Who has the last word? customer or cuemaker

Canadian cue

Canadian cue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is a philosophical question for everybody, cuemakers and buyers. When building a custom cue who should have the last word as to how it should look? If you are the customer and you are having a cue built which reflects your ideas shouldn't you have the right to have it built to look exactly how you like it? What if your ideas go against the makers? If the cuemaker is going to put his name on it doesn't the work reflect his tastes and ideas of what looks good.
 
i would think the cuemaker should try to accomadate the customer as much as he feels comfortable doing. i would hope the customer picks makers along the line of what he is looking for. but the term custom would imply that it was made specifically for some ones specs or design. i wouldnt buy a ford if i wanted it to be like a chevy? :confused:
 
My 2 cents

A customer has the responsibilty to chose the right maker for his cue. The cuemaker is obligated to make the cue in his style that best represents what the cutomer wants. If it is Gawdawfull ugly don't build it, the customer can sell it but it will always have the makers name on it.

Andy
 
If I have something custom made, whether it's a boat, house, or cue, I want it the way I want it. I'm hiring a craftsman because I want better quality than I can do myself.

In the case of a cue, I expect the cuemaker to make it the way I want. This includes not only the cosmetics, but things like materials, points, inlays, weight, balance, shaft taper, joint, tip and ferrule. That's why I am going custom to start with. If I ask for something unreasonable, he has the opportunity to explain why it's unreasonable. (If I asked Blud to build me a cue with a Layani joint, he would tell me to call Thierry Layani) I can then decide to go elsewhere, or follow his advice. If he agrees to build it the way I say, I have the obligation to pay him for his work and take the cue. If he doesn't build it the way we agreed on, he can sell it to someone else, or fix it.

-CM
 
highsea said:
If I have something custom made, whether it's a boat, house, or cue, I want it the way I want it. I'm hiring a craftsman because I want better quality than I can do myself.

In the case of a cue, I expect the cuemaker to make it the way I want. This includes not only the cosmetics, but things like materials, points, inlays, weight, balance, shaft taper, joint, tip and ferrule. That's why I am going custom to start with. If I ask for something unreasonable, he has the opportunity to explain why it's unreasonable. (If I asked Blud to build me a cue with a Layani joint, he would tell me to call Thierry Layani) I can then decide to go elsewhere, or follow his advice. If he agrees to build it the way I say, I have the obligation to pay him for his work and take the cue. If he doesn't build it the way we agreed on, he can sell it to someone else, or fix it.

-CM
Click to expand...
Wait until someone calls you and wants an ebony with ivory points and ss collar and wants it not over 19 oz. :D
A friend of mine did that. After getting the cue, he x-rayed it.
The maker drilled the bottom of the cue.
 
Last edited:
JoeyInCali said:
Wait until someone calls you and wants an ebony with ivory points and ss collar and wants it at 18 oz. :D
He might even request a balance point and black linen wrap.
Click to expand...

If someone calls and asks for something that I dont think I can do or just dont want to do I politely decline the job. That might qualify as the last word.
However if someone is willing to pay the money to have something done his way then that also might be the last word.

All in all I think the man with the money wins the last word rights.
If he aint happy then I have failed in my job.
 
highsea said:
If I have something custom made, whether it's a boat, house, or cue, I want it the way I want it. I'm hiring a craftsman because I want better quality than I can do myself.

In the case of a cue, I expect the cuemaker to make it the way I want. This includes not only the cosmetics, but things like materials, points, inlays, weight, balance, shaft taper, joint, tip and ferrule. That's why I am going custom to start with. If I ask for something unreasonable, he has the opportunity to explain why it's unreasonable. (If I asked Blud to build me a cue with a Layani joint, he would tell me to call Thierry Layani) I can then decide to go elsewhere, or follow his advice. If he agrees to build it the way I say, I have the obligation to pay him for his work and take the cue. If he doesn't build it the way we agreed on, he can sell it to someone else, or fix it.

