Why do cue makers do this

T

Travis Niklich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why do cue makers post links and prices for materials and supplies for customers to check out on the web site. A cue is much more than the sum of the parts. I have had customers send material for cues in the past ( wood & ivory ) and will not do it any more. If you want to talk about things like that why not do it in a PM or private chat? When you commission a painting does the artist say the canvas, paint , brushes and other supplies are $40 so I will do it for $50-60 I don't think so or they will not be in business long. As a cue maker you should get paid for what you know and you ideas as well as supplies and machinery. I don't think most well know cue makers spent 50-150,000 dollars an tools to make 10-20% over cost to make a cue. I have talked to almost every big name cue maker you could name and never once have I heard them tell someone how much they pay for wood or ivory. If a cue maker buys large amounts of wood or has ivory he bought 30 years ago should he do it cheaper than any one else. I know with the web it is not hard to find what things cost but come on I just had a AC unit put in and I did not ask to see the invoice or ask if I could supply my own AC for them to install that is ridiculous. I have had a set price list for years and that works best for me. I don't want to offend any one just like to know why some do this I have no problem if some one ask how much an ivory joint is and you say a price but why tell them what it cost you?
 
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I understand but with the Internet age the public us much smarter then before. You still have your price list no matter what. Take it or leave it. Most know the cost for a shop is high. It's a factory. Pol will complain no matter what
 
Let's see, I just had the machine shop do a job for me, there materials, plus 150 percent mark up on material plus 75 an hour, I didn't complain because:
1-It's their business
2-I couldn't do it.
3-They did what I wanted.
4-I waited til they had time to do it.
5-They know nothing about this industry, so what I design doesn't get sold to a whore who doesn't care about the future of this industry.
6-They do great work and don't ask what I wanted it built for.
7-I pay them to do a job,
8-It's not an option to tell them how to do it or what to charge, They don't tell me how there doing it, It's none of my business as far as their concerned.
9-Quality is no accident.
10-Confidentiality earns Loyalty.
Am I getting warm?
 
I think its great that cuemakers post supply links and great deals that are intended for other cuemakers.Maybe this forum should be locked out for "cuemakers only"????Face it,you can never have to many resources.
 
cue makers

Mike Webb asked for a cue maker only forum before and was turned down. I'm not trying to say that cue makers should not share info or where to get a good deal on supplies but does every person with a computer need to see it? I also don't care if a cue maker cuts there price or gives a guy a break but why do it in public forum you only hurt yourself if you put a cue up for sale for $1000 and then drop the price to $600 guess what it is now a $600 dollar cue from now on. I have seen it happen a lot at trade shows a cue maker gets known for dropping his price on Sunday and next thing you know no one will buy a cue till Sunday. A lot of what drives what a cue maker can charge is based on the secondary market that is why guys like Gina, Joss West and South West to name a few have great a rep in the bizz because don't whore them self out. I have a friend here that has a large pool hall and quit selling McDermott cues because they would sell to him at say 50% off then a Internet co. would sell the cues for 30-40% of to every one a $500 cue that sells for $350 is a $350 cue and my friend should get his discount based on that price not the jacked up retail price that no one gets.
 
Materials, be it wood or whatever, cost what they cost. Those prices are available to just about anyone who's willing to pay it. I get paid for what I AM ABLE to do with those mtrls., not just what they cost. Irish linen or leather wraps are a perfect example. Mtrl. costs are almost nil. It's the technique and expertise involved that sets the price for the finished product. Mtrls. costs are relatively inexpensive. I, on the other-hand, am not.
 
str8shooter said:
I think its great that cuemakers post supply links and great deals that are intended for other cuemakers.Maybe this forum should be locked out for "cuemakers only"????Face it,you can never have to many resources.
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This is a great idea, but would be hard to do for a public forum. Our International Cuemakers Association Forum does lock out all non members. This AZ forum was supposed to be the "Ask The Cuemaker" questions forum. But many want to turn it into "Let's Knock the Cuemakers" forum. Leonard Bludworth's original intent for this forum was for people to be able to ask experienced cuemakers questions, so they could further their own skills or gain understanding about what goes into a quality cue. It sure would be nice if it would get back to that.
 
