why does "pivot english" work

[rufus]

I heard of backhand english a long time ago, but have just recently learned how to use it. It has come in handy on shots that I would have normally missed using my regular method of applying english. I haven’t practiced it very much, but I have figured out a few things that really helps when applying it (for me).

The shot that Andy used in his article talking about deflection and grip hand, where the cue ball is on the head string spot and the object ball is frozen on the middle of the foot rail, is the shot that I talking about below. When using maximum parallel english I have to aim almost a half ball hit to cut or spin the ball into the corner pocket. When I use back hand english I just aim for both edges of the balls to miss each other by a hair (no compensation) and I can make this shot consistently using method.

Sometimes when I wanted to use high right or left with backhand english, I would have trouble with the rail hitting my cue when I lowered my backhand. So instead of lining up with middle ball, I would line up with follow and then pivot my backhand. The same goes for draw shots with backhand english.

People who have any elevation in their stroke at all will have a very hard time using BHE. When shooting with a medium hard to hard stroke I never have to compensate. I shoot it just as if I am shooting with middle ball. I haven’t tried using different cues either other than my wife’s and mine.

 

[CaptainJR]

There is no 'magic' formula in adjusting for deflection when applying side spin to the cue ball. You all need to understand how to adjust and then adjust based on your own stroke. If I apply a certain amount of left spin on the cue ball, and I adjust my aim a certain amount to the left, by whatever means (pivot, shift, etc), I can tell you exactly how much I adjusted but it will not work for you. Similarly, you can tell me exactly how much you adjust for a certain amount of english, and it will not work for me. We have different strokes. We have different sticks, we bridge differently, we hold the butt of the cue stick differently, we come through the cue ball differently, etc. It is important to understand the fundamentals here. If you use left english, you need to adjust your aim more to the left to account for the deflection. Exactly how much is something that you need to practice and figure out for yourself.

I think Andy has the key here. I guess you could say 'Well JR, it's easy to agree with someone like Andy, who's replies on here have helped many and been so on the money'. Yes, that is true but I thought I'd put here why my own experience sort of backs that up.

I think my stroke backs up Andy's opinion that it is a very individual thing because I think the way I deal with side spin is maybe a little peculiar to me. But since I don't think I'm that peculiar a player, maybe what I've discovered might help someone on there way to determining the best way for them to handle this sidespin issue.

OK, here it is and for me it is this simple. Because if I don't adhere to this, I miss the shot. If I'm using natural english, I use parallel. If I'm using reverse english. I use pivot. That's it. If I do it this way, I seem to be able to judge my aim correction for the amount of deflection I'm going to get.

I can very on this some if I'm not using much side spin, but if I'm using more than a little side spin this is how I do it.

 

[rufus]

I think Andy has the key here. I guess you could say 'Well JR, it's easy to agree with someone like Andy, who's replies on here have helped many and been so on the money'. Yes, that is true but I thought I'd put here why my own experience sort of backs that up.

I think my stroke backs up Andy's opinion that it is a very individual thing because I think the way I deal with side spin is maybe a little peculiar to me. But since I don't think I'm that peculiar a player, maybe what I've discovered might help someone on there way to determining the best way for them to handle this sidespin issue.

OK, here it is and for me it is this simple. Because if I don't adhere to this, I miss the shot. If I'm using natural english, I use parallel. If I'm using reverse english. I use pivot. That's it. If I do it this way, I seem to be able to judge my aim correction for the amount of deflection I'm going to get.

I can very on this some if I'm not using much side spin, but if I'm using more than a little side spin this is how I do it.

Have you noticed when you are using the pivot method with outside english it seems that you are cutting the ball too thin. The reason for using the pivot method is so you don't have to adjust, but it you use outside and a medium to slow speed you will throw the object ball out of the pocket. If you shoot hard you will have less throw and not have to compensate. That is why I try to only use it when shooting hard (which I'd rather not have to do).

 

[Colin Colenso]

Earlier in this thread someone was trying to say how different reactions were obtained using pivot english versus parallel english.

Actually they are identical.


Ok. Here is an experiment for you. Let's see if you get identical results.

Using maximum pivot and maximum parallel english, draw the ball back to the rail and see where the cueball ends up. The results in this shot are staggeringly different for me, with the parallel English the cueball spins way down table, with the pivot it barely goes anywhere. Following, is opposite in results for me, I can spin the cue ball anywhere on the table with pivot but get nowhere near the same result with parallel.

The people who teach pivot English would get a good laugh from someone saying it is identical to parallel.

Wayne

To be perfectly clear, using pivot english limits the amount of english you can put on the ball. You can hit further to the side of the cueball if you move the bridgehand slightly to the side of where you would if your bridge is alligned to a centre ball hit.

But essentially, you can slide up to what is erroneously called a 'parallel english' shot and your bridge hand, cue position and line is identical to what it is after you use the backhand approach. You just reach the same position two different ways.

For extreme side, I recommend tossing out the backhand pivot method and experimenting with the placement of the bridgehand slightly to the side of where you'd normally place it.

btw: Teachers may laugh at plenty of ideas. Most of them have only an elimentary understanding of pool physics.

 

[Razor_Blade]

why does pivot english work?

I don`t know, or really care how it works. The most important thing is that it does work. It`s no magic bullet, more like another tool to add to the box.

It took me only a short time to learn that it doesn`t work on all shots. I have a harder time judging throw with back hand. It`s not much help to me on shorter shots.

The increase in accuracy on long inside english shots, with back hand was amazing for me. I would definetly consider learning, and using back hand english as an advancement in ones game.

BTW The cue ball after contact does seem to react different to me.

Later,
Mark

 

[ramdadingdong]

The highest average Hoppe ever had in a tournament was 1.33. In the recent Crystal Kelly Tournament in Monaco, the average for the whole field was 1.755 and the WORST player averaged over 1.33. Carom billiards has come a long way since the 1930s.

A. D. Moore tried to analyze Hoppe's stroke from a series of stop-action photos taken by Gjon Mili with equipment from Harold Edgerton that appeared in Life Magazine. Some of these also appear in Hoppe's "Billiards As It Should Be Played," which is still in print. Sadly, Moore tried to do his analysis without knowing the timing parameters of the equiment and later admitted that one of his main conclusions was wrong. Moore did make some useful observations.

Hoppe was blessed/cursed with a side-arm stroke because he started playing at such a young age. I think we will agree that a side-arm stroke has nothing to recommend it to the adult player. Cochran also started with a side-arm stroke but fixed it at some point in his career. There are those who feel Cochran was a better 3-C player than Hoppe, and Hoppe certainly didn't dominate 3-C. Cochran came straight through on the stroke, or so I was told by Bud Harris.

_______________________________________________________________

Bobby Jones won golf tourneys shooting 74's, today you need to shoot a 64 to win. Hoppe outplayed all of his competition in his era, comparing his averages to todays is of course ridiculous. Compare Jones scores and stroke average to Tiger Woods, that is just as silly.


Bob, there is nothing in the AD moore thesis on the Mili photos, there were 200 physics professors observing him in person for a weekend, that is what most of that study was on, I have the thesis. When they changed over to 3-cushion, Hoppe continued to dominate, he was one of the top 3 at all time, that is dominating any sport. He dominated in 5 full decades.
A side arm stroke has nothing to recommend, tell that to Willie Hoppe, Ralph Greenleaf or Jake Sheafer Jr, or to Keith McCreedy. How do you explain that 3 of the top 10 greatest players ever, were side saddle.

Fast Larry