who is tor lowery

I can understand if someone expects good results from an instructor.
I don't blame anyone for choosing to spend their instructional money on a pro rather than a popular teacher.

Still, I've gotten good info from non-pros and the cool thing about Tor is, he puts a lot on youtube for free.
So I would at least give it a look even if he's never won a US Open.
 
I can understand if someone expects good results from an instructor.
I don't blame anyone for choosing to spend their instructional money on a pro rather than a popular teacher.

Still, I've gotten good info from non-pros and the cool thing about Tor is, he puts a lot on youtube for free.
So I would at least give it a look even if he's never won a US Open.

I find that most "game pros" (in any discipline) are not as good in teaching as "instruction pros". The game pro is too busy perfecting HIS game; he hasn't given much thought to how to teach others. It's true for golf, tennis, bowling, etc: the game pro might be able to tell you what you should be doing, but has no idea of the steps you need to take to get you there.

The game pro might notice that you're steering your stroke and tell you "stop steering your stroke; shoot straight", but he probably doesn't see the combination of mistakes you're making that cause the steered stroke. Even if he did, he hasn't given any thought to the steps necessary for someone to unlearn a bad habit and replace it with a good habit.

Teaching is an art. You have to practice it.

IMHO Tor has put a lot of thought into how he can best teach pool within the one-way communication limitation of a video.
 
Tor used to play pretty good some years ago when he lived in Portland, Oregon. I have heard many complaints in recent years about his content being ripped off from other instructors. Hope that isn't the case.

And that is complete BS. So, I guess we are too assume the "other" guy invented all his techniques to.

Here's a tip. I was taught how to bank by someone, and if I wanted to, I could spend thousands of dollars, maybe 10's of thousands of dollars making a DVD, marketing stuff, etc., and make a bank DVD, and use the same info I was taught if I wanted to..(I really, really don't)

Once I know something, it becomes mine. I mean, where does it end. I recall quite a few instructors saying folks should hold their cue with an easy grip, and not turn your wrist....hey, I WANT my royalties :) I can write a book on American History if I want, and I do NOT have to give one dime to the teachers who taught me, do I ???

Where does it stop ??

PS: Just looking at Tor's mechanic's, fluid stroke and ability to pocket long shots at will, It'd be safe to say the guy is no banger.
 
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Once I know something, it becomes mine. I mean, where does it end. I recall quite a few instructors saying folks should hold their cue with an easy grip, and not turn your wrist....hey, I WANT my royalties :) I can write a book on American History if I want, and I do NOT have to give one dime to the teachers who taught me, do I ???

Don't take this too far - there are limits. If I read "Twilight" I can't just re-publish it and put my name as author. If I read a pool book, I can't just put the same info down and sell it as my book. If it's similar enough, it very well could be "theft." I don't know the specific legal standards, but there has to be some originality, no?
 
Don't take this too far - there are limits. If I read "Twilight" I can't just re-publish it and put my name as author. If I read a pool book, I can't just put the same info down and sell it as my book. If it's similar enough, it very well could be "theft." I don't know the specific legal standards, but there has to be some originality, no?

Who was talking about "reading" a book. I said, if my teachers taught me American history, i'm free to write a book on the knowledge I now have. I'm assuming my teachers did not write books, heck, most of my college teachers did not write books on the subjects in which they teach.

So, yeah, once someone teaches me how to shoot pool, I can do with it as I please. If they say this is how to shoot a two-ball combo, I could sell a DVD on how to shoot two ball combos (assuming I wanted to go broke)
 
Teaching is an art. You have to practice it.

IMHO Tor has put a lot of thought into how he can best teach pool within the one-way communication limitation of a video.

What was great, was he filmed the shots first and then "commentated" to what was happening... versus the commenting and shooting at the same time... which is a little annoying and harder to follow since they are concentrating on shooting and speaking at the same time, and never comes off as good imho.
 
What is Mr Lowry selling or sharing?
If it is not his own original creation, does anyone else legally own it enough to exclude him from selling or sharing it?

