Who is responsible....

classiccues

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OK.. here is a little poll..

Coming off of Pauly's thread on cue prices...

Ultimately who is responsible for the rise in secondary market cue prices on premium cues?

a- cuemakers and their waiting lists

b- Cuedealers

c- The people who PAY these prices and continue to drive the market up ie; collectors

d- all of the above

e - the Blue Book

Also post why you chose the answer.... if you want. I wasn't going to include pick d because its an easy way out.... Also remember this is a poll, not a flame fest (although I am sure this will go that way)

Joe (---curious to the "markets" opinion
 
Joe,

I honestly think C has more to do with it than anything. It is really what people are willing to pay, whether they are collectors or players. Kinda like I learned with baseball cards years ago...a card is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Shorty
 
I agree, if everyone in the world would only pay $1000 for any type of cue. That would be the most expensive cue out there. But since people are willing to pay $100,000's that increases the value of course when said person sells the cue they bought for 10,000 they arent going to sell if for 5,000! more than likely they will try to double/triple thier money. Just like the xbox 360 I got some and sold them on ebay couldnt believe what people would pay. I sold 2 for 900, 1 for 1300 and 1 for 1600. It was unreal!! I was glad people wanted them so badly! Basically it boils down to supply/demand and what some one is willing to pay for said item.
 
classiccues said:
OK.. here is a little poll..

Coming off of Pauly's thread on cue prices...

Ultimately who is responsible for the rise in secondary market cue prices on premium cues?

a- cuemakers and their waiting lists

b- Cuedealers

c- The people who PAY these prices and continue to drive the market up ie; collectors

d- all of the above

e - the Blue Book

Also post why you chose the answer.... if you want. I wasn't going to include pick d because its an easy way out.... Also remember this is a poll, not a flame fest (although I am sure this will go that way)

Joe (---curious to the "markets" opinion


The answer is C for sure!!

If someone who has deeper pockets wants something bad enough and they dont have a clue as to what its worth they dont care if they pay say 50% more for a cue,its chump change to them. They dont live in the real world and they dont worry about what its worth when they want to unload it either.
 
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SPINTHEBALL said:
Did those xboxes have a half joint?

I cant wait til they go on sale at walmart after xmas for 149.00!!!! But they probaly wont play the same as those expensive ones (first edition xbox).
 
Zestyfool said:
it will be a while before they go down to $149.00.........They were the $399 boxes!

It was just a joke,but I wouldnt even pay 399 if they were available now.
 
Simple economics. The law of supply and demand. If the demand is high, and the supply is limited..prices will rise. It is the nature of the beast.
 
who is responsible

The overseas contingent sent cue prices climbing,buying everything in site around the time the color of money came out. Prior to this,cue makers were struggling;you could buy a custom cue for a grand with a ton of inlays. The Japanese have been driving prices up ever since. In consequence to this, everybody and his brother that can afford a lathe is making a cue and wanting high dollars. The market is way oversaturated. When the bubble breaks,most of these guys will be looking for another job. Barry Szamboti won't be one of them, cream rises to the top.Greed is common to man. We all purchase with an eye toward future profits,rich and not so rich alike. What is your cue worth? Not what you want it to be, but what the concensus of your peers say it is! Do the people that can afford the ultra high end cues REALLY want a decline in prices? B.S. If anything they wants increases! Some of the people that want decreases,I believe;are those that cannot aquire top works because of price--this makes a cue like this covented even more by those who can! It is just a fact of human ego. I am amazed at the conjecture incurred on topics like this when we all know the answer. OURSELVES!
 
Okay, let’s try this. I’m not sure how this fits in with what joe is asking and if not, just ignore it. You have a cue design you want, you know what woods, inlays, veneers, everything. You have 5 different cue makers make that cue, barry szamboti, dennis searing, skip Weston, andy gilbert, and mike webb. Or pick five of your own. Do all of the cue makers charge you the same price for the same cue new? And if they don’t, what makes the difference in the price? How long does it take for each one to fill the order (I know, some are not even taking orders right now)? Why do some cue makers have such a long waiting list, does it take them longer to make a cue? Do they not make as many cues a year or do more customers order from them as opposed to someone else? Once you have the cues and you put them up for sale, which cues bring more money than you paid and which cues bring less than you paid?

