Who Wrote the WPA 10-Ball Rules ? They need to be put in front of a firing squad !

catscradle said:
Mike, Jay, anyone else.
I don't see the big problem with one rule that seems to be objected to strenuously. The call shot rule, why is that a problem? I'm not saying it isn't, just want more explaination why you think it is.
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Call shot does not work for 9-Ball or Ten Ball IMO. First of all, there are too many two way shots that are played. Second of all, it would really slow the pace of the game. Too much stopping, too many questions about which ball, which pocket etc. etc.

Most of the time, a ball does not need to be called anyway. It is an obvious shot. So now, will you call a foul if the player fails to designate his pocket. NOT! And when it's a cut shot with a possible billiard on the nine, must he call that as well. All of it, part of it, what? If he makes the billiard, but not the shot, is it a foul?

Playing call shot in Ten Ball opens up a whole can of worms, that will only confuse and delay the game. But like I said, who asked me anyway? I'm just a guy in a diner. :)
 
jay helfert said:
Call shot does not work for 9-Ball or Ten Ball IMO. First of all, there are too many two way shots that are played. Second of all, it would really slow the pace of the game. Too much stopping, too many questions about which ball, which pocket etc. etc.

Most of the time, a ball does not need to be called anyway. It is an obvious shot. So now, will you call a foul if the player fails to designate his pocket. NOT! And when it's a cut shot with a possible billiard on the nine, must he call that as well. All of it, part of it, what? If he makes the billiard, but not the shot, is it a foul?

Playing call shot in Ten Ball opens up a whole can of worms, that will only confuse and delay the game. But like I said, who asked me anyway? I'm just a guy in a diner. :)
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Jay, you forgot to elaborate on the effects of the call shot slowing the game down. As a result of this "Call Shot" rule the game will be slowed down considerably. This is a problem because:

A: For the reasons Jay mentioned above
B: 10-Ball already takes longer to play a race in than 9-ball
(example: Race to 11 in 9-ball and a race to 7 or 8 in 10-ball average out to take about the same amount of time)
C: Now with call shot a Race to 7 or 8 in 10-ball will have to be lowerd to a race to 5 maybe even 4 to fit into the same time slot.

As a TD this is horrible. How am I going to tell the players that instead of paying a $100 entry fee to play a race to 11 in 9-ball, 7 in 10-ball that we will now be playing a race to 5 for say $10,000. Talk about a hard sell.

Additionally, TV matches will be BOOOOOORING to watch and they might only bae a race to 5. Yeah, lets determine who the best player is in a race to 5 ?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

safe make the 1, safe make the 2, safe hit the 3, safe hit the 3, 3-ball corner pocket, whoops got straight on the 4-ball, safe and pocket the 4. Do you see it ? BOOORING

Or how this, listen to the announcer:

Wow Jay played a great safe on the 2 and buried the CB behind the 7 and 10. But Jay left the 2 hangin in the pocket. What's Mike gonna do ? NO WAY, he's, YES, YES hes gonna kick 7 rails to pot the 2. WOW, he hit the CB good. 1, rail, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and YES, the crowd is going crazy he kicked the 2 in after hitting seven rails. WOW, what an amazing shot. !!!! Woooo, wooo , woo, whats that Ref saying ? Mike didn't call the shot and now it's Jays turn at the table.......
 
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MikeJanis said:
Jay, you forgot to elaborate on the effects of the call shot slowing the game down. As a result of this "Call Shot" rule the game will be slowed down considerably. This is a problem because:

A: For the reasons Jay mentioned above
B: 10-Ball already takes longer to play a race in than 9-ball
(example: Race to 11 in 9-ball and a race to 7 in 10-ball average out to talke about the same amount of time)
C: Now with call shot a Race to 7 in 10-ball will have to be lowerd to a race to 5 maybe even 4 to fit into the same time slot.