Copyright

def: copyright: grants the creator of an original work exclusive rights to its use and distribution, usually for a limited time, with the intention of enabling the creator of intellectual wealth (e.g. the photographer of a photograph or the author of a book) to receive compensation for their work and be able to financially support themselves.

scope: applicable to any expressible, fixed form of an idea or information that is substantive and discrete. In the US, copyrightable works include:
(1) literary works;
(2) musical works, including any accompanying words;
(3) dramatic works, including any accompanying music;
(4) pantomimes and choreographic works;
(5) pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works;
(6) motion pictures and other audiovisual works;
(7) sound recordings; and
(8) architectural works.

proving elements of copyright infringement

plaintiff must prove:
(1) ownership of a valid copyright, and
(2) actionable copying by the defendant of constituent elements of the work that are original.

fair use defense

four non-exclusive factors the court will consider:

1. the purpose and character of one's use
2. the nature of the copyrighted work
3. what amount and proportion of the whole work was taken, and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work


Patent

def: patent: the right granted to anyone who invents any new, useful, and non-obvious process, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter.

def: patent from wiki: A patent (/ˈpætənt/ or /ˈpeɪtənt/) is a set of exclusive rights granted by a sovereign state to an inventor or assignee for a limited period of time in exchange for detailed public disclosure of an invention. An invention is a solution to a specific technological problem and is a product or a process

A patent does not give a right to make or use or sell an invention. Rather, a patent provides the right to exclude others from making, using, selling, offering for sale, or importing the patented invention for the term of the patent, which is usually 20 years from the filing date subject to the payment of maintenance fees.

There is no "fair use defense" for patent infringement.

This took <10 min to google and compile. I did not cite my sources.
 
Who was talking about "reading" a book. I said, if my teachers taught me American history, i'm free to write a book on the knowledge I now have. I'm assuming my teachers did not write books, heck, most of my college teachers did not write books on the subjects in which they teach.

So, yeah, once someone teaches me how to shoot pool, I can do with it as I please. If they say this is how to shoot a two-ball combo, I could sell a DVD on how to shoot two ball combos (assuming I wanted to go broke)

I'm not sure what the limits are on taking a class and then publishing that information as your own, but I'm certain there are some limits.

I was addressing what you said here: "Once I know something, it becomes mine." That is absolutely not true.

Clearly there is some basic knowledge that is present in most all pool instruction and it has no legal or ethical originality problem. But you seemed to say there are no limits whatsoever, which is not true. From what I've seen of Tor Lowery's work, he doesn't even come close to what you're saying is the limit.

Cheers
 
I'm not sure what the limits are on taking a class and then publishing that information as your own, but I'm certain there are some limits.

I was addressing what you said here: "Once I know something, it becomes mine." That is absolutely not true.

Clearly there is some basic knowledge that is present in most all pool instruction and it has no legal or ethical originality problem. But you seemed to say there are no limits whatsoever, which is not true. From what I've seen of Tor Lowery's work, he doesn't even come close to what you're saying is the limit.

Cheers

Hmmm, I think I will take a computer course on website design, and afterward I will write a pamphlet on creating a website.... who or what is going to stop me, and what is their legal recourse... do they own the techniques to create website that thousands of others already do, and pretty much do it in the same manner ? Nope.

If you don't agree, then how did the published professors ever write a book... I mean, they did learn their expertise sitting in a class room, correct. It's not like they can re-write history, so whatever they learned, they are gonna write about it..they may have a slightly different take on things because of their own biases and prejudices... but they can't change the evens of the world?? they just won't plagiarize anything, and they are good to go. I mean, is my history teacher gonna come after me for writing about the revolutionary war :)

And to make my point, please point out someone that has been sued successfully in the pool community for anything remotely close to this. I teach baseball.. guess what... I use the exact same batting stuff that was taught to me by Bill Madlock 20 years ago that I got from several paid lessons from him..... and I've taught thousands of kids the method... and when I write a book on baseball instruction one day, that info will be in there as well, with nothing for old Bill or the folks that taught Bill. They could have wrote a book and chose not to... oh well. Even if they did, I can still teach what I "know" and what I know is how to hit from learning from Bill Madlock (4-time NL batting champion).
 
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Hmmm, I think I will take a computer course on website design, and afterward I will write a pamphlet on creating a website.... who or what is going to stop me, and what is their legal recourse... do they own the techniques to create website that thousands of others already do, and pretty much do it in the same manner ? Nope.
I don't know exactly where the line is, but I do know that you can't pass off someone else's work as your own, even if you took their class.

If you don't agree, then how did the published professors ever write a book... I mean, they did learn their expertise sitting in a class room, correct. It's not like they can re-write history, so whatever they learned, they are gonna write about it..they may have a slightly different take on things because of their own biases and prejudices... but they can't change the evens of the world?? they just won't plagiarize anything, and they are good to go. I mean, is my history teacher gonna come after me for writing about the revolutionary war :)
They do original research and analysis, they don't just spit back what they learn.

