Why do you want an improvement in the world of pool?

GideonF said:
Watching professional pool players gives me joy. Seeing the game that I love played to perfection is a beautiful thing. I would like it if those who give me the pleasure of watching their skill were able to make a decent living doing so.
And, if professionals were able to a make a decent living at it, more could concentrate on the game and the overall skill level might go up.
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I do not begrudge the pro pool player his due. If they can make more money, more power to them.
You're mistaken, however, if you believe that an increase in the money made by a professional is proportional to the skill level of ordinary players. If Frost, for instance, makes an extra ten grand next year playing One Pocket, it doesn't mean that I'll play the game any better than I do. :)
 
vjmehra said:
With all due respect perhaps you're taking what I said as a criticism, which wasn't intended, I'm not trying to belittle anyone, just trying to take a step back and view things from the casual observer.

I am by no means a good player, I occasionally play socially with friends of a similar level, however the first time I picked up a pool cue I managed to pot a few balls, I've never met anyone that couldn't do that...I'd be stunned if you were any different (if you think back are you honestly saying you couldn't pot even a few balls on your first attempt)?

My point is that to the casual player it is a very easy game, especially (and thats why I stressed it may be more of a British thing) when you compare to snooker or even English pool. The tables may only be 7 foot, but the pockets are tiny and for the casual player its much harder to pot a ball than a 9 foot table with 5.25 inch pockets!

Again I'm keen to stress, I fully appreciate pool is an incredibly tough game to be competitive at, especially at the top level, I'm merely stating that in order to improve its credibility, the pool community needs to address multiple issues. A key one, in my opinion is that the game is fundamentally too easy (to the casual viewer) and changing the equipment could solve that problem.

Again I stress, far more people here in the UK play snooker than US pool, yet it is a much harder game (in terms of simply potting a ball, I'm not trying to get into a snooker v pool debate), so I'm not of the view that a slightly tougher pool table wouldn't put people off, as I mentioned previously, I'd like to see different pool disciplines commit to specific table sizes/styles.
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I admit that I could be a rare case. My first experience at a pool table was playing 8-ball with a few friends. If we shot at 50 balls, we might have pocketed 10 or 15 of them. There was way more missing than potting. Perhaps that is what you are interpreting as easy, but my feeling in those days was that potting balls was hard as hell...running a rack wasn't even a remote possibility for us. That's the experience that most of my friends and family have whenever I go play pool with them today. I had a couple friends over to play recently and it took them 30 minutes to finish a game of 8-ball just because neither of them could make a shot.
 
s0lidz said:
I admit that I could be a rare case. My first experience at a pool table was playing 8-ball with a few friends. If we shot at 50 balls, we might have pocketed 10 or 15 of them. There was way more missing than potting. Perhaps that is what you are interpreting as easy, but my feeling in those days was that potting balls was hard as hell...running a rack wasn't even a remote possibility for us. That's the experience that most of my friends and family have whenever I go play pool with them today. I had a couple friends over to play recently and it took them 30 minutes to finish a game of 8-ball just because neither of them could make a shot.
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Not totally dissimilar actually, I guess with 12 foot snooker tables more common over here, as a complete beginner I was probably delighted with 10/100 shots so 10/50 seems very easy by comparison :-)

But yes you are correct, my experience is essentially the same as yours, I'm just interpreting that as easy (again I stress for the casual player, I make the assumption casual players wouldn't necessarily appreciate tactical play and would simply assume if they could make 1/5 on their first attempt with any degree of practice they'd find the game fairly simple).
 
vjmehra said:
Not totally dissimilar actually, I guess with 12 foot snooker tables more common over here, as a complete beginner I was probably delighted with 10/100 shots so 10/50 seems very easy by comparison :-)

But yes you are correct, my experience is essentially the same as yours, I'm just interpreting that as easy (again I stress for the casual player, I make the assumption casual players wouldn't necessarily appreciate tactical play and would simply assume if they could make 1/5 on their first attempt with any degree of practice they'd find the game fairly simple).
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Fair enough. I definitely agree that there is an under--appreciation for the level of skill involved. I just think that even if the average person did understand, it would still be tough for pool to compete with the juggernauts in American sports....football, baseball, basketball, etc. Pool just isn't as exciting as those others and it takes a true pool player to get enjoyment out of a long pool match. As a spectator sport it just has too much competition in the US. That's my feeling on the subject.
 
s0lidz said:
Fair enough. I definitely agree that there is an under--appreciation for the level of skill involved. I just think that even if the average person did understand, it would still be tough for pool to compete with the juggernauts in American sports....football, baseball, basketball, etc. Pool just isn't as exciting as those others and it takes a true pool player to get enjoyment out of a long pool match. As a spectator sport it just has too much competition in the US. That's my feeling on the subject.
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Look at what's happening with chess. It's coming back as a spectator activity. It's slow, but there are decades of damage to undo. They now have promoters and backers that get it and have found ways to make it entertaining AND get a new generation of children involved.

And there's probably more gambling in chess than there is in pool. It's just done a lot more respectfully.
 
