Why CTE is silly

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Here's why this is REALLY hard to describe online:

- CTE should be called Center-to-OUTERMOST-Edge because that's what it is on each and every shot. It's never the "edge" you see as if your eyeball were on the CTEL.

- In order to see a new edge, your eyes must come off the CTEL

(Here's where the breakdown occurs)

- The player's perception of balls and their relation to each other in 3D space cannot be diagrammed EASILY online. Cuetable isn't capable of this. For example, the longer the shot, the shorter the distance you come off the CTEL for a shot of a certain angle. As the distance closes in for that certain angle, the distance increases.

So... I'll say the "process" (such as A, B, C) is the same for each shot, but the math is totally different. Everything changes.

Years ago I asked Hal why can't he help me post diagrams of how it works and he said, "Because it can't be done in 2D."

Now, let's say you have 3 shots all within thick/thin gamut. Unless the balls are stacked on top of each other, they will all have a different outermost-edge you must address. The difference in setup is identical; however, your eyes move sliiiightly to see the outermost edge of the shot. Many times, you're talking about such a subtle movement. From that new perspective, you are now looking at a different CB center.

I'm confident Stan's video will cover these topics well. Stan shows Hal a lot of love in that video. I hope the SPF instructors do the same with their Same Aim and give the proper credit where credit is due. I don't care what it's called - Hal is the source.

I'll say this and then I'll go back to eating popcorn and reading this nonsense for entertainment...... Hal is so goddamn smart I half wonder if he's an alien. After YEARS of grinding away at this info to really find out WHY (like the rest of you) this works, I'm just now getting it (with the help of some math friends). I think I have everything down on paper with the exception of distance/outermost-edge relationship (which can't be done on paper).

Maybe after Stan's video comes out we can renew this discussion in a meaningful way. The system 100% works and I also think it's geometrically PERFECT to zero tolerance. Human perception is what makes it imperfect as does friction (both need to be recognized and adjusted for). We prob need a robot to see how smart this guy really is, believe me.

I only hope we overcome our differences and get to the bottom of it TOGETHER before Hal passes. He should be in the HOF for this info.

Well, I'll give you a B+ for seriousness. But what you've said is still jargon-heavy and vague and "mysterious" (can't be done on paper).

I will say that what you're alluding to sounds a lot more complicated that OTHERS have said, about learning it in 15 minutes, etc.

....I may be getting the feeling that the "new approach" of the CTE acolytes will be to offer something SO COMPLEX that nobody will understand it enough to be able to criticize it :D

But if you can't understand something well enough to criticize it, you can't understand it well enough to USE it.

EDIT: Anyhow, I'll take your word that (apparently) CTE cannot currently be EXPLAINED well enough to be critically discussed--even if I can't resist saying that seems a bit implausible to me.
 
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Well, I'll give you a B+ for seriousness. But what you've said is still jargon-heavy and vague and "mysterious" (can't be done on paper).

I will say that what you're alluding to sounds a lot more complicated that OTHERS have said, about learning it in 15 minutes, etc.

....I may be getting the feeling that the "new approach" of the CTE acolytes will be to offer something SO COMPLEX that nobody will understand it enough to be able to criticize it :D

But if you can't understand something well enough to criticize it, you can't understand it well enough to USE it.

You're confusing execution with a "math-proof". You can learn CTE in 15 mins. You can master it in a few months (developing your perception of lines). To work out a proof of "why" the process works - that takes a while. Thy "why" isn't required to play pool - just like you don't need to understand electricity to flip a light switch. I'm not gonna argue. I use cte for every shot and I get there, GetMeThere. :) g'luck with your internet war.
 
Pool instructions and sex are pretty similar in the fact that while you may get a little something over the phone, in person just works better.

I don't know how Stand and Hal teach it or do it, just how Ron V showed me. His 90/90 CTE system is great. For pocketing cut shots and bank shots. I've never shown ANYONE in person who wasn't impressed.


