Why does everybody always knock the APA?

[cuenut]

I played two sessions in APA, and really didn't care about what anybody else's handicap was. I just shot my best all the time. If you lose, you lose. Never had real problems where I was shooting, but I'm sure in bigger cities it is a bigger problem. League operators do make subjective handicapping decisions. The one in my area now is pretty good, but he does have favorites. The biggest problem I had with the APA was the payout. Although some people really relish the trophies, plaques, and patches, I would rather see the money spent locally go back to the local players. The League Operator from my area probably makes $150-200,000 annually off of the league, but the players get crappy trophies, and only a handful of teams get the chance to go to Vegas. When they are chosen, some of their expenses are paid for by the league, but everyone else who has to stay home is left high and dry. I quit because there was no motivation as a player. If you want to become a really good player and learn to play at the upper levels, handicapped league play is probably not the way to go, but if you want to have a few laughs and a good time with friends, leagues may be your answer. I would rather become a great player than stay at the same level and fart around a pool hall waiting to play someone who doesn't know what they are doing.

 

[ScottW]

I'm starting my fourth year with my local APA league. I have to mirror what a bunch of other folks said - I'm a much better shot now than when I joined the league a little over three years ago. I'd kick my old self's butt now.

APA is pretty much, IMHO, on the lower-end of leagues as far as the average skill of the average player. It's a great league to get in to start with, and for many, a great league to stick with. Some folks (and I feel like I'm getting to that point) get to be good enough players that it makes sense for them to move on to BCA/VNEA/TAP.

A lot of folks' experiences with different leagues depend on the league operators and the folks they have managing their leagues, I think. One can have very different experiences with the same league, but with different operators. I myself just went through this lately - while temporarily back home where I grew up, I played some league there, and found it to be fairly different than the league I play in normally. The human factor is a big thing, I think.

 

[CaptainJR]

I wish APA would change cause I'm not playing the league I was in anymore because I don't like races to 1. APA plays a race right? None of the handicap organization in pool do it right in my opinion. I've explained it in detail here before so I'll just make it brief this time. Handicap systems must give the better player an advantage. WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wait and think about what I said. I did say 'handicap', so I don't mean just plain give them an advantage. What I mean is the same thing that is done in golf and bowling. When they are figuring out the handicaps, you only use the best scores (when a player is playing there best). Then you only give them part of that. It gives the lower ranked player a chance to beat the better player if they are having good day and the better player makes a few mistakes.

Maybe I will go into detail so you can understand what I'm talking about. This should give you an understanding because I'll use the extremes in golf.

Player A's last 20 scores - 73, 75, 82, 81,78, 74, 73, 77, 77, 73, 79, 80, 74, 76, 79, 85, 81, 77, 73, 75.
Player A's best 10 scores - 73, 73, 73, 73, 74, 74, 75, 75, 76, 77
Player A's average of their best scores - 74.3. minus par of 72 is 2.3 and that times 94% is 2.1

Player B's last 20 scores - 105 101 107 98 100 102 107 97 110 115 104 101 99 106 102 105 101 105 101 109
Player B's best 10 scores - 97 98 99 100 101 101 101 101 102 102
Player B's average of their best scores - 100.2. minus par of 72 is 28.2 and that times 94% is 26.5

Where the better player gets a little of their due is in the 94% calculation. You can see that the better play gets less taken from their handicap. It isn't much but it gives the better player a little credit for their hard work and ability.

I don't know how this could be applied to pool but I'm sure it could be done.

To the contrary, APA's handicapping system give the advantage to the weaker player. That gives no incentive to get better and encourages sandbagging. Of course the slop pool must also go.

 

[pharaoh68]

My problems with the APA are pretty straightforward. I don't have a problem with sandbaggers. I've been accused ofit myself on more than one occassion. What bothers me are:

A) The overall, overly competitive nature of those involved when most of you yourselves will readily admit that it is supposed to be "fun". Yeah? Then don't take it so seriously.

B) I don't like 8-ball. Whether on a bar table or a 9-footer, I just don't like playing 8 ball. Its not that much fun to me.

C) And I don't like the scoring format of APA 9-ball. Its like playing 9-ball but scoring straight pool and its just weird to me.

JMHO.

 

[hobokenapa]

To the contrary, APA's handicapping system give the advantage to the weaker player. That gives no incentive to get better and encourages sandbagging. Of course the slop pool must also go.

Completely disagree here, at least for 8-ball. SL7s have an enormous advantage as the band is so large, and someone strong in one SL band is always favorite against someone strong in the band below.

 

[pooltchr]

Completely disagree here, at least for 8-ball. SL7s have an enormous advantage as the band is so large, and someone strong in one SL band is always favorite against someone strong in the band below.