I think we all know the answer to that question. How did this come about? I’ll use dennis searing for example. According to the blue book dennis searing started making cues in 1991. I have some cue sale photos from joel hercek (healthware fitness and billiards before he started cuemaking), mark kulungion, and john wright from 1992 to about 1997 and there is not one dennis searing cue for sale in any of the ads. As near as I can tell, about 1 or two years ago his cues got hot. Why now an not before? What happened, was it some word of mouth, someone on a forum like this said “searing cues are the best playing cues in the world” and it took off from there? That is where I think you will find the answer to joe’s question. C is the answer, why is the question. How does a cue maker get “hot”?


guy
 
C

The answer will always be C. I will only pay 750 for a cue, no matter if it's the deal of a life time or what ever. Are there cues worth more? Of course but I cannot afford them. 750 is it. It's the same reason I drive a ten year old truck, it's what I can afford. Luckily there's alot to chose from at this level and below. Are the prices inflated like paulyblatz says? I don't think so. Maybe he just needs to adjust his level system some. I don't know. Were would you trim the "fat' from? Cuemakers or dealers? Without dealers having standing orders on all the waiting lists it would be hard for everyone else to even get there hands on some of these cues. This is a good topic but I can't see anyone else but the buyer being resonsible. It can be opposite on production cues though. Too many dealers,too many cues = cheap prices on Ebay.(McDermott for example)

Andy
 
Shorty said:
Joe,

I honestly think C has more to do with it than anything. It is really what people are willing to pay, whether they are collectors or players. Kinda like I learned with baseball cards years ago...a card is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Shorty

Shorty,
Its funny you mention baseball cards.. I had an idea.. way out there.. but it would be fun. We take 3 2 piece generic sneaky petes, put them in a pack, do 100 packs. Each pack would be $ 250.00 One pack would contain a Szamboti or a Balabushka. No pack would be shipped or opened until they were all sold. How is that for a chase card?

Joe
 
I think too ...

That you have to consider the national and local economies
as well. As a result of all of the outsourcing and downsizing
of companies, some people can not afford the cues they really
want.
 
classiccues said:
Shorty,
Its funny you mention baseball cards.. I had an idea.. way out there.. but it would be fun. We take 3 2 piece generic sneaky petes, put them in a pack, do 100 packs. Each pack would be $ 250.00 One pack would contain a Szamboti or a Balabushka. No pack would be shipped or opened until they were all sold. How is that for a chase card?

Joe

Talking about baseball cards and completely off topic, I had a guy who used to live up the street from me who had 1 of 12 Honus Wagner cards, Mantle, Mays, etc...
He had well over a million dollars in cards which is probably why I haven't seen him in 20 years :D
 
classiccues said:
Shorty,
Its funny you mention baseball cards.. I had an idea.. way out there.. but it would be fun. We take 3 2 piece generic sneaky petes, put them in a pack, do 100 packs. Each pack would be $ 250.00 One pack would contain a Szamboti or a Balabushka. No pack would be shipped or opened until they were all sold. How is that for a chase card?

Joe
Those would be snapped up so fast it would make your head swim! I think you might be on to something there, Joe.
 
A good point

classiccues said:
Shorty,
Its funny you mention baseball cards.. I had an idea.. way out there.. but it would be fun. We take 3 2 piece generic sneaky petes, put them in a pack, do 100 packs. Each pack would be $ 250.00 One pack would contain a Szamboti or a Balabushka. No pack would be shipped or opened until they were all sold. How is that for a chase card?

Joe


I like this one, but you would still have the dealers (as in baseball cards and comic books) buying many many packs to get the good cards. Then selling the cards to whomever could afford the price the want.
 
paulybatz said:
I like this one, but you would still have the dealers (as in baseball cards and comic books) buying many many packs to get the good cards. Then selling the cards to whomever could afford the price the want.