Are you including really really dirty phone sex?

Just slightly more seriously: have you ever seen a first rate magician do close up magic? Because if you have you'd know that that impresses everyone too :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
You can learn CTE in 15 mins.

Then you should be able to explain it in 30 sentences (or less). Better yet, make a 15 minute youtube video--their new upload video time limit is now 15 minutes! Just shoot a relatively close-up video of you teaching to someone in 15 minutes; so we could see whatever the student is seeing, and hear what the student is hearing. (there are no olfactory or gustatory requirements to learn it, right?)

Curiously, there ARE acolytes (like JB) who have TRIED to make videos explaining (or even DEMONSTRATING IT) that come off as....piffle.

See, NOW you've even got me confused whether it's simple or complex!! You (and other CTE darlings) really DO belong in politics. You could promise EVERYTHING, deliver NOTHING, and make it sound like people got exactly what you said they would get :D
 
The player's perception of balls and their relation to each other in 3D space cannot be diagrammed EASILY online. Cuetable isn't capable of this.
This is because they're not related to each other in 3D space. Balls on a pool table are related to each other as 2D discs on a 2D plane - the only way they can interact is when their "equators" collide on the plane 1 1/8" above the table surface. Unless the CB leaves the table surface, any interaction they can possibly have can be fully represented on Cuetable or any other 2D surface.

Why not just accept that CTE's usefulness isn't based in geometric exactness and that it's enough that more people are accepting that CTE works somehow? You don't need to go out on this limb to prove anything.

pj
chgo
 
This is because they're not related to each other in 3D space.
It wouldn't be a complete cte thread if I didn't at least reply to PJ. You know your quote isn't true. Ball sizes change based on distance (although slightly) and distance from offsets change (the closest ball appears to move more than the furthest ball).
Patrick Johnson said:
Why not just accept that CTE's usefulness isn't based in geometric exactness and that it's enough that more people are accepting that CTE works somehow? You don't need to go out on this limb to prove anything.

pj
chgo

We'll always agree to disagree on this :) If it weren't geometrically exact, you couldn't make a ball with it. I refuse to believe everyone using it are super subconscious feel-players. If they were, they wouldn't need CTE to begin with. Carry on, carry on.:thumbup:
 
Well, I'll give you a B+ for seriousness. But what you've said is still jargon-heavy and vague and "mysterious" (can't be done on paper).

I will say that what you're alluding to sounds a lot more complicated that OTHERS have said, about learning it in 15 minutes, etc.

....I may be getting the feeling that the "new approach" of the CTE acolytes will be to offer something SO COMPLEX that nobody will understand it enough to be able to criticize it :D

But if you can't understand something well enough to criticize it, you can't understand it well enough to USE it.

EDIT: Anyhow, I'll take your word that (apparently) CTE cannot currently be EXPLAINED well enough to be critically discussed--even if I can't resist saying that seems a bit implausible to me.

CTE can be explained well enough to be critically discussed. That is the whole premise of your thread.

Where do you get these sayings like "if you can't understand it well enough to criticize it then you can't understand it well enough to use it."

Throughout this thread you call people names and chastise them for not using language properly and yet you continue to make absurd statements like the one above.

Let's turn this absurd one around a little bit and see if it applies to you,

If you can't understand something well enough to use it then can't understand it enough to rightly criticize it.

The fact is that you can be critical of anything. Whether you are right or not is another facet of critique.

In this case you don't know how to apply the thing you are denouncing. So your critique of it and the condescension you show to all those who are proponents is worthless. You opinion is not even subjective because you have no experience with the subject matter.

Seriously, is this what they teach in Berkley? To go on rampaging critiques with not one shred of familiarity with the subject matter?

What you fail to acknowledge is that people continue to have positive results years after meeting Hal, Stan, Dave and others who know these aiming systems. Long after the enabling party is out of the picture. Long after the initial WTF euphoria passes which comes from making those tough shots split the pocket.

