Why avoid deflection like 'THE PLAUGE'?

deadgearplyr said:
...............................

The bottom line: Don't be fooled! Deflection is a part of mastery and should be desired, not avoided!
Click to expand...


Great point. But I like to follow up posts like this with my favorite analogy.

Deflection is there because hundreds of years ago (or whatever) when billiards was first played the cue we had are all we had. So as time evolved so did technology like every thing else in this world.

And my analogy is: Internal combustion engines. Back when they were invented they needed a way to keep them lubricated and refined Crude oil was the available option. Now a days we have advancements like Synthetic oils. So if hypothetically speaking the internal combustion engine was invented 10-15 years ago when Synthetic oil was we wouldn't be complaining about not using natural lubricants because we would have been using synthetic all along. Maybe we should all keep using Internet Explorer instead of Firefox, or solid wood drivers with metal shafts instead of graphite with Titanium, or maybe I should keep shoveling my snow instead of using my convenient sno-blower.

So this holds true for pool cues as well. If pool was just invented 5-10 years ago knowing whet we know now we wouldn't have a beef about LD shafts because it would be the thing to use. But instead we have the old schoolers that think because high deflection was the way it was in the beginning, then that the way we should keep it.

But what if it wasn't the beginning, and the beginning was now?! ;)
 
Last edited:
Oh yeah....
Not to hijack the thread but while you're trying to avoid LD deflection shafts, you should also stick your head in the sand when someone mentions aiming systems. :deadhorse: :slap: :dance: LOL

JoeyA
 
However, I don't believe that there are shots that can only be performed with one type of cue shaft, LD or Conventional.

Sorry, have not learned how to use the quote feature yet but the above is by RBC. Mike Massey will be glad to show you one or more shots that cannot be make without a LD shaft. Having read Predators patent before I started making laminated shafts, over 11 years ago, the two things I strive are radial consistency and low variation over speed of stroke. As for Predators or any one elses ads I have seen they all omit - "Relative to the line of stroke".

Bob Danielson
 
RBC said:
However, I don't believe that there are shots that can only be performed with one type of cue shaft, LD or Conventional.
Click to expand...
Well... I think one type of shaft makes certain shots easier to execute. The Fouette shot probably is way easier with a normal shaft and extremely difficult with a LD shaft.

Jump shots... try it with either and I think everyone comes up with the same conclusion.

Conversely, I"ve found that simple masse' shots are way easier with a LD shaft.

Fred <~~~ IMO, of course
 
bdcues,

Thanks!

Actually, I was responding to the statement that there were shots that a LD shaft could not make. I am glad that Mike feels that there are shots that can only be made with an LD shaft, but I still feel, although it may be much harder, that any shot can be made with a conventional shaft.

I have to add, thanks to cornerman, that I am wrong that every shot can be made with a LD shaft. Jump shots are much harder, and cannot be made to the same level, with LD shafts as compared to conventional shafts.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
Fred,

Thanks for bringing up the jump shot. They are much easier with conventional shafts.

By the way, what is the Fouette shot? Obviously, this is some type of a pool shot, that uses the general physics involved in pool, that has been given a fancy name.

Maybe you can show me at the Derby City!

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
Mike makes a shot with high right and a little speed, cue ball and object ball in a straight line to the pocket, aims center of the object ball and pockets both balls directly into pocket. Try to make it without a LD shaft.
And I forgot the third thing I strive for in my shafts - feel.
 
deadgearplyr said:
I don't like the direction pool is going when it comes to buying skill through equipment.

Why does it appear that every time I turn my head on this forum, I am realizing more and more people are too concerned about low deflection. I believe pool should be learned to play with a tolerable amount of deflection that can be 'controlled' by the skilled. Experience is something that can't be replaced and I say this to LD shaft worshippers out there, 'Go practice some more' or spend your money on lessons, you don't need an LD shaft to play well, you need a solid, quality hitting shaft. Any player who can actually play would be able to pick up just about A-N-Y cue out there no matter how junky, even off the wall. Why are ivory ferrules so popular? They deflect more and LBM! It's because the of the 'hit' and the person behind the stick that matters the most. This is where our focus should be placed. I think people are being mislead and are off track.