-CM
Click to expand...
This is just my opinion and it is everyone's prerogative to operate their business in what ever way they want. Having said that, many of these guys are more trouble then they are worth. As soon as they start with the " I like my shafts 13.385 millimeter and the weight 19.575 ounces you know you are in for a problem. Half these guys are wack-jobs. If a cue maker wants to enjoy building cues, he should get up in the morning make a nice cup of coffee and go into the shop without any of these goof balls on their back about their cue. If you build nice playing cues, of distinctive designs, priced right you will be able to sell most every cue you build. Other then some simple design input from the customers as to woods and maybe some inlay as well as the basic dimensions, build cues of your own design and you will enjoy every hour you spend building cues. It should remain your own creative endeavor.
I can promise you this, even if the cue is exactly as the customer requested but looks like crap, as long as he owns that ugly cue he will never admit it was his idea and all but slander you behind your back when talking about the cue. Sound pretty bitter don't I, I won't even go into the war stories.

To be totally honest, you are probably better off working through dealers and making a little less on a cue and never have to deal with many of these mental cases who call. A good playing cue, well made, nicely designed and stand behind your work and you don't owe the customer anything more.

One well known cue maker told me he was actually about to quit. He said he hated to answer the phone, it is either some one complaining how long it was taking to get their cue, or changing the order for the tenth time, or just asking ridiculous questions for half an hour with no intentions of ever buying anything. He said once he began just selling to dealers of high end cues his health even improved, he was actually getting sick and for the first time in years he was enjoying building cues again. Like I said, just my opinion, but I have to add also, any of these guys that come to you with their dopey designs will be forever coming up with new ideas before the cue is ever built and drive you nuts. Just give him the name of another cue maker you don't like and send them there.
 
Last edited:
macguy said:
This is just my opinion and it is everyone's prerogative to operate their business in what ever way they want. Having said that, many of these guys are more trouble then they are worth. As soon as they start with the " I like my shafts 13.385 millimeter and the weight 19.575 ounces you know you are in for a problem. Half these guys are wack-jobs.
Click to expand...

He He ... there is a lot of truth in your post, Macguy.
I have only been making cues for four years and am very picky about the work I accept.
First, I want to be sure I can perform and deliver on time what the guy wants, and second I most enjoy making cues that are a bit uncommon in design and materials.
This means experimentation and sometimes that spells failure.
Not all my ideas are good ones and I sure dont want to promise a cue based upon a bad idea to someone.
 
This is just my opinion, so if anybody doesn't have anything nice to say... %^$& off... :D .

Most people order a cue by a certain cuemaker, because they either like the overall appearance, design, hit/feel, playability, construction, reputation etc. Why call up Tim Scruggs, and ask for a Cog? Why call up Zylr, and ask for a Black? It doesn't make sense to me. Like Blud has said many times, a cuemaker builds his cues the way he has, for a reason, so they are in his/her image. If a cuemaker is known for his soft hit, and flexible cue, why ask for a hard hit and stiffer shaft taper, and vice/versa. If i ever order a southwest, and they ask for any specifications, i'll tell them to build it the way they build it, because that is why they are "famous".

When i get around to finishing up the cues i have in process, i really don't want to hear, "can you put this (or that, or whatever) taper on the shaft? No. Try it, and if you don't like it, have somebody local "tweak" it, and tell he how it goes, and maybe even send me the specs, and i'll try it out, and if i like it, i'll make it an option.
I plan on (eventually) having three shaft tapers to choose from; standard, stiffer than standard, and not quite as stiff as standard. That simple.
Why should a cuemaker work for years to get his version of "the perfect cue", just so some "wack-job" (I like that Macguy, it seems to fit lol) can ask for something completely different, when they don't even know what the standard is? I had someone ask me on another board, for a cue. In private we discussed specifics, and from what he was asking for (the funniest part was the .750" ivory ferrule, but a "low deflection" shaft), turned out the be almost dead on to a lucasi... wtf... :confused: and it turns out that was what he played with.