cue makers

Hi Chris I hope people don't think I'm bashing cue makers I would like to see us stop bashing each other that is my point. It really POs me when I see some one who is new to cue making come one here and say that well established cue makers charge to much they have proven them self over and over again. It is usually these great cue makers that are the best investment in the long term. Personally I think the goal for a cue maker should be to be the absolute best cue maker he can be. When I started there was not a lot of info available like today and I would have loved to been able to ask some of the better cue makers how to do things on a forum like this it just seams like a lot of cue makers have left because they get bashed by some one that has been at this a short amount of time. My comparison to a painter is accurate and I don't think you would get a well know painter to do a painting at even 200% of what the material cost. If cue making was not an art for there would be no need for the exotic woods, ivory, silver, gold, and every thing else that makes a custom cue so great.
 
The fact that a person is informed on raw material prices does not mean that the person has a grasp on reality. I'm an auto mechanic and every so often we run into this same sort of problem

"but I can buy ------ on the internet, here, there, or at the junkyard for less. Why do you charge so much?"

I ask them if they expect to get payed at the end of the week for working. When they say yes I reply, so do I. If they want to screw around in their driveway trying to guess what part is bad it makes no difference to me. The work done in my shop is done to pay the shops bills and everyone's wages. I am not a charity organization.

It should be obvious that a cuemaker expects to (and has every right to) make a profit. People that can't understand the value of skilled labor are a waste of time.

The reality is skilled labor has value.

A pile of wood and metal without tools, equipment and knowledge is just a pile of wood and metal. The value of the materials has zero bearing on the value of the labor.
 
Slight tangent

Travis Niklich said:
Hi Chris I hope people don't think I'm bashing cue makers I would like to see us stop bashing each other that is my point. It really POs me when I see some one who is new to cue making come one here and say that well established cue makers charge to much they have proven them self over and over again. It is usually these great cue makers that are the best investment in the long term. Personally I think the goal for a cue maker should be to be the absolute best cue maker he can be. When I started there was not a lot of info available like today and I would have loved to been able to ask some of the better cue makers how to do things on a forum like this it just seams like a lot of cue makers have left because they get bashed by some one that has been at this a short amount of time. My comparison to a painter is accurate and I don't think you would get a well know painter to do a painting at even 200% of what the material cost. If cue making was not an art for there would be no need for the exotic woods, ivory, silver, gold, and every thing else that makes a custom cue so great.
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I too have been completely appalled by some of the childish exchanges that I have read on here lately, and I try not to get involved. But let's not point the blame squarely at the newer cue makers. Some of them are to blame, yes, but the knocks have also been coming from non-cue makers as well as established members here as well. Regardless, we all need to realize that there are real people on the other side of these computer screens, and we should give each other the same respect as if we were speaking face to face. Now stepping down from soap box . . .

Chris is right. This is a public forum, and fortunately or unfortunately, all members are allowed to read and post here. If a more restricted environment is desired, we can all join the ICA and use their cue maker's forum. But guess what . . . you don't have to be a cue maker to read and post there either. You just have to pay the yearly membership fees and you now have access. I also agree with KJ, the cost of materials is clearly only one component that determines the price of the cue. We've all gotten cars worked on where the cost of the labor to install the part exceeds the cost of the part itself, sometimes by a large margin. Labor cost is a large contributor, and we also have shop costs and then, if we're lucky, there can be a supply/demand factor in the pricing as well. I wouldn't worry much about the public discovering that cocobolo, though exotic, isn't very expensive at all. I'm still not going to sell a cocobolo cue for $50. ;)

Mr H
 
I don't read every thread, but I think more of the bashing of cue makers tends to come from non cue makers. Its funny how everybody's an expert on how something should be done but they have never done it themselves.