As a TD this is horrible. How am I going to tell the players that instead of paying a $100 entry fee to play a race to 11 in 9-ball, 7 in 10-ball that we will now be playing a race to 5 for say $10,000. Talk about a hard sell.

Additionally, TV matches will be BOOOOOORING to watch and they might only bae a race to 5. Yeah, lets determine who the best player is in a race to 5 ?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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One question Mike. Did Ed call you? I thought so. :rolleyes:
 
jay helfert said:
One question Mike. Did Ed call you? I thought so. :rolleyes:
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Yeah right. He called me just like KT did right before he booked a big event on top of my Nationals and just like the Nacpbapdf guys did when they said they called everybody.........


Ed WHO ?



Now, we can't blame Ed for everything. Not alone that is, so lets pick on some of the other WPA people.


Fran Crimi
Board Member
NYC, North America

I did email Fran about my concerns and she sent a nice reply saying she would forward the Message. To who exactly I do not know.


Here are all the Director from the board of the WPA

http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=director

You can email each of them directly from the above link or you can send feedback to the WPA at the below link.

http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=contact

As Jerry Forsyth pointed out, a carefully worded respectful note citing the rule # along with your concerns/objections would be best to send to them.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
One of the suggestions in the preliminary discussion of 10-ball was that the ten should not count on the break if made in a foot pocket. At least we avoided that one.
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Unfortunately for me, that is one of the few changes I would have actually wanted. :( Putting that rule in place would streamline the process of getting the balls racked, in my opinion, since there would be less concern about minuscule gaps near the money ball. I'm actually surprised to hear that you wouldn't like that rule. Is it just the fact that only two pockets are specified that makes you dislike it?
 
One shot rule

Well, of all the reasons mentioned for not being call-shot, the best one I see is too avoid slowing the game down. To me as somebody just out playing, no big deal so the game is a little slower. However, when you guys bring in the perspective of people trying to run tournaments in a timely fashion and make pool marketable, you convinced me.
 
jay helfert said:
And when it's a cut shot with a possible billiard on the nine, must he call that as well. All of it, part of it, what? If he makes the billiard, but not the shot, is it a foul?
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According to current rules,
Only one ball may be called on each shot. Meaning you've got to choose which one to call in your example, object ball or the bal you are going to billiard.
If the shooter fails to pocket the called ball or fouls, play passes to the other player...
f the ten ball is pocketed ... without calling it, or accidentally in the wrong pocket ... it is spotted.
Cuebacca said:
In call-shot, when you can pocket the ball and play safe, you don't have to worry about the final position of the object ball. When you pocket the object ball, you're essentially playing safe on a new object ball, which is not moving. I think that's a lot easier than having to worry about both the cue ball a moving object ball.
Rotation games are the only ones where this would be significant. it's just the rotation games that have this built-in issue with safeties when it's call shot.
In my opinion, if it must be call shot, there should be a restriction where if any ball is pocketed on a safety, the incoming player has the option to pass the table back.
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Very well said about the nature of rotation games. If WPA wants it to be called game, eliminate called safeties. Either accept suggested rule, or simply doesn't allow pocketing a ball on a safety.
 
catscradle said:
. However, when you guys bring in the perspective of people trying to run tournaments in a timely fashion and make pool marketable, you convinced me.
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You summed that up very nicely. That is EXACTLY the problem.
 
Leave the rules the same add one ball, no need to re-invent the wheel. Besides, I think Mike mentioned this, those matches would take forever with the wpa rules and the game would be boring!
 
I sent the below letter to the WPA (its my 2nd letter to them).

I encourage all of you to voice your concerns by also sending them a letter.

It's probably best to send your lletter using the link below.

http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=contact



Letter the the WPA......

After many discussion with other promoters of cue sports here in America we have determined what we feel are the two main problems with the WPA 10-ball rules.

A: The new 10-ball rules will make it very difficult to run tournaments in a timely fashion. The effect of this will mean much shorter game sets than we currently have.