Why? You are talking 3 generic $15.00 at wholesale cues in a pack. One pack, will have one good cue. Shipping them out at the same time is what will eliminate the resale issue. Once someone receives the classic cue, he will probably hit AZ with a chorus of "I've got the golden ticket". Now what has to be figured is 300 sneaks at 15 ea. Is 4500.00, 250 a pack thats 25000. So roughly 20k to decide the chasers. Maybe one lower end Bushka, One Palmer or Paradise. Make a 5 card (cue) chase set. Maybe it is something to think about.

Joe
 
classiccues said:
OK.. here is a little poll..

Coming off of Pauly's thread on cue prices...

Ultimately who is responsible for the rise in secondary market cue prices on premium cues?

a- cuemakers and their waiting lists

b- Cuedealers

c- The people who PAY these prices and continue to drive the market up ie; collectors

d- all of the above

e - the Blue Book

Also post why you chose the answer.... if you want. I wasn't going to include pick d because its an easy way out.... Also remember this is a poll, not a flame fest (although I am sure this will go that way)

Joe (---curious to the "markets" opinion

C is my answer for why cue prices have climbed to where they are today. Cue maker waiting lists have also added to the reason people pay the higher prices since for example it takes about 7 years to get a new South West cue so when people see a new one for sale they jump at the chance to pay a higher price than it cost from the cue maker to get it now and not wait. I know people who aren't dealers who get on cue maker's waiting lists just to eventually get a cue and sell it for a profit and take advantage of the long waiting list which keeps supply down. There's nothing wrong with making a profit selling a cue, but this keeps driving prices up on certain cue makers cues.
SCCues
 
The old adage of 'something is only worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it' can certainly be attributed to cue values. But that is only part of it, because what then is it that makes that particular cue more desired than the others? I call it the 'Buzz Factor'. Or, if you like, the 'Cue de Juor'. ;)

I used to manage a kite shop...the real nice high-end stuff...sport kites where the most popular. Now, a kite is much like a cue in that the basic principles of function are pretty simple. You have your plain kites, and then you have some pretty fancy, very highend kites. They all fly. It was very interesting to see how the 'Buzz' would take hold of a particular kite model, and it was the one to have, and then supply would drop as demand outgrew it, and the prices would sky-rocket. Don't laugh guys, I have seen several 10K kites out there!

Next season would roll around, and well there was a newer, better kite model out there, and then the chase was on again, and no one would dare be caught on the field with the old model, and you would take a loss on selling it for sure.

Of course, you did have a few classics, where the maker had passed, or where no longer in business, and these kites will command a premium. I know, I have and have had a few.

In cues, right now, the 'Buzz' is on several cuemakers right now: Dennis Searing, Andy Gilbert, Skip Weston, James White, Kerry Zeiler, Joel Hercek, B Szamboti, etc.

In the past, the 'Buzz' cuemaker was the likes of Mottey, Schick, Chudy, PFD, Kikel, Coker, etc.


WE, as the consumer, are responsible for the pricing and/or values that cues currently command. And if a particular cuemaker can demand higher prices than others, WE, as the consumer, are responsible for that too. The dealers/brokers are not solely responsible for higher prices, as they are in business to help consumers facillitate procuring a particular makers cue. If the cue does not sell at the price the consumer is willing to pay, then the price will eventually have to come down or the cue will not sell. The dealer/broker is the one taking the initial financial risk on any particular cue. Should that cue be made by a cuemaker who is currently on the 'Buzz Factor' list, he is going to be able to command whatever price that consumer is willing to pay to have it. Many of these dealers/brokers have had their names on some of the cuemakers' waiting lists for some time, having foresight as to what will be popular and what will not. Sometimes it pays off for them, sometimes it doesn't.

In the last 20 yrs we have seen average salaries skyrocket, and as a result, we have become an 'instant gratification' society. It is because of that 'need to have it now' that prices are what they are for any particular cuemaker. I am not discounting the artificial driving up of prices that takes place when you have certain collectors hoarding certain makers' cues...but, they are consumers as well. Which brings me back to my initial point.....WE, as the consumer are responsible for the prices/values of cues today.

Lisa
 
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