As for costs of materials, it's no secret what things cost. Anybody with 5 minutes to spare should be able to get a pretty good idea what the cost of materials are to build a cue. That's not what they're paying for. If somebody doesn't like my prices, they don't have to pay them.

In any market, there will always be somebody charging less and saying the people charging the high prices are gouging. You can't worry about them. The reason they're not selling their product for top dollar is because they can't. If your cues are selling, they are either priced right or too low.
 
cue makers

Hi Tony
I agree with what you said I just get PO when I read some of the things on here like the guys that complain about what a bottle of water, beer or food cost at the local pool hall but then are pissed when it shuts down. My friend here has a place that is like 15,000 sq ft his rent has to be like $30,000 a month alone. I just think all cue makers and forum member should be a little more respectful of each other. I just think people on here have closed a lot of doors with more experienced cue makers on here by not being respectful of the cue makers who lead the way for them to do what they do. I also hear some say the older generation of cue makers do not want to help but I think that is far from the truth I have experience with Tim Scruggs, Bill Schick, Barry Szamboti, Ron Haley, Andy Gilbert and just about any one else you could name and they have all treated me as good as gold even sent customers my way. But when people come on this forum and say bad things about how cue makers wont help them you have to ask why.
 
Travis Niklich said:
Why do cue makers post links and prices for materials and supplies for customers to check out on the web site. A cue is much more than the sum of the parts. I have had customers send material for cues in the past ( wood & ivory ) and will not do it any more. If you want to talk about things like that why not do it in a PM or private chat? When you commission a painting does the artist say the canvas, paint , brushes and other supplies are $40 so I will do it for $50-60 I don't think so or they will not be in business long. As a cue maker you should get paid for what you know and you ideas as well as supplies and machinery. I don't think most well know cue makers spent 50-150,000 dollars an tools to make 10-20% over cost to make a cue. I have talked to almost every big name cue maker you could name and never once have I heard them tell someone how much they pay for wood or ivory. If a cue maker buys large amounts of wood or has ivory he bought 30 years ago should he do it cheaper than any one else. I know with the web it is not hard to find what things cost but come on I just had a AC unit put in and I did not ask to see the invoice or ask if I could supply my own AC for them to install that is ridiculous. I have had a set price list for years and that works best for me. I don't want to offend any one just like to know why some do this I have no problem if some one ask how much an ivory joint is and you say a price but why tell them what it cost you?
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I personally think it's an honest approach, and the cuemaker wants the public and/or potential customer to get a real feel for how much supplies actually cost... usually these are cuemaker's who are charging lower prices than the "art collector" ones and are trying to make a point !

After all you can give 10 cuemakers from both ends of the spectrum the same exact parts and you will have 10 different cues that hit 10 different ways and 10 totally different prices when you done and yet it's all the same ingredients just assembled in different ways and this apparently justifies a 500% markup with some of these self righteous elitist cuemakers who think their name should be casted in 14k gold with halogen lights aimed at it 24-7...

Quality work is quality work !!! there is no compromise....

Overhead is overhead !!!! one does not require a 250,000.00 shop to build a great custom cue.. this is personal preference and an ego trip to impress customers....

In my opinion it's all about customer service and giving your best work at a REASONABLE price and allowing EVERYONE to be able to afford your blood, sweat and tears and not just the privileged few !!!

Alot of your elitist cuemaker do NOT like me at all.. and that's fine becasue I tell it like it is.... this is a wide open market and plenty of room for EVERYONE ! besides, it's becasue of outrageous art collector cue prices that give me a valid stance in the cuemaking market and have generated a vast customer base for "PLAYERS" to acquire a optimum "tool" without having to take out a loan to afford it "

It's about volume sales to me and are not trying to make a mortgage payment off of a single customer for a piece of wood with a leather tip that violently drives a phenolic ball into a pocket over and over again....