I think if people realized how to stroke the ball correctly, they wouldn't be so interested in finding a 'low deflection' shaft, but a 'quality shaft' made from 'quality wood' by a 'quality maker'.

Just as Mike Sigel used to say when commentating, "The center of the table is your FRIEND in pocket billiards". I feel the same way about deflection in my cue.

The bottom line: Don't be fooled! Deflection is a part of mastery and should be desired, not avoided!
Click to expand...

There have always been LD shafts, except people were not really aware of it. This summer , an older gentleman turned up with his 1st cue he had ever bought.He purchased it in 1947 and bought it cheap. The maker did not like the way it hit, and thought it was too light in the front end.It was only about 12mm at the tip, and was a straight for about the 1st 6 inches.
It was a 1 piece cue and is about 56 inches long.With a modern tip it plays real well. I would say it would be about as LD as the early LD shafts.
He played with an early predator shaft cue from a friend, and had no trouble with it.
Now his cue may be the exception, and not the norm, but LD shafts are not new, the discovery of of it is.
No matter what the equipment is, there need to be people who learn how to use it and make the most of what they have.
Depending on the tip,an LD shaft can be substantialy effected.But that is another can of worms.

Neil
 
bdcues,

Thanks for describing that shot! I will have to try it with both shafts! I think I will hit Mike up about it too. I expect he will be in Derby City, so I will talk to him then.

As for feel, Me Too!


Thanks!

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
Anybody aiming at the cueball to object ball contact point on a cut shot with english is depending on either a crooked stroke or cueball curve to make the shot. A low deflection shaft will increase their odds by taking a little deflection off so effective curve is more.

If you are aiming in the correct line, a low deflection shaft may or may not help, depending on your preferred style of play using english and the speed and distance of the particular shots.
 
Natural said:
Let me guess, this guy plays golf with wood shafted clubs and a straight bladed putter because it requires skill.

Probably drives a car without power steering or anti-lock brakes too.

More power to you bro, you are the one being left behind. The rest of us embrace technology and use it to our advantage. You should get a cell phone, they are pretty cool :)
Click to expand...

That's nice of you. Be a mature individual and make fun of me, totally missing the point. Why don't you counter what I said with some legitimate knowledge and discuss this issue like an educated person? The point is in where the real answer lies, and that is inside the person. Not the equipment.
 
deadgearplyr said:
That's nice of you. Be a mature individual and make fun of me, totally missing the point. Why don't you counter what I said with some legitimate knowledge and discuss this issue like an educated person? The point is in where the real answer lies, and that is inside the person. Not the equipment.
Click to expand...


Oh i got your point, and it is you who clearly lacks the knowledge or you wouldn't feel the way you do. Anyone that actually puts in the time and effort with an LD shaft can and will see the benefits. You choose not to accept reality and there isn't much I or anyone else can do to help you. If you like playing with a shaft with high deflection, that is fine. However bashing LD shafts and the people who use them is quite immature.

Do yourself a favor: open up your mind, put in a little practice with the new technology. You will be amazed at you learn
 
RBC said:
Dead,

If insult is not your intention, then I don't understand this statement:

"I think if people realized how to stroke the ball correctly, they wouldn't be so interested in finding a 'low deflection' shaft, but a 'quality shaft' made from 'quality wood' by a 'quality maker'."

You actually insulted all the players out there who use LD shafts as well. And I can assure you, many of these are the best players in the world!


Also, I wanted you to know that we don't lie either, even though you obviously think we do:

"I support and love pool and want to help those who also love the game and to help others know the truth."

I understand your intentions, but your delivery method is flawed. You would be better served to focus on yourself and not try to save everyone else.



Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
Click to expand...

I understand that my skill on the keyboard is lacking, and I created this discussion knowing that I may be attacked because of it but I want to stand up for what I believe in, not necessarily save the world. I wanted to see how many of you out there saw things like I do and how many didn't. I was not trying to bash LD shaft users. I am also not trying to make you or anyone else out to be liars. I would appreciate if you could be objective about this instead of just defending yourself and seeing the negative in what I write. I am trying really hard to demonstrate a gentleman-like attitude towards you right now, in spite of the fact I feel you are 'picking' on me.