B: Marketability; as a result of the current WPA 10-ball rules it will make it extremely difficult to market the game of 10-ball in the US and abroad.

It is our suggestion that the game of 10-ball as played just like 9-ball has served its purpose regarding adding a level of difficulty to the game. Therefore we respectfully suggest that the WPA 10-ball rules exactly mimic those of the WPA 9-ball rules.

Please forward these comments to the appropriate parties as a request to modify the WPA rules of 10-ball.


PS.. Thanks catscradle
Mj
 
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Very well said Mike, I will send a letter also. Glad to see your tournaments are doing well...

Matt
 
Vahmurka said:
According to current rules,
Only one ball may be called on each shot. Meaning you've got to choose which one to call in your example, object ball or the bal you are going to billiard.
If the shooter fails to pocket the called ball or fouls, play passes to the other player...
f the ten ball is pocketed ... without calling it, or accidentally in the wrong pocket ... it is spotted.
Very well said about the nature of rotation games. If WPA wants it to be called game, eliminate called safeties. Either accept suggested rule, or simply doesn't allow pocketing a ball on a safety.
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Once again, bad rule! I just wonder who makes this stuff up? They couldn't be pool players. If they are, shame on them.
 
jay helfert said:
Call shot does not work for 9-Ball or Ten Ball IMO. First of all, there are too many two way shots that are played. Second of all, it would really slow the pace of the game. Too much stopping, too many questions about which ball, which pocket etc. etc.

Most of the time, a ball does not need to be called anyway. It is an obvious shot. So now, will you call a foul if the player fails to designate his pocket. NOT! And when it's a cut shot with a possible billiard on the nine, must he call that as well. All of it, part of it, what? If he makes the billiard, but not the shot, is it a foul?

Playing call shot in Ten Ball opens up a whole can of worms, that will only confuse and delay the game. But like I said, who asked me anyway? I'm just a guy in a diner. :)
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Now I am confused Jay, In my poll, you voted that you supported the new 10 ball WPA rules. Honestly I was surprised to see you vote that way. After reading this I assume it was a misunderstanding of how I worded the poll I guess.
 
Scottster said:
After reading this I assume it was a misunderstanding of how I worded the poll I guess.
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That's what confused me as well, and I didn't vote. It didn't sound obvious.

You might consider making a new poll and take into account what Mike Janis said, that he didn't like both variants you suggested. Instead, list all the major rules for 10-Ball in two variants, like "10 on the break should count as a win", "10 on the break should be spotted", "shots should be called", "shots should not be called", etc.
Let's create the set of rules based on our voting, if there are enough votes (and we can reach over 3000 I bellieve) such public opinion can't be ignored by the officials.
 
Scottster said:
Now I am confused Jay, In my poll, you voted that you supported the new 10 ball WPA rules. Honestly I was surprised to see you vote that way. After reading this I assume it was a misunderstanding of how I worded the poll I guess.
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Funny, I just voted today, and I voted for Texas Express rules with the ten ball going on the break. Look again.
 
Vahmurka said:
If WPA wants it to be called game, eliminate called safeties. Either accept suggested rule, or simply doesn't allow pocketing a ball on a safety.
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You can't have a called game without called safeties. A "called safety" in a called game is just a formality. A called safety is equivalent to saying "six in the side," and then shooting it straight in the corner.

There's no consistent and fair way around this. The only thing you can do is keep things as they are in Texas Express. If you pocket a ball, you must shoot.
 
arsenius said:
You can't have a called game without called safeties. A "called safety" in a called game is just a formality. A called safety is equivalent to saying "six in the side," and then shooting it straight in the corner.

There's no consistent and fair way around this. The only thing you can do is keep things as they are in Texas Express. If you pocket a ball, you must shoot.
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There is a way around it: Make a rule that when a ball is pocketed in the "wrong" pocket, the other player has the option of who shoots next. That covers both slopped balls and called safeties.

I agree though that in rotation games it's better to just allow "slop" altogether.
 
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