Who Wrote the WPA 10-Ball Rules ? They need to be put in front of a firing squad !

M

MikeJanis

Banned
9. Ten Ball

9.1 Determining the Break
9.2 Ten Ball Rack
9.3 Legal Break Shot
9.4 Second Shot of the Rack ? Push Out
9.5 Shots Required to Be Called
9.6 Continuing Play
9.7 Spotting Balls
9.8 Standard Fouls
9.9 Serious Fouls
9.10 Stalemate

9. Ten Ball
Ten ball is a call shot game played with ten object balls numbered one through ten and the cue ball.
The balls are played in ascending numerical order. The player legally pocketing the ten ball wins the
rack, and this can be achieved on the break shot without calling a ball. Only one ball may be called on
each shot. (See 9.5 Shots Required to be Called).

9.1 Determining the Break
The player who wins the lag chooses who will break the first rack. (See 1.2 Lagging to Determine Order of Play.) The standard format is to alternate the break, but see Regulation 15, Subsequent Break Shots.

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9.2 Ten Ball Rack
The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a triangular shape, with the one ball at the apex of
the triangle and on the foot spot and the ten ball in the middle of the triangle. The other balls will be
placed in the triangle without purposeful or intentional pattern. (See Regulation 4, Racking / Tapping of Balls.)


Ten Ball Rack


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9.3 Legal Break Shot
The following rules apply to the break shot:
(a) the cue ball begins in hand behind the head string; and
(b) if no ball is pocketed, at least four object balls must be driven to one or more rails, or the shot is a foul. (See Regulation 17, Open Break Requirements.)
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9.4 Second Shot of the Rack ? Push Out
If no foul is committed on the break shot, the shooter may choose to play a ?push out? as his shot. He must make his intention known to the referee, and then rules 6.2 Wrong Ball First and 6.3 No Rail after Contact are suspended for the shot. If no foul is committed on a push out, the other player chooses who will shoot next. The ten ball pocketed during a Push Out is spotted, without penalty.

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9.5 Shots Required to Be Called
On each shot except the break, shots must be called as explained in 1.6 Standard Call Shot. The shooter may call ?safety? in which case play passes to the opponent at the end of the shot and any object ball pocketed on the safety remains pocketed, except the ten ball which must be spotted. (See 8.17 Safety Shot.)

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9.6 Continuing Play
If the shooter legally pockets a called/nominated ball on a shot (except a push out, see 2.4 Second Shot of the Rack ? Push Out), any additional balls pocketed remain pocketed (except the ten ball; see 9.7 Spotting Balls), and he continues at the table for the next shot. If he legally pockets the called ten ball on any shot (except a push out), he wins the rack. If the shooter fails to pocket the called ball or fouls, play passes to the other player, and if no foul was committed, the incoming player must play the
cue ball from the position left by the other player.

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9.7 Spotting Balls
If the ten ball is pocketed on a foul or push out, or without calling it, or accidentally in the wrong pocket, or driven off the table, it is spotted. (See 1.4 Spotting Balls.) No other object ball is ever spotted.

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9.8 Standard Fouls
If the shooter commits a standard foul, play passes to his opponent. The cue ball is in hand, and the incoming player may place it anywhere on the playing surface. (See 1.5 Cue Ball in Hand)

The following are standard fouls at nine ball:

6.1 Cue Ball Scratch or off the Table
6.2 Wrong Ball First The first object ball contacted by the cue ball on each shot must be the lowest-numbered ball remaining on the table.
6.3 No Rail after Contact
6.4 No Foot on Floor
6.5 Ball Driven off the Table The only jumped object ball that is spotted is the nine.
6.6 Touched Ball
6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
6.8 Push Shot
6.9 Balls Still Moving
6.10 Bad Cue Ball Placement
6.12 Cue Stick on the Table
6.13 Playing out of Turn
6.15 Slow Play

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9.9 Serious Fouls
For 6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls, the penalty is loss of the current rack. For 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct, the referee will choose a penalty appropriate given the nature of the offense.

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9.10 Stalemate
If a stalemate occurs the original breaker of the rack will break again. (See 1.12 Stalemate.)
 
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Nobody Plays 10-Ball By The Above WPA Rules - Where the heck did they come up with these ?

This is bad, very bad !

For years I have been pushing the WPA rules of 9-ball because I liked the fact that it was an outside ruling body making a standard set of rules.

As for the new 10-ball rules, I am actually surprised they would make this dramatic of a change (Somebody did not do their homework). It is completely uncalled for and extremely bad for players looking to progress to 10-ball from 9-ball.

I also do not believe that these rules will encourage any organization, tour or tournament to use them here in the US.

Call shot? make a ball and play safe? Make a good hit on a ball after kicking 5 rails into a cluster making a ball and if you didn't call that exact ball in that exact pocket you give up your turn ??? What the heck, save this crap for the 8-ball game not 10-ball or any rotation game.