I think the handicap system favors the stronger players in 8-ball, but the weaker players in 9-ball. As a 9-ball team captain, I am often tempted to put an sl2 up against a 7. And as a player, the hardest matches for me are against the 2 or 3.
Steve

 

[CaptainJR]

Completely disagree here, at least for 8-ball. SL7s have an enormous advantage as the band is so large, and someone strong in one SL band is always favorite against someone strong in the band below.

I think the handicap system favors the stronger players in 8-ball, but the weaker players in 9-ball. As a 9-ball team captain, I am often tempted to put an sl2 up against a 7. And as a player, the hardest matches for me are against the 2 or 3.
Steve

What I said is based on what the APA told me when I inquired about it. Took 4 emails to get it out of them, but they finally admitted that it is all set up to give the advantage to the weaker player.

 

[axejunkie]

What are the non-APA players' thoughts on the race formats of BCA, TAP, etc.? I play APA and generally enjoy it and would be reluctant to switch to one of those leagues that has races to 1 (can't remember which league does that).

 

[Icon of Sin]

What are the non-APA players' thoughts on the race formats of BCA, TAP, etc.? I play APA and generally enjoy it and would be reluctant to switch to one of those leagues that has races to 1 (can't remember which league does that).

I think that is BCA 8 ball. Not sure though, I never shot it. I shot APA 8 ball and TAP 8 ball and they both have full races depending on your skill level. I stopped shooting league 8 ball in general and only shoot 9 ball now twice a week on APA leagues.

 

[Andrew Manning]

Does anyone know of any APA Masters leagues in the Northern Virginia area? I play APA 8-ball, and if it was close enough to home, I'd consider switching to masters to see if it helps my game, since I assume it's mostly made up of better players. I definitely prefer playing against stronger players, since I think sometimes I develop bad habits playing some of the weaker players; strategies that work against someone with poor cueball control, but would backfire against a better player.

-Andrew

 

[DoomCue]

Does anyone know of any APA Masters leagues in the Northern Virginia area? I play APA 8-ball, and if it was close enough to home, I'd consider switching to masters to see if it helps my game, since I assume it's mostly made up of better players. I definitely prefer playing against stronger players, since I think sometimes I develop bad habits playing some of the weaker players; strategies that work against someone with poor cueball control, but would backfire against a better player.

-Andrew

Check out this map: http://www.poolplayers.com/locator/view_lo.asp?id=33

If you're WAY northern VA, like close to Winchester or DC, they have Master's divisions. Lee Tiani is the LO there (he's got a huge region) and he could probably point you in the right direction. His contact info is on the map linked above.

-djb

 

[JDB]

Completely disagree here, at least for 8-ball. SL7s have an enormous advantage as the band is so large, and someone strong in one SL band is always favorite against someone strong in the band below.

I have to agree with hoboken here... The APA handicapping system definitely favors the stronger person in 8-ball. You will rarely see a SL7 lose to a much lower rated person (ie., SL2 - SL4). The system gives games on the wire to the lower ranked person and most SL7's can give away the weight pretty easily against a weaker player.

9-ball is an entirely different story though because 9-ball is harder... But seriously, the way 9-ball in the APA is handicapped, based on my experience, it does favor the weaker player and you will see many more instances were a low rated player (SL2 or SL3) will beat an SL7 - 9.

 

[hobokenapa]

You will rarely see a SL7 lose to a much lower rated person (ie., SL2 - SL4). The system gives games on the wire to the lower ranked person and most SL7's can give away the weight pretty easily against a weaker player.

I found games against strong SL4s on bar tables pretty tough. In a 5-2 race, an SL4 can easily run out 6 or 7 balls to win a rack. My winning percentage as an SL7 on bar tables was 74% over 100+ matches. However, since switching to 9ft tables, my winning percentage is 100% (14-0) with only one opponent getting to the hill (an SL2!). Do other SL7s find their winning percentage much higher on regulation tables?

 

[Rodney]

Man, just tell it like you see it.

Sadly I don't disagree with much of what you say but you are generalizing quite a bit. I've learned to just have fun with it and try to teach new players who express an interest in being taught. Not to mention there are no BCA leagues in my area.

I will say the one and only time I have been to Vegas it left a real bad taste in my mouth. There were going to be two teams from MA in the finals until the league operators raised the handi-caps of a team so that they not only could not play in the finals, they were disqualified. The other team from MA was so hurt by being raised that they could only play 3 guys in the finals which meant if they even lost one it was over.

So basically it is a night out for me and a chance to compete. For real competition I am going to start playing in Open tournaments once in a while. That's how to really learn.

Koop

Koop, just saw this post. That was our 9 ball team lol. We were supposed to play against our friends team, but they got disqualified, and we got to pay a team from canada. Coincidently, i believe molson was the sponsor that year. We played our worst player first in the finals, so we would lose. If we did happen to win, we would have been disqualified for having 3 people move up 1 handicap point.