There is enough anecdotal evidence piled up that even the battle-hardened opponents see that there must be some reason that the systems work on some level.

That's the middle ground Pat spoke of. There doesn't have to be an either/or here.

As to the idea of "what works". When you see a person playing pool you do not know what they are doing to aim. Most of the time action of approaching the shot and assessing it and then getting down on the shot happens fairly quickly and fluidly. If you and I met casually in the pool room and we decided to gamble then I would bet a million dollars the last thing on your mind would be how I am aiming. What would probably cross your mind is how I could slice a ball down the rail at warp speed with inside english and go three rails across the table for perfect shape and then dog a hanger right behind it.

The point being that pool has a simple scorecard. Make balls, win games, win matches.

A player knows himself well enough to know when he is doing this more or less consistently.

So there is no need to continue the comparisons to placebos and subconscious manipulations.

If however the missing link turns out to be subconscious adjustment to the right line then so what? If the A-B-C instructions get me within one mm of the right aiming line and then my subconscious engages and nudges me over then that's great. The result is the exact same, more shots made, more games won, more matches won.

Because my subconscious obviously wasn't able to fill in when I was using the easily diagrammed Ghost Ball method as my results were inconsistent when using it.

The fact is that someone who claims to be a trained scientist, molecular biologist, ought to refrain from making blanket statements like x-is-silly when they have no practical experience with x. In my uneducated common sense view I tend to think one would want to explore x to be able to make such statements.

Please let us know when you have actually tried CTE - I would expect that once you have learned it you can define it along with any limitations which may exist.

Until then please forgive me for not taking you seriously.

Unsubscribing to this thread.

Bye y'all.
 
This is because they're not related to each other in 3D space. Balls on a pool table are related to each other as 2D discs on a 2D plane - the only way they can interact is when their "equators" collide on the plane 1 1/8" above the table surface. Unless the CB leaves the table surface, any interaction they can possibly have can be fully represented on Cuetable or any other 2D surface.

Why not just accept that CTE's usefulness isn't based in geometric exactness and that it's enough that more people are accepting that CTE works somehow? You don't need to go out on this limb to prove anything.

pj
chgo

You and Dr. Dave should hook up with me at Valley Forge. Let's figure out why it works. I'll let you guys setup whatever shots you want. I'll show you my material and explain the execution. Forget these threads. They go nowhere.

In fact, GetMeThere, Dr. Dave, Bob Jewett and everyone else can debate this on a table. Watch the technique and discuss as adults.
 
Me:
[pool balls are] not related to each other in 3D space.
Spidey:
You know your quote isn't true.
I know that you don't know it's true. What you don't know about this stuff is monumental.

Ball sizes change based on distance
Yes, I'm familiar with perspective. I even know it's a 2D effect.

If it weren't geometrically exact, you couldn't make a ball with it.
Yes, I'm also familiar with your misunderstanding of CTE. It's all the same misunderstanding.

pj
chgo
 
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Are you including really really dirty phone sex?

Just slightly more seriously: have you ever seen a first rate magician do close up magic? Because if you have you'd know that that impresses everyone too :-)

Lou Figueroa

And when the first rate magician reveals the trick then the amateurs take it and some get it and some don't. But the ones who get it can practice it until it becomes second nature for them as well.

Good comparison.

How many people do you know who could draw their cue ball two table lengths without instruction?

To the person who can't do it it seems like magic. To the person who can it's routine.

Hal Houle spent decades refining his approach to aiming. He has discovered or invented many different ways to get to the same line that a perfect ghost ball implementation provides.

He is the master magician who has been kind enough to reveal his tricks. People like me are the amateurs who only paid attention long enough to be amazed with the little extra ability we gained and to be annoying to people like you with a constant chattering about the existence of a great new world of aiming beyond ghost ball.