Why I want an improvement in our game is because it's becoming less and less watchable.

The single biggest change needed is having a neutral racker. Even if it's not done in the early rounds, have one once any major event gets down to eight players. Second, no major event should be played without a shot clock in the late rounds. In fairness, you do get this at Derby City, now the best event on the American pool calendar by a country mile.

Only Matchroom seems to fully understand that having a neutral racker and a shot clock makes any production look more professional and keeps an event moving.
 
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s0lidz said:
Fair enough. I definitely agree that there is an under--appreciation for the level of skill involved. I just think that even if the average person did understand, it would still be tough for pool to compete with the juggernauts in American sports....football, baseball, basketball, etc. Pool just isn't as exciting as those others and it takes a true pool player to get enjoyment out of a long pool match. As a spectator sport it just has too much competition in the US. That's my feeling on the subject.
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I wonder if the problem is quite US centric, if you look at snooker it feels like it's growing in Asia, Europe and maybe even the UK still, yet we also have a ton of other competing sports.

I think you have room in the US sporting calendar, look at bowling, the PBA seems to offer a pretty good product, not sure how large the fan base is, but it seems well marketed and professional.

Personally I feel flagship World Championships are the key and a focus on the disciplines I mentioned earlier, rather than trying to market 100 different games. If you have a globally recognised World Champion I think it does wonders for a sport, look at Ronnie O'Sullivan!
 
vjmehra said:
Not totally dissimilar actually, I guess with 12 foot snooker tables more common over here, as a complete beginner I was probably delighted with 10/100 shots so 10/50 seems very easy by comparison :-)

But yes you are correct, my experience is essentially the same as yours, I'm just interpreting that as easy (again I stress for the casual player, I make the assumption casual players wouldn't necessarily appreciate tactical play and would simply assume if they could make 1/5 on their first attempt with any degree of practice they'd find the game fairly simple).
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It's not anywhere close to easy - even without an opponent playing back at ya(safes)

Everybody that plays golf gets the ball in the hole eventually, and it's not even close to 5 or 10 times more shots/ball that you guys claim for pool "10/100, 10/50"That would be equal to shooting a 720 or 360 in 18 holes:eek: AND NOBODY CLAIMS GOLF IS EASY!

Everybody hits some pins in bowling, guess thats easy too?

I'd say pool is probably the hardest game to learn. The problem is that pros make it look "easy" most people don't understand playing position, they just think the ball got there somehow.....luck perhaps?
Jason
 
jasonlaus said:
It's not anywhere close to easy - even without an opponent playing back at ya(safes)

Everybody that plays golf gets the ball in the hole eventually, and it's not even close to 5 or 10 times more shots/ball that you guys claim for pool "10/100, 10/50"That would be equal to shooting a 720 or 360 in 18 holes:eek: AND NOBODY CLAIMS GOLF IS EASY!

Everybody hits some pins in bowling, guess thats easy too?

I'd say pool is probably the hardest game to learn. The problem is that pros make it look "easy" most people don't understand playing position, they just think the ball got there somehow.....luck perhaps?
Jason
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Given the state of pool currently, do you not think perhaps that my interpretation may be closer to what people think than yours?

Again to re-iterate as I've said multiple times, I said the perception is that pool is easy...that said fundamentally I'd say pool is far easier than golf (by which I mean skills required to get round a course or play a set on your own). Both become difficult in a competitive situation.

So to clarify again I'm not saying it is easy to be a pro pool player...that may be harder than golf in reality due to the far lower earning opportunities, I'm saying there is a perception pool is easy due to the fundamentals of the game.

The tactics and nuances are lost on the casual player and if they continue to be ignored they won't care whether experienced players think it's a tough game or not, they will simply view it as a pub/bar game and nothing more.
 
vjmehra said:
Given the state of pool currently, do you not think perhaps that my interpretation may be closer to what people think than yours?

Again to re-iterate as I've said multiple times, I said the perception is that pool is easy...that said fundamentally I'd say pool is far easier than golf (by which I mean skills required to get round a course or play a set on your own). Both become difficult in a competitive situation.

So to clarify again I'm not saying it is easy to be a pro pool player...that may be harder than golf in reality due to the far lower earning opportunities, I'm saying there is a perception pool is easy due to the fundamentals of the game.

The tactics and nuances are lost on the casual player and if they continue to be ignored they won't care whether experienced players think it's a tough game or not, they will simply view it as a pub/bar game and nothing more.
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I'd say you are wrong......and right:thumbup:
Jason
 
I find it sad that a professional can't make a living out of this. It requires the same level of dedication or even more than any other sports.
 
Tramp Steamer said:
I do not begrudge the pro pool player his due. If they can make more money, more power to them.
You're mistaken, however, if you believe that an increase in the money made by a professional is proportional to the skill level of ordinary players. If Frost, for instance, makes an extra ten grand next year playing One Pocket, it doesn't mean that I'll play the game any better than I do. :)
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Tramp,

My reply was less clear than it could have been. I believe that an increase in money at the pro level will increase the level of play at the pro level, as more players will be able to focus entirely on pool, afford to retain coaches etc.
 