And to make my point, please point out someone that has been sued successfully in the pool community for anything remotely close to this. I teach baseball.. guess what... I use the exact same batting stuff that was taught to me by Bill Madlock 20 years ago that I got from several paid lessons from him..... and I've taught thousands of kids the method... and when I write a book on baseball instruction one day, that info will be in there as well, with nothing for old Bill or the folks that taught Bill. They could have wrote a book and chose not to... oh well. Even if they did, I can still teach what I "know" and what I know is how to hit from learning from Bill Madlock (4-time NL batting champion).
I don't know if it's ever happened in the world of sports instruction. But I disagree with you if you're saying any and all copying is perfectly legal in sports instruction.

Anyway, I've made my point and I'll give you the last word on this. Cheers.
 
I don't know exactly where the line is, but I do know that you can't pass off someone else's work as your own, even if you took their class.

.

Yes, someone else's work. Here, you hit this diamond here, and the ball bounces here. But wait, the point/diamond is exactly half the distance between both of the balls.

Of course they are, just don't tell anyone or I'll sue your pants off :)
 
What is Mr Lowry selling or sharing?
If it is not his own original creation, does anyone else legally own it enough to exclude him from selling or sharing it?

Nothing I've seen in the Zero-X DVDs is stunningly original. Who was the first person to number the long rail diamonds 10, 20, 30....? Who discovered that high-running english causes an OB on the rail to hug the rail?

They're all basic ideas that are all in the public domain. Mr. Lowery has simply put it all together in a very good presentation. Good explanations at a good pace (not too fast to understand, but it never bogs down) with much thought given to the graphic presentation. Much of it is stuff I've heard before...but not explained as well or as thoroughly.
 
i also bought some of tor's stuff online and i thought it was some of the best explained instruction ive ever seen. Not trying to restart any controversy, but i watched a youtube video of jimmy reid explaining something (it was either banking or kicking) and by the time he was done i was so confused i wasnt sure which end of the poolstick to hold. Tor's explantions on kicking was so straight forward even an idiot (me) could follow it clearly and retain it.

and i agree with others, watching him run thru his drills and racks, clearly the guy has skills.
 
I spent a lot of time looking for kicking material. Tors is the best I found. A lot of kicking training only covers subsets of tors video. For example someone will show 1 rail kicks but only what to do if both the CB and OB are between the corner pockets. But what if either ball (or both!) are past the corner, on the end rail? Tor includes that too.

The Sid System is well known for 1 rail kicks off the end rail. But Tor points out that system breaks down if the OB is not close to the long rail. Tor presents a general system for end rail kicking that works regardless of where the CB and OB are.
 
I spent a lot of time looking for kicking material. Tors is the best I found. A lot of kicking training only covers subsets of tors video. For example someone will show 1 rail kicks but only what to do if both the CB and OB are between the corner pockets. But what if either ball (or both!) are past the corner, on the end rail? Tor includes that too.

The Sid System is well known for 1 rail kicks off the end rail. But Tor points out that system breaks down if the OB is not close to the long rail. Tor presents a general system for end rail kicking that works regardless of where the CB and OB are.

Actually, the Sid system works any where you just have to move the rail and start the end rail count from the new rail position, you can also use it on the short rail but it requires a lot more thought..
I have not made it through all of his material but it is very easy to understand from what I have seen.
Mark
 
I posted this thred not to start a teaching/copyright war but to see who he was and how good he really is, his vids make him look like hes better than "most" other instructors.
I would think with a game like that he would at least have played in bigger tournys, state tournys or vegas. At least some where noticeable.
 
I actually spotted his name in an accu-stats magazine.
They only did the magazines for a little while in the 80's.

He's near the bottom of the pack in this 1986 issue.
But I wouldn't base any judgments on that, anyone can have a bad tournament
and that field was full of champions.

We at least know he's been playing a while!

http://www.sfbilliards.com/accustats/V2_N04.pdf
 
I actually spotted his name in an accu-stats magazine.
They only did the magazines for a little while in the 80's.

He's near the bottom of the pack in this 1986 issue.
But I wouldn't base any judgments on that, anyone can have a bad tournament
and that field was full of champions.

We at least know he's been playing a while!


Holy Cow! Looks like he was flying in rarified air with that field full of monsters. That's practically a "Who's who?" list of the greatest players from the 80s. The fact that he was even there with that lot speaks volumes about his ability.:cool:
 
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