I see that there are those who don't know how to stroke the ball correctly seeking themselves shortcuts through equipment. Insulting LD shaft users was not my intent and I never said anything about LD shafts being low quality, I think you are being a little too defensive. I'm sure you will sell plenty of shafts to many who love that kind of hit. I'm not one of them and there are many, many people out there who understand how to use deflection to their advantage, not avoid it.

One main point I am trying to make is that deflection is not a bad thing and shouldn't be avoided like everyone seems to do. It is a part of the game that should be learned and mastered and for people who don't know that or don't care to practice and seek the truth, they think they can just buy an LD shaft and all worries are gone. That's my point, get it?

I'm not trying to insult you, Predator, LD shaft users, or anyone else, so stop trying to make me look like the bad guy here. The 'people' I was referring to were people who don't understand how to truly use their equipment in combination with knowledge and instead, seeking an instant cure. I find that to be one of the downfalls of modern day America and wished we could do more to help others find truth in their lives. Many people look for their answers in the wrong places when they should be reflecting inwards. That's my point, it wasn't to insult LD shaft users just to be clear.
 
just throwing in my 2 cents

To the original poster-
I agree with some of your basic sentiment. If you are buying ANYTHING with the intent that it will magically improve your skill ( or life, etc). You ARE buying into hype and are having unrealistic expectations and WILL be disapointed. The problem is NOT with the product or its quality. The problem is with the unrealistic expectation of the buyer.

If I buy a mercedes because I EXPECT it to get me more chicks, and I end up with girls just thinking less of me for being just another pretentious guy who is trying too hard to impress people, does that mean that mercedes makes a bad car? I mean it is obvious from all the hype and marketing out there that it is implied that my life will be better, right?

Watch a beer or soda comercial. I do not know about you, but the last time a drank a xxxxxx beer, I DID NOT go home with a supermodel! I still may prefer one brand over another. I am not fooloish because I like pepsi over coke. I am ONLY foolish if I think that by drinking pepsi, I will magically achieve something that is unrealistic.

Again do not knock the product itself, but the flawed thinking of a consumer who has unrealistic expectaions.

Also, do not assume that everybody who buys thes shafts is doing so with unrealistic expectaions. I like my OB1. It has not made me a world champion, and I do not expect that it ever will. Even of I were to become a champion, it would not be because of a LD shaft, any more than the soda I drink. It DOES give me a feel that I find to my liking. I tried it BEFORE I bought it. I did not make any assumptions based on what an ad or endorsement said. I bought it because I liked it in the real world. I have realistic expectations, and HAVE NOT been disapointed.

How many people buy any brand of cue or shaft, etc based soley on a repuattion? Why are you not going after them? An LD shaft is a pretty small investment, and the demand is great. It would be easy to resell if you change your mind. The cost is right in line with ANY quality shaft. It is not like buying a luxery car that is many times the price of a standard vehicle.

Pool has been around for hundreds of years. It has been around longer than vulcanized rubber. Cushions used to have cloth and all kinds of various other materials stuffed in them. A talented pool player in those times could deal with this. Would you want to, knowing there is something better? The cushions were unreliable, the balls were made of ivory, etc, etc. Are these the playing conditions you would like to have?

You could get used to playing on a table that is unlevel. You could learn exactly how it affects the balls path, and how to account for it, and control it. There will be times that you could even use it to your advantage, does this make it better? OR, GIVEN THE CHOICE, WOULD YOU RATHER CHOOSE A LEVEL TABLE? Would you imply that it is my lack of skill that makes me partial to a level table that provides more reliable results?

The bottom line is - A low deflection shaft has NEVER made someone without any skill a great player. Anyone who believes this is foolish, and so is your assumption that you will find a large number of such people on here.

I am willing to bet that the people on here who defend their choice of using a LD shaft are NOT the ones you are complaining about with uninformed and unrealistic expectations who just blindly are looking for a magic wand for their game. First identify those people and take it up with them.

Jw
 
Last edited:
Royce:
I am wrong that every shot can be made with a LD shaft. Jump shots are much harder, and cannot be made to the same level, with LD shafts as compared to conventional shafts.
Click to expand...