People like Dave, Randy, Stan and others have taken it further to a level of understanding that makes them junior magicians.

As the saying goes, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". I agree with this to include any sufficiently advanced technique.

Only in pool as opposed to sleight-of-hand it's not an illusion. The balls going in the holes more often and from tougher positions is the benefit.
 
JB,

Even though I refuse to abuse myself by actually READING your entire post...I agree with you: I don't know what CTE is. I certainly could never know from your couple of youtube videos :D

The best compilation of what CTE MIGHT BE that I could find was on Dr.Dave's site. And he has multiple variations! It seems that CTE is what the person you're currently speaking with SAYS it is--which could change tomorrow.

Even so, when MANY people say something is just GREAT, but can't explain it--and when they try, they come out with a range of variations, well....in my experience....bullshit is afoot somewhere :D
 
I'd be glad to hook up any time we're in the same vicinity, but (I know you don't understand why) that won't help us figure out how CTE works.

pj
chgo

If you and I ever met and weren't disturbed - we'd come out on the same page....whatever that page was. I'm pretty sure.
 
You and Dr. Dave should hook up with me at Valley Forge. Let's figure out why it works. I'll let you guys setup whatever shots you want. I'll show you my material and explain the execution. Forget these threads. They go nowhere.

In fact, GetMeThere, Dr. Dave, Bob Jewett and everyone else can debate this on a table. Watch the technique and discuss as adults.

An extremely fair and generous offer. I applaud you for making it. I'll trust Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett to report on it fully and accurately--I won't be availing myself of the opportunity.

But I'll say quite candidly: I hope you're RIGHT, and it's the greatest thing since sliced bread--I mean that with 100% sincerity. Who doesn't want a simple and easy, direct aiming system that tells you exactly where to aim every time? Unfortunately, a lot of HARD and SERIOUS experience makes me pretty sure you won't be right.

And I don't forget what Lou Figueroa posted: He received a gracious call from Hal Houle to explain his system--and came away unimpressed. IMO Lou is a very discerning guy...
 
An extremely fair and generous offer. I applaud you for making it. I'll trust Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett to report on it fully and accurately--I won't be availing myself of the opportunity.

But I'll say quite candidly: I hope you're RIGHT, and it's the greatest thing since sliced bread--I mean that with 100% sincerity. Who doesn't want a simple and easy, direct aiming system that tells you exactly where to aim every time? Unfortunately, a lot of HARD and SERIOUS experience makes me pretty sure you won't be right.

And I don't forget what Lou Figueroa posted: He received a gracious call from Hal Houle to explain his system--and came away unimpressed. IMO Lou is a very discerning guy...

Hal never tells anyone anything but "move the cue to the side and pivot to center" until about the 20th call and visit--- when he gets to REALLY know you. I know for a fact he's told some people complete bunk info just to get them off the phone.
 
Hal never tells anyone anything but "move the cue to the side and pivot to center" until about the 20th call and visit--- when he gets to REALLY know you. I know for a fact he's told some people complete bunk info just to get them off the phone.

Uh-oh. Confusion arises again.

1) I got the impression from Lou's post that Hal called HIM. Maybe I'm wrong.

2) What happened to the saintly and jolly Hal in this version of the story? I thought he was just a WONDERFUL human being who wanted to share and spread the fruits of his labor and the glory of CTE far and wide.

3) What happened to the 15 minute rule? Hal couldn't get him off the phone quickly by just telling him the actual system?

See, I thought I made quite a conciliatory post toward you and your understanding of CTE in my last post. Then you fire back with your WHOLLY IMAGINED version of the content and attitudes of Lou and Hal's phone conversation. You know what that is? That's EMOTIONAL DEFENSE of CTE--at the DROP of a hat; at the drop of an almost throw-away comment about Lou's post.

That "CTE guys" only ever come back with EMOTIONAL responses/reactions, and NEVER with explicit/rational ones is like a blaring red siren to me, wailing "CTE IS BUNK" over and over.
 