I think you should "search out" a cuemaker that makes a cue the way you like it, not just pick one and change everything, that makes it a (insert name here) Cue...

Thanks,

Jon
 
Last edited:
BiG_JoN said:
This is just my opinion, so if anybody doesn't have anything nice to say... %^$& off... :D .
Most people order a cue by a certain cuemaker, because they either like the overall appearance, design, hit/feel, playability, construction, reputation etc. Why call up Tim Scruggs, and ask for a Cog? Why call up Zylr, and ask for a Black? Jon
Click to expand...

Those are some good points, Jon, but what if someone likes your designs, Likes the way you do business, and wants to give his cue business to someone local, but asks for something special?
Forget the whackos, I am talking about reasonable requests.

There are so many cuemakers today that each one could not possably have a distinctive cue.
If you have CNC equipment then you know it is possable to dial in just about any shaft profile a person could want.
Isnt that what a custom cuemaker is all about?
Not taking anything away from the cuemakers that have one style of cue and one shaft profile, and have built up a loyal consumer base over many years, but in todays market it seems a new cuemaker that can be versitile has an edge.

Can you honestly say your cues "hit" that much different from some other cuemakers cues?
Are they really that unique?
If you had to discribe your cue's "hit" what other cuemaker would you be most likely to compair with.

I think the challenge facing upstart cuemakers today is to offer a high quality, solid cue designed and configred the way a customer wants it
but at the same time stay safely within his range of skills.
I know I turn down leather wraps because I havent done enough of them to feel I am offering a top quality job.
I felt the same way about linen wraps for about a year but now think My linen wraps are on par with the best.

There, Jon, was that nice or must I go " %^$& off ".
 
WilleeCue said:
Those are some good points, Jon, but what if someone likes your designs, Likes the way you do business, and wants to give his cue business to someone local, but asks for something special?
Forget the whackos, I am talking about reasonable requests.

There are so many cuemakers today that each one could not possably have a distinctive cue.
If you have CNC equipment then you know it is possable to dial in just about any shaft profile a person could want.
Isnt that what a custom cuemaker is all about?
Not taking anything away from the cuemakers that have one style of cue and one shaft profile, and have built up a loyal consumer base over many years, but in todays market it seems a new cuemaker that can be versitile has an edge.

Can you honestly say your cues "hit" that much different from some other cuemakers cues?
Are they really that unique?
If you had to discribe your cue's "hit" what other cuemaker would you be most likely to compair with.

I think the challenge facing upstart cuemakers today is to offer a high quality, solid cue designed and configred the way a customer wants it
but at the same time stay safely within his range of skills.
I know I turn down leather wraps because I havent done enough of them to feel I am offering a top quality job.
I felt the same way about linen wraps for about a year but now think My linen wraps are on par with the best.

There, Jon, was that nice or must I go " %^$& off ".
Click to expand...

First off, yes, that was a nice reply, so you don’t' have to %^$& off :p :D .
Design... well there is a good one lol. I don't have inlay capability (and don't plan to in the foreseeable future) so the only "designs" i can have are points and rings (purdy ones... i'll post some pics in the test area when i get some made up) And i'm waiting on points for maybe the next "batch" or two later on. Reasonable requests... like what? As far as the joint, no deal ;) , i'm making my own joint screw, and using short phenolic collars, as i feel that it works for me, but i'm gonna try some different materials sooner or later and see what i come up with. I might (it's still a big might) make a cue with a SS joint, but it would be a lot thinner than the standard 5/8-11 threaded I.D. Wraps? Nope, not until i test it out. I don't like wraps; i never really have, make me grip too tight, and muffle the hit/feel of the cue (so does the normal SS joint.)

Custom Cuemaker... look that whole phrase up in your funkenwagnel; it isn't there because there are too many different meanings. I have never or will never call myself a custom cuemaker, just a cuemaker, or independent cuemaker. I like my specs (butt and shaft, but experimenting with a different shaft taper, to be honest, at this point, i've made more shafts than butts :D ) and i don't see a reason to change them, i like the way they feel in my hands. Like i've said before, if you ask a cuemaker that sticks to his standards and tolerances, to go away from that, even he will not know how the cue will turn out.

