Who is a Professional Billiard Player?

[DaveK]

Hi Dave,

Welcome to AZ! Understand your point of view. However, since there are only about two hundred "professional" level players out there and hundreds of thousands of amateurs, your way seems way too hard. You are correct that it is the sanctioning bodies job to tell everyone who may play in an event. I think they do that right now. Each event run by them says amateurs only. They also provide a list (the same one) of players that they know are "professionals" and are unacceptable entries at the event. It is the description of how they determine if you are a pro that bothers me. If you are not a full member of the UPA, forget it. You will not be listed as a pro even if you win a UPA event. No seeding points, no professional status. Only contracted members earn points. Therefore, my original question regarding Gabe Owen. According to the list, he is an amateur and may still play BCA/VNEA/ACS events as such. Thats the loophole I would like to see filled. For my benefit and yours.

Sorry Kid, I (as DaveKhome) didn't make myself clear. The classification is up to the amateur organization. If somebody like the VNEA doesn't list Gabe, it's their fault for not doing the task well. I said that the amateur groups list who they see as professionals, and thererby exluded from their events. I think we agree that this is the best implimentation of the class system, list the fewer numbers in the more visible classification (not the masses of amateurs).

Again, it is up to the VNEA to define their excluded pros, and the BCA to define their pros, and the other amateur organizations to define theirs. The lists will only match if the various org's use the same criteria, look at the same pool landscape, and interpret things the same. Given the fractured nature of both 'amateur' and 'professional' pool in North America today, I can't see that happening. In a tightly controlled evnvironment like snooker in Great Britan, it's a completely different story. Golf also has a pretty clean distinction, but again they have strong, singular sanctioning groups. Boxing is another 'fractured' professional sport, to the extent that we have multiple 'World Champions' with a single weight class.

Of course all of this would go away of they stopped giving out prize money at 'amateur' events. It seems an uphill battle to try to exlude 'professionals' from tournaments like the really big 'amateur' events. You know the ones, they have big posters all over promoting " $600,000 Prize Fund, 125 Tables, Join Our Amateur League and Play In Vegas !". It's all rather interesting from a sport-cultural perspective, but I'd rather be at the table ...

Good Thread Kid, thanks for the opportunity.

Dave

 

[ajrack]

$$$

How about this...

A PRO plays for more money!!!

If the money in the tourneys are (for example)...
>>$100 local tourney payoff = "C player tourney"..PROs are unlikely to play in these events...
>>$500 payoff = "B player tourney"...PROs may play in these events but there are probably only a few in a town when this event is played..
>>$1000 payoff = "A player tourney"..NOW...a PRO may play in this type of event but you should maybe allow them to play with a tough handicap...
>>$3000 payoff = "PRO TOURNEY" ...if you cash in the top 16 payoffs or near the top more than just a couple of times....you are a PRO!

Unfortunately, there are very few good paying tourneys for the PROS.
Without seating, decent advertising published a few weeks or months before a tourney, and a good benefactor to put up the $$$, I believe the PROS are going to continue to have a difficult time to be PROS.


The regular players who wish to "fire it up" in a PRO Tourney, and just compete to see how they play...are probably not going to cash in the top 16 but still want to play. .. just because they play..doesn't mean they are PROs...

...just my thoughts...

 

[onepocketchump]

Whether pro or amateur, Gabe Owen has not won the Open or the Masters division of the BCA or VNEA tournaments to my knowledge. The US Open is just that, Open, to any all with $500.

Taking money in a tournament does not make one a professional. There will also never, ever be an agreed upon definition for pool until there is a national amateur body that truly does govern ALL of amateur pool and which works with a national professional organization that TRULY governs professional pool. Right now we have neither. There are several leagues that CLAIM to be the voice of amateur pool and one organization that claims to govern professional pool. The problem is that all of the amateur bodies have different rules and the "professional" organization has little to no power yet.

John

 

[manlyshot]

Whether pro or amateur, Gabe Owen has not won the Open or the Masters division of the BCA or VNEA tournaments to my knowledge. The US Open is just that, Open, to any all with $500.

Taking money in a tournament does not make one a professional. There will also never, ever be an agreed upon definition for pool until there is a national amateur body that truly does govern ALL of amateur pool and which works with a national professional organization that TRULY governs professional pool. Right now we have neither. There are several leagues that CLAIM to be the voice of amateur pool and one organization that claims to govern professional pool. The problem is that all of the amateur bodies have different rules and the "professional" organization has little to no power yet.

John

Very well stated.

 

[cardiac kid]

Hi John,

Your statement is well put. However, it nicely sidesteps the problem. Your solution then, is just to do nothing. No, Gabe did not win the BCA Men's Masters this year. He finished tied for fifth. He is not the point. He is just a small part of the problem.