 

[Cory in DC]

I have to agree with hoboken here... The APA handicapping system definitely favors the stronger person in 8-ball. You will rarely see a SL7 lose to a much lower rated person (ie., SL2 - SL4).

I agree -- APA races don't begin to even things out. That's the main reason that there's a 23 rule -- a team of solid 6's and 7's, or even a team of just legitimate 6's, would roll over any regular APA team (the other reason for the rule is to expand the league by forcing teams to bring in new low-level players).

The closest thing to an even race is probably the 5-2 spot that 4's get from 7's, because 4's can run out now and then and even play a nice safety once in a while.

Cory

 

[Cory in DC]

Does anyone know of any APA Masters leagues in the Northern Virginia area? I play APA 8-ball, and if it was close enough to home, I'd consider switching to masters to see if it helps my game, since I assume it's mostly made up of better players. I definitely prefer playing against stronger players, since I think sometimes I develop bad habits playing some of the weaker players; strategies that work against someone with poor cueball control, but would backfire against a better player.

-Andrew

I'm trying to start one at Buffalo Billiards in DC. I'm not sure if that counts the NVA area, though. If it goes through it will be on Tuesday nights, concurrent with the regular league matches. The first night will be tonight, if all goes well. It looks like it will be around 60% 6s and 40% 7s.

Cory

 

[renard]

I think one of the reasons is because the APA has a commanding voice among league systems. They're the oldest organized amateur association, so they deserve that voice. Unfortunately, they're organization is replete with accusations of sandbagging and overall handicap "issues."

I know they've retooled thier Equalizer Handicap system with a tweak here and there, but I think they'd be much better to bite the bullet and give their entire system an overhaul and do something that is closer to the other leagues (VNEA, BCA Pool League).

Using World Standardized rules as a starte would only help their cause. We need unity, not division in our sport.

Fred

I agree with Fred on this. The APA handicap does not work as well as VNEA, & BCA.

 

[Gregg]

A) The overall, overly competitive nature of those involved when most of you yourselves will readily admit that it is supposed to be "fun". Yeah? Then don't take it so seriously.
JMHO.

Very well put. A lot of people could benefit from that comment.

Some things about APA;

People should be reminded that APA is a profit making organization. They cater to the masses, and do a good job of it. Who are the masses within their ranks? The SL3 and SL4s make up the majority of the league.

Consider that they only have team numbers up to 23, WITH jacked up numbers. For example, I am a SL5 in APA, but a SL3 in TAP, where team numbers go up to 25. You can see from that right there what leage attracts the skill shooters.

APA knows who butters their bread. They don't want SL6 and SL7 to be able to steamroll the competition and take over the league. That's not what it's about. It's about being able to make lower end shooters have fun in a competitive environment.

They are smart enough to realize, like a lot of pool rooms who hold small weekly tournaments should realize, is that if one person/team continues to dominate, then people are not going to show up for very long.

 

[Koop]

Koop, just saw this post. That was our 9 ball team lol. We were supposed to play against our friends team, but they got disqualified, and we got to pay a team from canada. Coincidently, i believe molson was the sponsor that year. We played our worst player first in the finals, so we would lose. If we did happen to win, we would have been disqualified for having 3 people move up 1 handicap point.

That was a travesty.
I remember the other team had a guy go up two handicaps right before the finals and I can tell you from watching him that it was total BS. He was a good player but should not have been bumped to a 6.

It's been a while so you may not remember me, especially under the circumstances, but I spoke with all of you guys because I was really looking forward to an all MA finals. My team took 9th and I remember both your team and the other team being very supportive of us along the way too.

Looking forward to meeting you again in valley Forge.

Koop

 

[slanidrac16]

I see no reason to knock it.

Is it a perfect system or organization? Of coarse not. What would I change? Well , I would bump up the "23" rule to 25. that would allow a team to play a 7,6,5,4,and a 3. Everyone must understand that this is a handicap league with an objective of giving every player a chance to compete and a chance to win.
The biggest problem with a handicap of any kind is that somebody will always try and circumvent the system. The same thing happens in bowling. We can all help this situation a bit by marking all safe and defensive shots. Many of the teams we play NEVER and I mean NEVER mark a defensive shot.
Perhaps APA should add 1 more level to the system. I don't know how much more anyone could do to refine this system. I've never played BCA or TAP, so I'm unfamiliar with their system.
I've been playing apa for 1 1/2 years and I find it very enjoyable. I am somewhat befuddled how the players level is determined. I am currently at a level 5 but I've played 5's that are much better than me. I've played 4's that are every bit as good as me and I've played 6's that I felt weren't worthy of a level 6.
In closing , although the system is not perfect, it does allow for a meaningful competiton that get the competitive juices flowing. Will my team ever make it to VEgas? Probably not. But we're going to keep trying.