I'm going to be completely honest, i have nothing to hide. I am just starting out, and have completed three cues to date (but i've been building for almost 2 years, go figure... stupid equipment problems lol.) One (my current daily driver) made it all the way. The other two are in the $#it can. One is gone, completely gone from this earth, to be blunt, i screwed up. The other is in pieces :D . After the first two, i decided to stop the trial and error process, and do some research, then i worked on the third (bocote full splice, but complete with bocote joint collar/buttcap, bird's eye butt sleeve, and rings consisting of white fibre/brass and bocote/maple checked rings and radial pin), even though it is a full splice, a lot of work went into it :D . And even though it's not perfect (needs a refinish, bought a crap "safe" finish from some place i will not name, screw it, i'll kill myself with a good finish, at least the cues will look nice) Back on topic, even though it isn't perfect, i'm still kinda proud of it, because it is one of the things in my life i have went all the way through with, and i'm gonna keep on truckin.

It's good that two starting cuemakers can have a civil conversation about cues isn't? Without all the flaming and wars... One thing you might want to think of, use up your spare time, and get on bobcad, and draw draw draw, and come up with some inlay designs, that are truly you, that (as cheesy as it may sound) come from your heart. Then you will be set. Me? I'm for Simplistic Elegance all the way.

The hit, again perfectly honest, i don't know exactly how this next batch of cues will hit, because they are the first with this construction (the best construction i know of.) And i'm pretty sure after this batch, i'll keep going, and expand, and maybe some day do some inlays (i can do line and circles now :D ) I have an idea about recut points i want to try, and i don't really like veneers, i got to hit with some cues that were the exact same (used the same shaft on each to test) "design" two with veneers and two without, but with the same point wood. The cues without the soft dyed veneers hit better IMO. I know this has nothing to do with this thread at all, but it's late(er than usual for me) and i have nothing else better to do than type "my story" on an internet pool forum... If you want to continue this conversation in e-mail (don't really know why, but just incase you want to lol) send a pm :D . Oh and you never replied to that last pm, do you remember Gene Pitney? Does my location make sense now? he he he :p

Thanks,

Jon
 
Can you honestly say your cues "hit" that much different from some other cuemakers cues?
Click to expand...
Some makers have been known to make great-hitting cues.
Yes, they actually have something unique about their hit.
Tim Scruggs sneaky pete?
One must wonder how a no points/no inlay cue can sell USED on Ebay for $950 made by a maker who's not even a "big" name.
People who have owned Hagancue swear by it. He had a unique hit and construction in his cues. People fight for his cues when they are auctioned on Ebay even though they have already turned orange due to lacquer finish.
Rick Howard's cues are very well-reputed for their great hit. I would say his cues have their distinct hit as well.
I think the market has already swayed toward reputed great-hitting cues over the fancy cues.
The hit, again perfectly honest, i don't know exactly how this next batch of cues will hit, because they are the first with this construction (the best construction i know of.)
Click to expand...
Find the hit you like Jon and go from there. I know you are already on the right track.
 
Michael Webb said:
I have always considered the final say to be more of an agreement by both parties.
Click to expand...
I agree with Mike. But since one or the other has to have the last word according to the original post, I will to take it to the old saying "the customer is always right". I would have to say the customer has the last word. He either says yes or no to the options I give him. I turn down some orders, but I usually try to get the guy to give a little and make suggestions as to what would be better in my opinion. So instead of me saying NO, I say I am not comfortable building a cue that will be a problem for them later. So I make suggetions and let them decide if they are willing to pay me to build a cue within the boundries I am comfortable with.
Chris
 
BiG_JoN said:
Oh and you never replied to that last pm, do you remember Gene Pitney? Does my location make sense now? he he he :p

Thanks,

Jon
Click to expand...