Yes my cues look good but they play even better becasue it's built and geared up to play EXACTLY to the CUSTOMER"S specifications !!

My custom-fitted cues start at 350.00 !!! yes thats cheap but when you are getting high quality and exactly what you want for atleast a 3rd of the price and not compromising quality or craftsmanship then that only makes sense and I'm trying to restore a little faith and realism back into this industry and prove to the public that they don't have to spend a 1000.00+ from a custom cuemaker just to buy quality and performance !

I'm a player before anything else and I love this industry and have dedicated my life to it and will be building cues for a long long time... I just want to give back a little bit of the reward this game has blessed me with in the last 21yrs. to my customers.....

In closing... customers expect you to make a profit and to charge a little more for materials and part due to business costs... but there is a huge difference between a modest percentage and just plain greed because you can and you have felt out the customer and can get away with gouging him/her for parts and materials and labor !



Very Sincerely, Eddie Wheat
 
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Travis Niklich said:
Hi Tony
I agree with what you said I just get PO when I read some of the things on here like the guys that complain about what a bottle of water, beer or food cost at the local pool hall but then are pissed when it shuts down. My friend here has a place that is like 15,000 sq ft his rent has to be like $30,000 a month alone. I just think all cue makers and forum member should be a little more respectful of each other. I just think people on here have closed a lot of doors with more experienced cue makers on here by not being respectful of the cue makers who lead the way for them to do what they do. I also hear some say the older generation of cue makers do not want to help but I think that is far from the truth I have experience with Tim Scruggs, Bill Schick, Barry Szamboti, Ron Haley, Andy Gilbert and just about any one else you could name and they have all treated me as good as gold even sent customers my way. But when people come on this forum and say bad things about how cue makers wont help them you have to ask why.
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Travis.....I think because the original intention of this section was as a place where cue makers could network with one another, is why the information is often forthcoming.

There are a few of us on AZ that gravitate here because we happen to have a keen interest in what all is involved in the cue making process...at least that is why I continue to show here. I have learned tons here...with regards to not only the different types of construction techniques, but what wood is better suited than others. Not to mention, do's and don'ts when dealing with a cue maker....all great stuff!!

Unfortunately...there are those who will take this info, and use it to try to 'bargain' themselves into a cue. They are forever forgetting to take into account not only the labor end of things, but the cost in overhead as well.....machinery, finishing booths, stock that must sit idle for long periods of time to season properly, the occasional piece of wood that moves mid-build, and general upkeep. They only see the bottom line in the actual materials costs.

Sadly...there will always be this type of potential 'customer'. They lack an appreciation for the entire process itself. All you can really do in these cases is to respectfully decline the order, and move on...there will be another order to replace that one.

The problem itself...is likely to get worse before it gets better, at least until there is some kind of turnaround in this sluggish economy. People are going to continue to bottom dollar cues, as well as their local pool halls...trying to save a penny everywhere they can.

Lisa <==== not a cue maker, but has a tremendous amount of respect for those who do what they do well. :D
 
MoonshineMattK said:
The fact that a person is informed on raw material prices does not mean that the person has a grasp on reality. I'm an auto mechanic and every so often we run into this same sort of problem

"but I can buy ------ on the internet, here, there, or at the junkyard for less. Why do you charge so much?"

I ask them if they expect to get payed at the end of the week for working. When they say yes I reply, so do I. If they want to screw around in their driveway trying to guess what part is bad it makes no difference to me. The work done in my shop is done to pay the shops bills and everyone's wages. I am not a charity organization.

It should be obvious that a cuemaker expects to (and has every right to) make a profit. People that can't understand the value of skilled labor are a waste of time.

The reality is skilled labor has value.

A pile of wood and metal without tools, equipment and knowledge is just a pile of wood and metal. The value of the materials has zero bearing on the value of the labor.
Click to expand...
With this in mind I'm looking forward to what watchez comes up with...
 
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