There are quite a few players who reach "masters" status in the BCA that stop playing in Vegas. Each year, BCA graduates at least sixty four NEW players to that rank. Since I entered the masters six years ago, there were almost four hundred new players added. If you take time to look at the event through the past six, the one thing that might interest you is the shrinking or stable fields. You would think it would grow. Especially with BCA paying over $7000 to the winner. Wouldn't that bring you back? This last event, the flood gates were opened. John Lewis was leaving the BCA. He obviously didn't care anymore and allowed all kinds of questionable entries. Therein lies the problem. How do you regulate entries into an AMATEUR event? The simplest way would be to define who can not play! Do I dare use the word professional at this point?

It is, in a very small way, rather unfortunate that Gabe won the US Open. Anyone who could defeat some of the best players in the world, head to head, match after match, deserves incredible kudos. I certainly am not in his class. Some have questioned how this guy could have pulled it off. Who was he? Is he really that good? Why haven't I heard of him before? Gabe WAS one of the best of the new crop of "unknown" players along with Tony Chohan and Scott Frost. There are a few others that also play to that level. I'm not picking on any of them.

I think we might both agree that there never will be one sanctioning body for amateur pool in the U.S. There is too much money to be made from league play. Too many players that play to a lower level and want a level playing field with those that can (APA?). Are there too many players or not enough?

At some point a few years ago, the BCA decided to detatch itself from the "right" to govern men's professional pool in the U.S. The newly formed UPA was given that "right" Whether you agree with it or not, is not the issue. The issue is they redefined who a professional player was and how a player achieves that status. That is the issue. It is the only thing that concerns me.

To become a professional in the eyes of the BCA, you must be in the top thirty two in UPA player points at the end of the calender year! If you are not a UPA member, you can not aquire points. You will never be a professional in the eyes of the BCA. That is rediculous! That means all I have to do is never join. I can beat those top guys day in and out without any fear that I will be also banned from playing in events clearly advertised AMATEUR.

John, if you think this is fair, I guess there is no hope for the majority of players who feel their money is being stolen. It is one thing for me to match up with Scott Frost (you insert a name) knowing he is one of the best new guys. That is my choice. It is another for some kid from (you decide the location) to travel to the BCA Amateur Championships (you decide the event) thinking he was going to play other players of his caliber and meet Gabe Owen instead.

Incidently John, when the BCA still governed pro pool, entering a tournament with a specified dollar entry fee or more and cashing was cause enough to get you ranked professional. That is how the great majority of players on the current list got there. Not because a group of "experts" decided they were pro's. There are other legitimate ways.

 

[manlyshot]

To become a professional in the eyes of the BCA, you must be in the top thirty two in UPA player points at the end of the calender year!

The professional list on the BCA website is not restricted to UPA members.

It is, in a very small way, rather unfortunate that Gabe won the US Open. Anyone who could defeat some of the best players in the world, head to head, match after match, deserves incredible kudos.

Give Gabe Owen his propers. He is the U.S. Open title holder and is what the Open is all about. It is not unfortunate in a very small way. It is an accomplishment that most can only dream about in a very big way.

 

[cardiac kid]

The professional list on the BCA website is not restricted to UPA members.

You're correct, it is not restricted to UPA members. However, you must have missed the part about having to be a UPA member to be ADDED to the list. Thats what it says. No membership with contract, no ranking points, no professional status at the BCA and other "amateur" sanctioning bodies. Some event promoters are taking the bull by the horns and creating a new catagory of player. I think they call it Grand Master. Their intention is to place all the players who "play to that level", but are not on the BCA list, in that catagory. Its a start.

Give Gabe Owen his propers. He is the U.S. Open title holder and is what the Open is all about. It is not unfortunate in a very small way. It is an accomplishment that most can only dream about in a very big way.

Yes it is quite an accomplishment. I will never do it, although I too will dream. I was using the term in a very narrow way. You are correct. I chose the phrasing poorly.

 

[KBP]

Hello all,
The hardest part of this question has to be the person or persons making the decision. That is exactly why we created Kings Bay Promotions, Inc., Amateur 9-Ball Tours that in January 2005, will be starting up in many new cities around the country. You have probably seen my posts on this forum in the past. Almost every one of them has something to do with this question. After years of dealing with this controversy, in 2004 we adopted this application. In short, we took the current BCA PRO and MASTERS list that was available at their website and started from there. If your name appears on the PRO list, you cannot play in our events. If your name appears on the MASTERS list, you are evaluated on a case by case basis. If your name was there, we have to assume it was put there for a reason. You can appeal this with the tour office, by letter, phone or email. As you can imagine, there are numerous players that dont show up on either list. As these individuals are made known to us, they as well as players that are borderline, and what I mean as borderline, they are current players signed up with us and begin to dominate the field of tournament players, are placed on what we refer to as a "watch list" and are evaluated as the tour season goes along. We have numerous qualified tournament directors in place and coming on board all the time as this tour grows, that we intrust with making on the spot decisions about whether to let someone play or not and in almost every case, they have made the right decision. We have made exceptions on a couple of occasions that have bit us and also have removed some names of players we felt shouldn't have been on the list to begin with that turned out perfectly well. This is not a perfect science but you have to start somewhere. Please join us at an event real soon. Check out our website at home.gate.net/~higgins3/
Tim Higgins
Tour Director

