances of getting a shot. Players like Danny D. or Grady M. that know how to do this would just eat up the "exploding pack" players (assuming equivalent ball pocketing skills).
As far as ending your inning on a miss... well, it seems like everyone does, playing pedal to the metal to make the big run. I wish people had seen Irving Crane play some straight pool. He was a master at taking what the table would give, and end with a good safety (prepared to roast you in the subsequent safety battle). The degenerate's at Allen's in KC say that this skill of Irvings was born of necessity - they thought NO ONE could ever outshoot Willie Mosconi, an offensive juggernaut, who would try almost any conceivable shot in any situation. However, a carefully crafted safety game 20-30 balls at a time could definitely beat him occasionally. SJM tells a story about Willie complaining about Irvings conservative play and abhorrence of ending on a miss, saying "Irving wouldn't try any shot his grandmother couldn't make." Maybe true, but Irving was one of the very, very few that ever beat Mosconi with any consistency in his prime (though never in a long match).
Maybe because our league is handicapped, the principle of ending on a safety has not died completely. When you spot someone 60 or 70 balls to 100 you sure as hell do NOT want to end any inning on a miss - it forces many of us to play a VERY conservative game. I wish some of you could watch straight pool the way Danny D. or Grady M. play it - it is a totally different game than most of us play. If any of the modern ball-pocketing-machine, 9-ball wizards played that kind of game they would be awesome.
I think 100 balls must be worth more than 5 racks of 9ball, probably around 7 or so. 7 times you have to position yourself well to be able to break the pack open. Still, you will have clusters to work with. There will also be a few long 9ball like shots to play. It is interesting how longer shots which you could make 9 times out of 10 playing 9ball suddenly become very tough at 14.1 
...must be a mental thing.
Once I made 4 pack and was very proud of that even though I got 2 early combo's. But my personal best of 52 ball run...well, I was just in heaven. And felt very exhausted too...
I think if I played more 14.1, I'd be much better at it. But that doesn't mean I'd run 100 balls or anywhere near that anytime soon.
...must be a mental thing.Once I made 4 pack and was very proud of that even though I got 2 early combo's. But my personal best of 52 ball run...well, I was just in heaven. And felt very exhausted too...
I think if I played more 14.1, I'd be much better at it. But that doesn't mean I'd run 100 balls or anywhere near that anytime soon.
WOW we got some world class players on this website. Scott Frasier can run a 5-pack basically at will. Scott I am going to sell my house and all of my posessions, and back you in a money game against Efren playing him even. You should drill him.