Somebody please make these rules go away !


This is my honest personal opinion.
Mj
 
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longhair said:
What's the problem, exactly, Mike?
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These 10-ball rules are basically tavern 8-ball rules played in a 10-ball rotation game.

They are horrible.

Look at this example in post #8 by jsp http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=87678
It tells volumes on why these rules are bad.

jsp said:
I'm really surprised by this. IMO, this is just a bad idea. Having this rule would not penalize bad/careless position play at all. The position play fundamentals for rotation games can be thrown out the window...they're not completely necessary to win a rack. You can just pocket each ball and play safe for each shot.

For example, a weaker player gets careless on his position play from the 8 to the 9, getting himself way too straight to get from the 9 to the 10. With the call shot rule, the weaker player doesn't have to attempt position at all, but just call a safety and freeze the CB to the rail, and have his opponent take the difficult 10.

CueTable Help



My prediction is that this call-shot rule will eventually change, and I'm guessing sooner than later.
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Calm down !

MikeJanis said:
This is bad, very bad !

For years I have been pushing the WPA rules of 9-ball because I liked the fact that it was an outside ruling body making a standard set of rules.

As for the new 10-ball rules, I am actually surprised they would make this dramatic of a change (Somebody did not do their homework). It is completely uncalled for and extremely bad for players looking to progress to 10-ball from 9-ball.

I also do not believe that these rules will encourage any organization, tour or tournament to use them here in the US.

Call shot? make a ball and play safe? Make a good hit on a ball after kicking 5 rails into a cluster making a ball and if you didn't call that exact ball in that exact pocket you give up your turn ??? What the heck, save this crap for the 8-ball game not 10-ball or any rotation game.

Somebody please make these rules go away !


This is my honest personal opinion.
Mj
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At least some entity is trying to make order out of chaos. Give them a chance. I'm sure the players will be allowed input and the rules will be modified. Sorry but it's more effort than the BCA has put out in the
last fifty years! This is my humble opinion.
 
SJDinPHX said:
At least some entity is trying to make order out of chaos. Give them a chance. I'm sure the players will be allowed input and the rules will be modified. Sorry but it's more effort than the BCA has put out in the
last fifty years! This is my humble opinion.
Click to expand...

If these rule fall under the 5? year moratorium they will not be changed.

Somebody needs to do something quick !
 
Whats wrong with Texas express rules for 10ball?!....nothing!, and screw that alternate break crap!

not to mention making the 10ball on the break IN ANY POCKET is a win. That sux! I like it being spotted and the breaker keeps shooting. As for the other lammo rule MJ talked about...I'm right there with him!
 
I'll post here as well, this thread is more about weird 10-Ball rules than mine about 10-Ball and 9-Ball WC titles.
jsp said:
For example, a weaker player gets careless on his position play from the 8 to the 9, getting himself way too straight to get from the 9 to the 10. With the call shot rule, the weaker player doesn't have to attempt position at all, but just call a safety and freeze the CB to the rail, and have his opponent take the difficult 10.
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nice example to illustrate the way to kill the game

If the WPA's aim is to reduce the luck factor in the game
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10-Ball itself reduces luck factor, it is harder to play (if played like 9-Ball). Harder to get a good break, play shape after a break and have a guaranteed position/run-out. Make it "call the winning ball" if you like, but don't imply safeties like in 8-Ball.
 
Sorry, but I'm completely in the dark about the significance of the WPA. I guess I'm wondering what would keep any tournament director or other organization from printing their own rule set?
 
Da Poet said:
Sorry, but I'm completely in the dark about the significance of the WPA. I guess I'm wondering what would keep any tournament director or other organization from printing their own rule set?
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Class Time - One of the goals of the WPA and through the BCA here in North America is to establish 1 set of rules that everyone can play by. The WPA is the WORLD body so whatever they say all of the WORLD bodies have to play by their rules in any and all WPA santioned events or any event sanctioned or sponsored by the underlying organization body of any particular country. They are verey important through out the world for cue sports.

The ultimate goal is 1 set of rules that everyone can and should play with.
One example of the problem that exists without them (WPA rules) is playing pool in tavers. Every city or state the rules vary from place to place and it creates a lot of confusion among the players or event organizers.

There is nothing ever stopping a promoter/TD from using different rules but why would you want to if the entire world is playing under 1 specific set.

Did that help any ?

Also see the organizational chart for the WPA to help get a grasp on how much influence they have. Here is the link: http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=member
 
Based on what I can see, 10 ball now becomes a mixture of 8 ball (at least with the VNEA rules we play with), and a rotational game.
- no flukes
- you can call safe

Personally, I would like to see the following rules:
- 10 ball (or 9 ball), does not count on the break
- the three foul rule removed (in league play, we end up wiht 2 hour matches because of idiots going for 3 fouls all day long)

Hmm... I would say that I don't like the new rules however I will play by them and use them to my advantage if this is what it comes down to.
 