 

[cardiac kid]

Hi Tom,

Thats the kind of solution I've been asking for. Its not perfect. But then, nothing is! But it is a start. Have you "spoken" with Bob or Eydie Romano? Allen Hopkins? Mark Griffin? They are in the same "business" you are. I wish you lots of luck with your tour. If you get to New York or nearby, I'll give it a try. Sorry, I must not have read your previous posts on this subject.

 

[Snapshot9]

Gabe and being a pro

Gabe has been a Pro for quite some time, this is just the first time his name has been boosted up in lights so high.

Anyone that plays for 5 figures and wins more than they lose, is a pro in my mind. That would pretty well apply to 4 figures too.

James Waldon, from Oklahoma City, hasn't won a major event, but you go play him for some cash, if you have the guts and the money. He is definitely Pro caliber. (and by the way, Waldon lived in Wichita before he went south to Oklahoma). He used to practice on the big table at Rumors here in Wichita all the time. I asked James last June at the Midwest 9 tour event at Sidepockets here if he had ever played Shannon Dalton, and he said he was there in Kentucky, and his backer put him up, and Dalton's backer would NOT put Dalton up to play.

Anyone that supports themselves totally shooting Pool, and does decently is a Pro caliber also. Steve 'lil Steve' Rector and Jr. Brown here in Wichita would be in that category.

Shane McMinn, his mother, Brenda, is a good friend of mine, and I am friends with Shane too, hasn't won a major event, but has 4 Junior National titles, is pro caliber also. He is from Tulsa.

Having to finish so high in the Masters Amateur tournament is skewed because it could just be because of the draw you got that you got so far.

 

[onepocketchump]

The point is still that until there is ONE amateur body and ONE professional organization there will be NO coherence. The BCA was never the governing body of professional pool in any capacity.

It is entirely possible that ALL of the leagues - and I mean ALL of them could underwrite and fund a National Amateur Organization that is solely repsonsible for making the rules and determining who is an amateur and who is not. Such an organization could then be the sanctioning body for all amateur events which would be a guarantee for the players that they were going to play against amateurs and that they would be playing under consistent rules.

Then such a body could work with the professional organizations to coordinate player statuses, arrange for amateur spots in pro tournaments as a stepping stone into the pro ranks, organize a second tier amateur tour to feed the pro events and generally be a real governing body with some teeth.

I could technically be considered a "pro" pool player as I had a period of about a year where I supported myself solely from my winnings at pool. That said, the top 500 pool players in the United States could probably give me the six out and the breaks and rob me. So, am I an amateur or a pro?

John

 

[DaveK]

The point is still that until there is ONE amateur body and ONE professional organization there will be NO coherence.

I agree wholeheartedly. This would be the equivalent of golfs RnA or USGA in Great Britan / USA.

Hey, this leads to another question. In the same way that multiple amateur sanctioning bodies within a country have difficulty coordinating their 'who's a pro' list, how do the various golf groups do it between contries ? In other words, how does the USGA find out that someone who just turned pro in Scotland (RnA jurisdiction) doesn't qualify for the US Amateur (USGA jurisdiction) ?

Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't the USGA etc have a limit as to how much can be won before you loose your amateur status ? I know that pro's can also apply to have their amateur status reinstated, under very specific conditions (and no guarantee they willgrant the request either).

Dave

 

[JPB]

I agree wholeheartedly. This would be the equivalent of golfs RnA or USGA in Great Britan / USA.

Hey, this leads to another question. In the same way that multiple amateur sanctioning bodies within a country have difficulty coordinating their 'who's a pro' list, how do the various golf groups do it between contries ? In other words, how does the USGA find out that someone who just turned pro in Scotland (RnA jurisdiction) doesn't qualify for the US Amateur (USGA jurisdiction) ?

Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't the USGA etc have a limit as to how much can be won before you loose your amateur status ? I know that pro's can also apply to have their amateur status reinstated, under very specific conditions (and no guarantee they willgrant the request either).