Do you have any idea why?

pj
chgo
 
to deadgearplayer


I understand what you are saying, but I think you should wait until those people ask for your help before offering it to everyone as though they have that problem
 
Natural said:
Oh i got your point, and it is you who clearly lacks the knowledge or you wouldn't feel the way you do. Anyone that actually puts in the time and effort with an LD shaft can and will see the benefits. You choose not to accept reality and there isn't much I or anyone else can do to help you. If you like playing with a shaft with high deflection, that is fine. However bashing LD shafts and the people who use them is quite immature.

Do yourself a favor: open up your mind, put in a little practice with the new technology. You will be amazed at you learn
Click to expand...

I must admit, I am lacking in a great deal of knowledge and am prepared to learn. That is one of the main reasons for me being here is to be enlightened by many of the intelligent individuals that grace this forum. I will just not stand to be made fun of immaturely after I've expressed my beliefs with sincerity.

Just to be clear, I used a 314-2 for a little while. I also played an OB-1 as well. They are well made shafts, but IMO, they lack in feel. There are also some things I just can't do on a pool table with one of those. I never said I was a fan of a 'high-deflection' shaft, as I believe a solid, stiff hitting shaft is good.

I just wanted to see how many of us out there felt the same way I do regarding this issue. It seems that there are some pretty dedicated LD shaft users, and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you truly understand how to play. I am no pro, but I do have skill in all games no matter the equipment, and that is where the emphasis should be placed.

I am in no way bashing those who use LD shafts, just the misconception that deflection is such a terrible thing. In pool, deflection is part of the game. To wish for there to be none, or almost none is ridiculous. I wish some of the people on here who accuse me so unjustly would go back and re-read what I originally posted. I may have referred indirectly, but it has become evident so far those who know what I'm talking about, and those who don't. It is clear to me, just as in real life, who the truly intelligent ones are not just by what is said, but also by what isn't. :wink:
 
Last edited:
pj

While I don't KNOW why, I do have my thoughts.

I think that the jump shot depends on High Squirt, or deflection. The cue ball has to Squirt to get out of the way of the tip that has to follow through or there won't be enough energy to make the ball jump.

What do you think?

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
deadgearplyr said:
I must admit, I am lacking in a great deal of knowledge and am prepared to learn. That is one of the main reasons for me being here is to be enlightened by many of the intelligent individuals that grace this forum. I will just not stand to be made fun of immaturely after I've expressed my beliefs with sincerity.

Just to be clear, I used a 314-2 for a little while. I also played an OB-1 as well. They are well made shafts, but IMO, they lack in feel. There are also some things I just can't do on a pool table with one of those. I never said I was a fan of a 'high-deflection' shaft, as I believe a solid, stiff hitting shaft is good.

I just wanted to see how many of us out there felt the same way I do regarding this issue. It seems that there are some pretty dedicated LD shaft users, and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you truly understand how to play. I am no pro, but I do have skill in all games no matter the equipment.

I am in no way bashing those who use LD shafts, just the misconception that deflection is such a terrible thing. In pool, deflection is part of the game. To wish for there to be none, or almost none is ridiculous. I wish some of the people on here who accuse me so unjustly would go back and re-read what I originally posted. I may have referred indirectly, but it has become evident so far those who know what I'm talking about, and those who don't. It is clear to me, just as in real life, who the truly intelligent ones are not just by what is said, but also by what isn't. :wink:
Click to expand...


I was one of the ones who said I would never use a Predator (all there was at the time) because my shaft played just fine. A few years later, I noticed that not on;y was Predator still around but this low deflection thing really took off. So I did my own research and found someone that was qualified to teach me the pros and cons of LD shafts VS standard shafts. I then chose to spend the time needed to learn how to use one. I play on big tables and snooker tables mostly and as my eyes have gotten worse, so has my game. It is flat out amazing how much simpler certain shots are with a LD shaft once you get used to them. As for feel: try changing the tip, ot matters more than anything else

Sorry for being a smartass, but this discussion gets old and almost everyone who decides to learn about deflection ends up seeing the light. These shafts are not magic wands but they do have unbeleivable benefits when used correctly.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top