Nice reply Jon.

Who hasnt heard at least one Gene Pitney song on the radio.
I grew up listening to that music.
Saturday night top down crusin with your gal and Gene Pitney singing on the radio.
Best years of my life.
What feeling he put into his music
And a hell of a nice guy from what I read about him.
Even seen a documentary on TV about him.
Just didnt make the connection between what you said and his song.

Willee
 
As a customer

Well I own a few custom cues and ordered everyone directly from the cuemaker. As far as who as the ultimate say...I would said the cuemaker has the overall say when it comes to the playablity of the cue. As far as looks go...it has to be the customer.

IMO the best cuemakers create consistant cues...meaning the balance, taper, and overall feel of one cue vs. another is the same. They create a following because their cues are consistant.. ie... Southwest... If alterations from a customer tamper with the basics of the cuemakers fundamental in creating a cue than he should decline.

To call up a cuemaker and demand a hit of another cuemaker is insulting and absurd....desperate cuemakers will of course sign up...sorry if I offended anyone
 
WilleeCue said:
Nice reply Jon.

Who hasnt heard at least one Gene Pitney song on the radio.
I grew up listening to that music.
Saturday night top down crusin with your gal and Gene Pitney singing on the radio.
Best years of my life.
What feeling he put into his music
And a hell of a nice guy from what I read about him.
Even seen a documentary on TV about him.
Just didnt make the connection between what you said and his song.

Willee
Click to expand...

This is off subject but, what is that ferrule treatment on this cue? I don't see it on any of the other cues.

http://home.stx.rr.com/n5wrx/greenwalnut3.jpg
 
macguy said:
This is off subject but, what is that ferrule treatment on this cue? I don't see it on any of the other cues.

http://home.stx.rr.com/n5wrx/greenwalnut3.jpg
Click to expand...

When I started making cues I placed a thin red ring under the ferrule to make them visiably identifiable as something I made. Found out most peple did not like that and found it to be distracting so I stopped doing it.
That ferrule is a sleeve type and has been in service for about three years.
It is the first half splice with a veener that I made.

I have made some other ferrules from Acrylic.
Here is one of them:
 
Last edited:
Canadian cue said:
Here is a philosophical question for everybody, cuemakers and buyers. When building a custom cue who should have the last word as to how it should look? If you are the customer and you are having a cue built which reflects your ideas shouldn't you have the right to have it built to look exactly how you like it? What if your ideas go against the makers? If the cuemaker is going to put his name on it doesn't the work reflect his tastes and ideas of what looks good.
Click to expand...
Of course it's the customer's! He says "I like your idea Ed". LOL Getting to the actual start of the cuemaking for a particular customer is the tough part as the statements "Sorry, I can't do that for you" and "I guess I'll just have to try someone else" are spoken before this point. But once that point is reached, it's pretty much smooth sailing. No holds barred kind of communication is important. I always ask a customer for a "wishlist" then I send them an illustration or explanation of how I interpret it. Then he "FINAL-ly"gets to say the above statement. :)
 
JoeyInCali said:
Wait until someone calls you and wants an ebony with ivory points and ss collar and wants it not over 19 oz. :D
A friend of mine did that. After getting the cue, he x-rayed it.
The maker drilled the bottom of the cue.
Click to expand...
This is a good example of lack of communication. The cuemaker has the obligation to tell the customer why his idea is a bad one. Just building a bad cue, well, he did not do himself or his customer any favors.

But again, it's the question of "custom" If I want a special shaft, and am willing to pay for it, why would you not build it? In the case of a ridiculous shaft spec like Macguy mentioned, the cuemaker should just say, well I can make it between "this and this". I can't hold the tolerance to guarantee the shaft you describe.

If I ask for a solid ebony cue with a SS joint at 58" and 17oz., you should warn me that it's going to be pretty skinny! (or hollow). :p

Unreasonable customers are a part of every business. It's the business owner's responsibility to educate the customer, or just say no.

-CM
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top