Dave

Not sure how they coordinate. But the answer to the second question is simple. If you play in a tournament that offers prize money you must declare you are an amateur ahead of time and irrevocably waive any right to prize money. Once you tee it up with the potential to win a cash prize, however small, you lose amateur status. It doesn't matter if you win a dime. So the "limit" is $0. In golf amateur tournamnets may not offer cash prizes. Unfortunately, the USGA is very liberal as to how much you can win in merchandise certificates. You can win I think $750 in merchandise or merchandise credit in a tournament. If you convert it to cash you lose amateur status. Trophies don't count (symbolic value only) IMO the limit should be more like 250. I can afford balls and sweaters and don't compete for money so IDGAS. But many people just love the idea of winning gift certificates from their phony handicap. Calcuttas are also prohibited in amateur tournaments IMO. I don't think the USGA is strict enough on this either. Our club championship has a derby and sometimes local tourns have calcuttas. I won't participate in those things because I think these are prohibited even though the rule is not enforced. So I play the club championship and that's about it untill I can get my game back to at least lose in state ams. I hate the phony tourns with big merchandise payouts. Even though golf is light years ahead of pool, I think these events tend to destroy the amateur game; that is take away from what amateur golf should be.

You can apply to get amateur status back. Generally it is guys who tried their hand at pro golf then go back home and go into business or something. If you have been a pro for a long time they probably won't let you. They also make you wait for a while without playing amateur tourns or for prize money.


Pool of course has no rules. And it doesn't really bother me. I just don't get why people have so little heart they want to ban decent players from their events. If you can afford the tournament and don't play for a living you should hope to play champions. I don't get the energy wasted on trying to win 157.95 from a phony handicapped tournament against bad players. I'd love to play earl or efren in a dinky little $50 tournament. That would be sweet. And I don't want a handicap so I can "beat" a better player in a tourn. Matching up for cash is different of course.

 

[cardiac kid]

Hey, this leads to another question. In the same way that multiple amateur sanctioning bodies within a country have difficulty coordinating their 'who's a pro' list, how do the various golf groups do it between contries ? In other words, how does the USGA find out that someone who just turned pro in Scotland (RnA jurisdiction) doesn't qualify for the US Amateur (USGA jurisdiction)?

Dave,

There is no difficulty between American sanctioning bodies as to who WAS a pro. Unfortunately, the list that all four "Amateur" sanctioning bodies use is dated October 10, 2002. If you don't trust this, go to www.bca-pool.com. Under play, choose player list, then professional. It's two years old! No one has been added because of the change in who controls Men's Professional pool. My original complaint/question/thread starter has to do with how a player might be added to the "pro" list. The are guys out there (I fortunately or unfortunately, chose Gabe Owen as an example) that are listed as elgible to play amateur events, that are professionals by any reasonable standard. If you follow AZ results, I'd bet you could name five or six more of them without thinking too hard.

 

[cardiac kid]

Hello all, The hardest part of this question has to be the person or persons making the decision. That is exactly why we created Kings Bay Promotions, Inc., Amateur 9-Ball Tours that in January 2005.....

Hi Tom,

I was looking for some information on "pro" lists when I came across this at the new BCA site. It has the best description of player status I've seen in quite a while. Go to www.playbca.com. Choose Master Player List, then click to view. The New BCA has it's player list up! There are a few holes in it but its the best update I know of! They even tell you how you might qualify to advance to the next level. Wow, what a thought. What a list! What a country!!!

 

[Williebetmore]

`The New BCA has it's player list up!

CK,
Thanks a lot for the list - its a real eye opener. I have never paid any attention to "amateur" pool, so I was very interested to look at the Indiana names on the list. A bunch of the guys who hang out at the local pool hall, telling people how good they are/were, seem to be telling the truth. Just going by the Indiana list, I would say it is a good list of players with whom to avoid gambling (especially if they are asking you for weight). It made all the time I've spent lurking here worthwhile.

 

[Zims Rack]

Kind of off the wall comment, but curious to hear the different opinions on this one...

Is a Certified, Advanced or Master Instructor considered a Professional in the Billiard world? Would they be eligible for Pro events/Amateur events?

Zim

 

[JPB]

Kind of off the wall comment, but curious to hear the different opinions on this one...

Is a Certified, Advanced or Master Instructor considered a Professional in the Billiard world? Would they be eligible for Pro events/Amateur events?

Zim

If you charge money for lessons you should be treated as a pro. IMO. No matter how little you actually make from it.

 

[onepocketchump]

If you charge money for lessons then you might be considered a Professional Instructor. I wouldn't consider you a pro pool player though. I don't think there is any precedent in other sports for coaches to be classified as professional players because they take money for coaching.

John

 

[five]

If you charge money for lessons then you might be considered a Professional Instructor. I wouldn't consider you a pro pool player though.

I concur, good point.