Uh-oh. Confusion arises again.

1) I got the impression from Lou's post that Hal called HIM. Maybe I'm wrong.

2) What happened to the saintly and jolly Hal in this version of the story? I thought he was just a WONDERFUL human being who wanted to share and spread the fruits of his labor and the glory of CTE far and wide.

3) What happened to the 15 minute rule? Hal couldn't get him off the phone quickly by just telling him the actual system?

See, I thought I made quite a conciliatory post toward you and your understanding of CTE in my last post. Then you fire back with your WHOLLY IMAGINED version of the content and attitudes of Lou and Hal's phone conversation. You know what that is? That's EMOTIONAL DEFENSE of CTE--at the DROP of a hat; at the drop of an almost throw-away comment about Lou's post.

That "CTE guys" only ever come back with EMOTIONAL responses/reactions, and NEVER with explicit/rational ones is like a blaring red siren to me, wailing "CTE IS BUNK" over and over.

I stand by that post - it's 100% fact. Hal was the johnny appleseed of promoting pool and cte. However, he let you play with a half-deck for a while. I'm sure Stan and others would say the same thing. That's not a knock towards Hal, I think. He used to like to see someone develop as a player - and not by hand holding.

Sorry you think my post was emotional. I haven't said one emotional thing yet in this thread. You're the one caps-locking people to death. You must be an alpha-male on beta-blockers because you appear to be high strung. Relax :)
 
Guys, add to the conver sation in a constructive manner or stay out.


Ok...You know people talk like CTE is some sort of Religion....I did some research and this is what I found out.

One day God called Hal to the top of the mountain and he gave him the first part of his new system of pool aiming laws for his people - The Center To Edge method. (CTE summarized the absolutes of spiritual and moral shot makeing that God intended for his people.)

God continued to give direction to his people through Hal, including the civil and ceremonial laws for controlling their CB. Eventually God called Hal to the mountain for 40 days and 40 nights. During this time he gave him instructions for the tabernacle and the CTE instructions. When God finished speaking to Hal on Mount Ivory Rock, he gave him two tablets of stone inscribed by the very finger of God. They contained the CTE instructions.

Meanwhile, the people of the pool world had become impatient while waiting for Hal to return with the instructions from God. Hal had been gone for so long that the people gave up on him and begged Stan to make them Pro-1 so they could worship. So Stan collected offerings of gold from all the people and made a instruction video in the form of Pro-1. Then they held a festival and bowed down to worship their idol. So quickly they had fallen into the idolatry they were accustomed to in the pool world and disobeyed God's CTE instructions.

When Hal came down from the mountain with the tablets of stone, his anger burned when he saw the people given over to idolatry. He threw down the two tablets, smashing them to pieces at the foot of the mountain.

Now you all know why there is not complete written instructions for CTE;)
 
Sorry you think my post was emotional. I haven't said one emotional thing yet in this thread. You're the one caps-locking people to death. You must be an alpha-male on beta-blockers because you appear to be high strung. Relax :)

To presume you know about the content of someone else's phone call--of who knows how many years ago--is so irrational that it can only arise from emotion. And when you say you "stand by" your post 100% you seem to completely forget the point about Hal seemingly calling Lou. Would you still stand by your post if you found out that was the case?

Oh, one more thing: a beta blocker would tend to LESSEN what (I'm sure) you're picturing when you invoke the "alpha male." An alpha male on beta blockers would be LESS high-strung (with lower heart rate and blood pressure). In fact, archers and pistol shooters have tried to use beta blockers in competition--only to be blocked by the Olympic committee. They reduce anxiety and hand-tremor. They're just the thing for any sort of "aiming" competition ;)

EDIT: I better add here for anyone getting any bright ideas: You can quite easily KILL yourself with beta-blockers. An overdose (which wouldn't be much) would slow your heart so much that you'd risk cardiac arrythmia.
 
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