GideonF said:
Tramp,

My reply was less clear than it could have been. I believe that an increase in money at the pro level will increase the level of play at the pro level, as more players will be able to focus entirely on pool, afford to retain coaches etc.
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Yes, indeed. I agree. A trickle up economy in the pool world.
I'll be honest with you Gideon, we hobbyist pool players should be more concerned with our own fate than that of the pros. They live in their world and we in ours. Other than the entertainment they provide we have little in common, save for the equipment.
Pool halls, pool rooms, and even sports bars and grills are closing at an alarming rate, all around the country. In addition, fewer and fewer youngsters are participating in the cue sports, these days, ultimately impacting the overall growth in player numbers.
I wouldn't have said this a couple of years ago, but our future lies in the leagues. Leagues generate money at the local level, and many league players are already adults when they first start. :smile:
 
I'd like to see pool and cue sports in general become more accessible to kids, like other school sports. Cue sports have many practical applications of mathematics and science, such as geometry, physics, and even astronomy. Many life lessons can be learned on a pool table too. Cue sports probably won't ever become as popular as others, because cue sports do require a bit more knowledge, skills and time to master than many others that are currently mainstream. It is a sport or activity usually drawn to those of a different caliber than the typical. And that's quite alright, as it is those that tend to elevate by giving themselves to the sport and not just taking the sport for themselves. I look at other pro sports, and while those participants are making more money than ever, I don't see a direct correlation to improvement in those sports. In fact, I think there is a very valid argument that money has actually detracted from competition because the money becomes more important than the game itself. That's why sports change rules for the sake of television, etc. It's more about revenue than it is about pure competition.

Getting people interested and exposed at an earlier age and increasing accessibility would enable and help drive further changes that people would like such as improved competition at all levels of the game. Pros could make millions, but if people are limited in their access to the game, your potential talent pool will always be limited. Increasing the interest and exposure will increase that pool of participants. That, in turn increases revenue for the industry.
 
Many people might disagree with me on this point, but I look at the more "exciting" venues of pool such as the gambling halls of the Philippines and the Mosconi Cup and what I see is just that, excitement. As long as professional (or local for that matter) pool players don't allow the people watching around them to drink, cheer and have a good time while the match is going on, i.e. root for their team, people will not gain interest in my personal opinion. I think it's time for us to stop shushing people and have some lively tournaments where people are allowed to, like in the NBA during a free throw, be a part of the match. I think in all honesty that the best in the world could handle it. When people have to learn how to act by getting dirty looks and have to sit quiet, then you are in a situation where you MUST understand the game to have a good time. Cue sports in America needs to allow an atmosphere where you DON'T need to understand fully to have a good time.

The point that plenty of people have made that the children need to be involved in the game younger is also hinged upon what they are exposed to and what their public options are as a youth. With leagues, maybe a valid idea would be to have a "little league" of pool.

The reason I want to see it change is the same as everyone it seems, because I love it.
 
I would just like to see more people exposed to the game I'm passionate about. I mean, millions of people already play at pool, but increased exposure and popularity of the competitive game will expose them to the skill and strategy that makes pool, snooker and billiards so engrossing. Not just bunting the balls about.

I've often wondered if the passion of pool fans is as common as other sports. I know that people get pretty wild about other sports, but I haven't met too many other sports fans that will constantly watch reruns of matches and games in the same way that we do. Not including highlights and documentaries of course.
 
Never let a player continue to be owed $ for yrs. for a pro sanctioned event - where in the pool and billiard magazines say they got paid. People see this and they realize then for sure that the pro players have zero support for themselves or their conningly' pro organization. But hey if your silly enough to put up an entry fee where the $ is not in an escrow account and you don'y know the promoter that well. Then it's your loss.
 
Tramp Steamer said:
I would like to see improvements at the local level. Why people are concerned about the welfare of the professional pool player is beyond me, but I digress.
I would like to see a modern well-lit, up-scale pool room with a strict dress code.
A place with no more than a couple of big screen TVs. One with looping YouTube matches, and the other with available streaming events.
A room with a pleasant decor and plenty of photographs, posters, and various wall art from the world of pool, past and present.
A fully equipped pro-shop with a first-rate cue repair facility.
Employees there would be appropriately dressed, in attire befitting the room. In addition, these employees would not be permitted to drink, or smoke, while on the job.
It would have a well stocked and elegant bar, but enclosed and located away from the tables. Five o'clock drunks would be discouraged, and only wine and beer by the glass would be permitted near the tables.
Music would be non-specific and in the background.
League play would be encouraged, and monthly tournaments would be held with added money provided.
And, after all of this, I'd like to see a pig fly out of my ass. :D
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Why? Because if we're going to spend all the hours we do in a pool hall, I want it to be as nice a pool hall as humanly possible. One to be proud of. Not some hole in the wall piece of shit that smells like an ashtray and is so dark you can't find your way to the restrooms. :cool:
 
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