That's just like 14.1 rules, pocket any ball and if you call safe your opponent has too shoot :mad: , bad move WPA, sounds like a fox in the hen house.
So when a straight in shot handcuffs the shooter from getting shape on his next ball, the shooter can pocket the ball and either draw back or follow, hook their opponent or leave them a length of table shot and thats the new rotation rule, makes me think John Lewis wasn't at that meeting, I KNOW HE would of PROTESTED...LOUD & CLEAR.

Louie where are U?
 
MikeJanis said:
Class Time - One of the goals of the WPA and through the BCA here in North America is to establish 1 set of rules that everyone can play by. The WPA is the WORLD body so whatever they say all of the WORLD bodies have to play by their rules in any and all WPA santioned events or any event sanctioned or sponsored by the underlying organization body of any particular country. They are verey important through out the world for cue sports.

The ultimate goal is 1 set of rules that everyone can and should play with.
One example of the problem that exists without them (WPA rules) is playing pool in tavers. Every city or state the rules vary from place to place and it creates a lot of confusion among the players or event organizers.

There is nothing ever stopping a promoter/TD from using different rules but why would you want to if the entire world is playing under 1 specific set.

Did that help any ?

Also see the organizational chart for the WPA to help get a grasp on how much influence they have. Here is the link: http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=member
Click to expand...


Thanks. It might have seemed like a dumb question, but it helped me anyways. :D
 
Neil said:
I posted this in the other thread on this subject. But I want to make sure Mike sees it, and get his take on it after he thinks about it a little.The same (very similar) scenario happens his way also. It's called a safety.

I agree with call pocket. But even if you have balls made on a safety spotted, you can also use that to your advantage.

The example shown is a good one. One could just as easily put up an example of both players are hill-hill, and the shooter misses by a mile, but slops it or something else in and runs out to win the match. And somehow some of you think that this is fairer? IMHO one should never be rewarded for slopping in a ball. It's getting rewarded for missing.

In the example shown, that is nothing more than strategy. No different than getting bad shape and playing safe behind another ball to where there is no hit. Same thing. And it's (call pocket) been around in 8-ball for a long time
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Yes, it is exactly like call shot 8-ball and that's the problem.

Part of the game of rotation is not getting out of line on a makeable shot. In 9 and 10 ball players play many safeties and force their opponents to shoot har shots. However, in rotation, a gam of run-out ability there is no room or call for the situation as illustrated in the above Wei table on a previous post in this thread. At the highest level of the rotaion game ther is very minimal slop. it's almost not even a factor. The making a ball and calling a safety on the last 2 balls of a game puts in backwards in a skill factor and makes it exactly like 8-ball. If you want 8-ball just play 8-ball.
 
Neil said:
True, at the highest levels there is little slop. But the lower levels tend to follow the rules as you stated.

I can easily see your problem with the wei scenario. But, my point is- how is that any different than any other safety? The shooter gets out of line and plays a lock up safety. Then gets ball in hand and runs out the last couple of balls. In the wei shot, at least the incomiong player has a shot at winning. The worst he gets is a bank shot. And at the top levels, that shouldn't be THAT big of a problem. Nowhere's near as big as being hooked.
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The problem is that it is no where near or close to the tradition of a rotation game. Whether its 9, 10 or 15-ball, the new WPA 10-ball rules do not reflect the history, tradition or current way the game of rotation is played. They exactly reflect 8-ball and that is not a rotation game.
 
Hold on there !

Gerry said:
Whats wrong with Texas express rules for 10ball?!....nothing!, and screw that alternate break crap!

not to mention making the 10ball on the break IN ANY POCKET is a win. That sux! I like it being spotted and the breaker keeps shooting. As for the other lammo rule MJ talked about...I'm right there with him!
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You are obviously not old enough to remember why "Texas Express"
rules were implemented. The only network looking at pool was ESPN.
They wanted to speed the game up and could have cared less about
what effect it had on the outcome. We, as players had determined long
ago, the fairest way to play 9 ball,(or 10 ball) was the 2 shot foul rule.
That has NOT changed.
 
SJDinPHX said:
You are obviously not old enough to remember why "Texas Express"
rules were implemented. The only network looking at pool was ESPN.
They wanted to speed the game up and could have cared less about
what effect it had on the outcome. We, as players had determined long
ago, the fairest way to play 9 ball,(or 10 ball) was the 2 shot foul rule.
That has NOT changed.
Click to expand...



ESPN may have been the main factor for going to 1 foul but nobody can deny the fact that thje TE rules took off like a whirlwind and caught on with every player and promoter. Yhe 2 foul suggestion only came back into play after many of the old time stars of the gane started getting beat by the new stars. It's happening again today with the rack and break rules.
 
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